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Ragnar_the_Blue

How do I fit Shoretroopers and Snowtroopers in the same Army?

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Yeah, swapping out the guys on the E-Web is pretty easy.  I have very limited kitbashing skills, and I managed it.  Skull Forge is another great option.  Of the three E-Webs teams I have, none of them, including the one that has the original guys, is done up to look like they're in an arctic environment. 

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21 minutes ago, Yodhrin said:

Personally I've got one eye on Legion, but I'm mostly in this for the sake of having loads of decent quality Star Wars figures - there are plenty more games & RPGs out there I can use them in, so I collect based on how things "should" be based on either canon or headcanon(eg, my Stormtrooper units are organised in batches of ten with a Sergeant, Corporal, weapon specialist, and seven regular troopers, but I favour the "hostile environment trooper" explanation referenced above for "Snowtroopers") and I have no qualms at all about using "unofficial" models, model kits, third party stuff etc, where FFG can't provide.

With you here, these figures would look great for Imperial Assault or RPG's like Edge of the Empire. 

I get Snowtroopers as Hostile Environment Troopers, but I also like to think that, with their flamethrowers and close range ion guns, that these guys are intended for cracking fortified enemy emplacements or bases (like Echo Base!). 

Maybe all those robes are meant to be flame-proof? 

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10 minutes ago, FearofaBlankPlanet said:

With you here, these figures would look great for Imperial Assault or RPG's like Edge of the Empire. 

I get Snowtroopers as Hostile Environment Troopers, but I also like to think that, with their flamethrowers and close range ion guns, that these guys are intended for cracking fortified enemy emplacements or bases (like Echo Base!). 

Maybe all those robes are meant to be flame-proof? 

That's why I see them as expeditionary forces. These are the guys you send in first, with gear that can handle any environment - they crack the enemy, then the Empire follows them up with Stormtroopers in, where required, environment-modified equipment. Over time, the structure of an Imperial force on a subjugated world would vary - if it's super-hostile but valuable, they might get a permanent garrison of HEV Troopers, maybe even stationed in orbit on a station or Star Destroyer and only going down to the surface when necessary; in most cases the HEV units would withdraw to recover and be redeployed to the next battlefront, while the garrison on the planet would depend on its utility. A big important Core World gets Stormtroopers for big important areas and facilities, and large units of Patrol Troopers to reinforce any local police forces. Somewhere less public but still of military significance would also get regular STs, but probably more concentrated around the parts the Empire cares about with the rest of the world left to fend for itself save for periodic loyalty checks etc. A proper backwater would draw down the initial ST presence and replace them with a modest garrison of Imperial Army raised from local loyalists(or imported, if it's a mostly non-human world), probably backed by a decent size ISB presence with some COMPForce-monitored ST squads for muscle.

No, I don't spend far too much time thinking about the fictional background for my wee toy sodjers, why do you ask? 😂

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Okay..  so people want a thematic reason for having both?   Well here is one; why not an arctic or tundra world that has biodomes set up on it, that house different environments within?   You could easily have a force field that keeps out the harsh cold, and keeps in the sweltering heat.   

I’ve seen a table that had a lush green area sectioned off by walls, the “outside” of the wall had a desert.   

I'm considering making a table like that.   

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, FearofaBlankPlanet said:

Maybe all those robes are meant to be flame-proof? 

Yup. Or weather or chemical resistant. I'm working on a D6 Star Wars adventure around a new Imperial chemical weapon.

Edited by Sharkbelly

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Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2019 at 5:29 PM, Zrob314 said:

1) Tell that to the Gamorrean guards that Luke FORCE CHOKED in the beginning of ROTJ

2) perhaps you have heard of The Battle of Coruscant

3) Okay, so while Veers isn't shown on screen, I seem to recall all of the others being on Bespin at the same time and lots of blasters being shot.

4) I'm sorry, but I am really amazed at this failure of imagination.  You're basically accepting 1980 Kenner marketing as an immutable fact and insisting that tese troops can ONLY operate in snow.  Not Cold, SNOW.  I hadn't read your WEG assumption yet, that is addressed below.  You're making assumptions about how well insulated these uniforms are (for all three kinds).  This is a military of hundreds of billions of persons, operating in every kind of climate and condition imaginable.  Maybe expand your imagination, just a little bit.  

Perhaps you have not understood or you don't want to, I'll explain better:

1- You are right about Luke Skywalker choking, but this was simply an example, let's use another one:

you wouldn't give Chewbacca force powers and allow him to make a force choke, isn't it? That would be against fluff, and as such, I consider inventing things for snowtroopers. That's what I meant, you sure knew it, but hey, I will not get tired of explain myself till I make myself clear.

2- In the battle of Coruscant we didn't have an emperor throwing lightning bolts at enemies, during that battle, he just stayed kidnapped and only took part in a rescue mission... and he was the hostage. Again you sure knew what I meant and it is a pity that I have to explain it twice.

3- Again, hate to repeat, but do you consider what happened at bespin a battle? I could concede you it is a squirmish... but without normal or average rebel troops... where's the battle? This is exactly the problem with legion: Bespin should be a combat scaled for Imperial Assault, not for Legion, but of course, they said it was going to be a battle scaled game and then began to give us commanders and operatives... so you could plan on doing Bespin as a battle... what? Look, the only thing I consider a battle in Star Wars films are: battle for Naboo, Geonosis, the battles we see during order 66, Hoth, Endor, Scariff, Yavin (only space battle)... and that's all, I think. What happens for example in ANH in Death Star involves Leia, Luke, Chewie, Kenobi, Han, Vader, Tarkin... and lots of stormtroopers, and there's a lot of blaster fire, but definitely is not a battle. Again I would say that you already knew what I am talking about.

4- Got a lot of imagination, but as I said before, according to secondary beliefs in persistent worlds (that theory that Mr. JRR Tolkien had about how a CONSISTENT world gives realism to the story) the details have to stay the same so that you believe accordingly that the world presented is real. Read my post about it up there. You can imagine lots of things, but as I said, I PREFER to have a thematic army... the rest of the way I play (the mission, the background, the objectives...) can be as imaginative as you want (in fact you don't know how do i work that aspects of a gameplay, whenever I play with friends I even send them by mail a map (photoshop) of the battle zone (with real photographs of my terrain and scenery) and a short story explaining the mission and WHY and WHO and WHAT are they doing. I can only ONCE imagine the snowtroopers are there for some obscure random event... the rest of the times it will be stupid to see them in Endor.

I would do a lot of things, I can even make a thematic Hoth army, painted red, and say they are a special harsh environment group that has fallen from a stolen spaceship, or that they are aliens from the planet that once stole imperial material from a lost Imperial ship, or that the are space pirates or whatever, but... I CAN'T make a NORMAL THEMED army without repeating at least three times the same stormtrooper miniatures, and I wouldn't mind to do it if at least they were multipose, so that my army is customized, but build the same miniatures again with the same poses is BORING.

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:47 PM, Zrob314 said:

*citation needed

WEG  was not canon or "approved by Lucas himself" other than that they were given a license to make it.   They were't allowed to write about the clone wars but otherwise they had to stay within a style guide.  

"According to Zahn, Lou Aronica of Bantam Spectra had negotiated the book deal with Lucasfilm in 1989, and the publisher put Zahn's name at the top of their list of possible authors. He said, "My original instructions from LucasArts[sic] consisted of exactly two rules: the books were to start 3–5 years after Return of the Jedi, and I couldn't use anyone who'd been explicitly killed off in the movies.""  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrawn_trilogy

Lucasfilm also just stomped all over plenty of stuff EU authors wrote.  Seriously, George Lucas had a ton of other stuff on his plate, he wasn't spending his time pouring over whether the Black Ice or Starfall adventures fit into the stories he envisioned.  He just cared if the checks cleared.  I mean seriously, Kevin J Anderson wrote that Luke could force poke people in their brains and figure out if they were force sensitive or not. Joruus C'baoth  led everyone to believe that the clone wars was a war about whether or not cloning should be a thing....rather than it being a war that was fought on behalf of the republic by clones.  

 

Give this a read. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-secrets-of-writing-good-star-wars-according-to-wes-1765739282

 

Look, I read about "obi-wan kenobi throwing Darth Vader into a molten lava pit" in  weg role playing game in 1990, WAY BEFORE George Lucas himself wrote Episode III script.

Here:

https://davescorneroftheuniverse.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/how-the-west-end-games-rpg-changed-the-star-wars-expanded-universe/

You can read that Lucas himself recommended Timothy Zahn to read West End Games material to enrich its knowledge of the expanded universe, it reads:

"In what many see as an uncharacteristic move, Lucas pretty much let the game makers run with his creation, and name and detail the many cameo races and characters. He did on occasion over rule them, such as with the back story of Boba Fett and the history of the Mon Calamari, but in most cases, he was happy to let the game designers build in his sand box.

The RPG got a big shot of legitimacy when the man entrusted with the growth of the EU novel’s Timothy Zahn, was given a set of rules to help him with his ground-breaking novels the Grand Admiral Thawn series. These stories brought many movie fans in to the fold of the Star Wars book geeks and resulted in the juggernaut that was the pre-Disney Expanded Universe. He used the games back stories as a jumping off point for his novels which was in turn passed on to other writers of the novels."

If this doesn't mean that lucas himself approved that expanded universe created by WEG...

But you got also that figure that you mention, Pablo Hidalgo... he is perhaps the person that knows more perfectly than any one in the world the Star wars canon, he served as Internet Content Manager for Lucas Online, the division of Lucasfilm responsible for maintaining StarWars.com, and even J. J. Abrams admitted that "during the production of Star Wars: The Force Awakens he often e-mailed Hidalgo up to three times a day asking him questions about details about the franchise's universe."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Hidalgo

Do you know how it all began? In 1987 he became a fan of WEG RPG "the only official source of Star Wars content in the late 1980s and took it upon himself to become knowledgeable of the universe to create better stories for the group of friends he was playing it with." This is were that "style guide" comes from. THAT guide was also in my WEG rpg... I learnt how to master games 30 years ago with that book and that recommendations...

https://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/original-star-wars-script-and-90s-style-guide-tweet-their-way-online-1648866/

words like:

Star wars has got elevators, not lifts, has got blasters, not pistols, has got droids, not robots... were from WEG RPG back in the late 80's

Or sentences like: Star Wars is not big, is huge... one civilization would need a millennia to obtain the energy needed to make ONE single hyperspace jump for a star destroyer...

are from WEG RPG...

And right now Kathleen kennedy accepts Hidalgo as a consultant when Disney needs advice. Some call them the "Yoda from Lucasfilm", due to his knowledge... and read here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3739-How-a-RPG-Changed-the-Star-Wars-Universe

How a rpg (WEG) changed the star wars universe. Names like twi'lek, Inquisitor, ISB, Imperial Army, Imperial Navy, Sienar Fleet Systems... ALL are WEG creations, and Lucas gave them complete freedom to write and create and he read all the material to make corrections when needed, simply because star wars was dead by 1987, and thanks to WEG and Lucasarts, George Lucas managed to survive untill prequels were a reality.

From the link up here:

" Of particular import is the possibility of transmedia spinoffs, which was not as common in the 80s as it is today. The importance of a game bible would be a turning point for Star Wars when Timothy Zahn wrote Heir to the Empire, which picked up where Return of the Jedi left off:

Zahn was actually given the RPG sourcebook material to use as reference when he wrote his novel. “The way I heard it, Zahn was insulted by this at first,” says Slavicsek. “But then he figured that it was better to use our material as a resource rather than have to create a bunch off stuff from scratch.”


Zahn later said in an interview, as quoted in Designers & Dragons - the 80s:
 

“The Star Wars movies themselves are always my basic source of ‘real’ knowledge. Supplementing that is a tremendous body of background material put together by West End Games over the years for their Star Wars role playing game. The WEG source books saved me from having to reinvent the wheel many times in writing Heir [to the Empire].”
 
Things progressed from there:

 

Lucasfilm was emboldened by Zahn’s success. The computer game wing, LucasArts, was gaining a reputation for making quality games in the early 90’s and finally turned its attention to Star Wars with the classics X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Several of the ships in this game series, like the Assault Shuttle, first appeared in the pages of the Star Wars RPG. A close scan of the credits for TIE Fighter even shows a thank you to West End for supplying materials. West End took a page from LucasArts and offered an opportunity to play Imperial characters in its Heroes and Rogues supplement.


The impact of West End Games' work reverberates even in other role-playing games:
 

The influence of the RPG was felt even after the game moved from West End to Wizards of the Coast. One of the most popular Star Wars comics during this time was Knights of the Old Republic. Wizards of the Coast got the author of the comic, John Jackson Miller, to work on the sourcebook for the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG. Saga Edition detailed many of the different eras of the Star Wars Expanded Universe since the first series of Zahn novels, even offering a starship sourcebook that authors used to describe the interiors of favorite ships like the Imperial shuttle.
 
 
And now FFG arrives and we have to change the lore just because they don't want to give us the units we need...

 

 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, TalkPolite said:

I can’t believe I just read that. 

Plastic. Toys. 

That's why you failed to theme your army... because you didn't believe it... XDDD

That plastic toys are almost TWICE expensive simply because they "follow" that star wars brand... so the fluff is also expensive...

Edited by Tubb

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No, I fit my fluff to what I have. That’s why I run snows as hazard weather troopers, the 143rd BN “Doom of Yavin” would need them in the dense swamps of the planet they would invade if the empire required them to do so. 

Fit the fluff to what’s out there. I don’t make the game, so I’m not gonna make demands of FFG. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, TalkPolite said:

No, I fit my fluff to what I have. That’s why I run snows as hazard weather troopers, the 143rd BN “Doom of Yavin” would need them in the dense swamps of the planet they would invade if the empire required them to do so. 

Fit the fluff to what’s out there. I don’t make the game, so I’m not gonna make demands of FFG. 

I love the way you adapt, but to fit the fluff to the game is NOT how it should work, isn't it?

Specially a lore so well created, stablished and known as Star wars, isn't it?

What would happen if in Journeys of middle earth game the designers of the game would have included a giant spider as a hero character? would be strange... you can imagine that it is a charmed elf or... yes you can imagine a lot of things... but, wouldn't it be better to include a ranger or an elf or a dwarf? (as they have done??)

In my opinion, following the lore, and simply including the CANONICAL expanded universe, the most common option would have been to do, after the stromtroopers:

- Imperial Army troopers

- Imperial naval troopers

And after a year or so... then you can do snowtroopers, another snowtroopers as veterans (alt sculpts, alt weapons?) a speeder bike with an snowtrooper... and then you give the players also rebel soldiers form hoth, and Veterans from Hoth, and tauntauns... then you call it the HOTH UNLEASHES EXPANSION or whatever stupid thing you want and even make a ruleset, and a snowy mat, dedicated terrain...this is how every other miniature game does things.

Edited by Tubb

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Fitting the fluff to the game has been one of the most entertaining parts of the game for me. 

They did what they thought would sell first, and what made sense for balance second, and what fit cannon third (best guess here, I don’t work for the mouse/FFG). Sorry if it’s not how you would have done it, but it’s how this is going down. 

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On 4/16/2019 at 12:11 AM, Tonytt1642 said:

Don't think of them as snow troopers. Think of them as hostile environment troopers....

And with short furry death lurking in every tree, and behind every bush, it doesn't get more hostile than Endor! 

 

I think I recall someone painting Snowies in a jungle camo scheme. 

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While I love what West End Games did for Star Wars (Star Wars would probably not be what it is today if it was not for their passion) and I played oh so many game of their RPG either as a player or GM, their approach to the lore in the movie was actually pretty narrow.

Rodians were good bounty hunters simply because Greedo was one; T'wilek girl were slaves because of the dancers in Jabba's Palace; Wookies were good mecanics with a high sense of loyalty because of Chewie; Trandoshans were hunters because of Bossk; Hutts were crime lords because of Jabba; etc, etc, etc

So it's no wonders that the troopers seen at Hoth became simply Snowtroopers, Different outfit+snow=Simply Snowtroopers.

But since then, the lore expended. And now, Snowtroopers are not just snowtroopers, as seen in Star wars 38, operating on Jedha:

52kyDD5.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Tubb said:

I would do a lot of things, I can even make a thematic Hoth army, painted red, and say they are a special harsh environment group that has fallen from a stolen spaceship, or that they are aliens from the planet that once stole imperial material from a lost Imperial ship, or that the are space pirates or whatever, but... I CAN'T make a NORMAL THEMED army without repeating at least three times the same stormtrooper miniatures, and I wouldn't mind to do it if at least they were multipose, so that my army is customized, but build the same miniatures again with the same poses is BORING.

If you want to limit yourself to a thematic Hoth army, a self imposed limitation, fine. But, note that the canon doesn't even provide you with a lot of option for units. AT-ATs, AT-ST, Snowtroopers, E-webs, Vader, and ZERO special weapons in the Snowtroopers (only canon mention of Flametroopers being deployed on Hoth was a speculation by a Rebel pilot, so not really canon). While Veers was at the Battle of Hoth, there is no evidence he ever got out of his AT-AT. 

The models not being poseable has been discussed many times, but customization is fairly simple given the soft plastic. Even with variable poses, the army isn't going to look significantly different at a distance since they're all identical in equipment and wearing helmets. 

9 hours ago, Tubb said:

I love the way you adapt, but to fit the fluff to the game is NOT how it should work, isn't it?

Specially a lore so well created, stablished and known as Star wars, isn't it?

What would happen if in Journeys of middle earth game the designers of the game would have included a giant spider as a hero character? would be strange... you can imagine that it is a charmed elf or... yes you can imagine a lot of things... but, wouldn't it be better to include a ranger or an elf or a dwarf? (as they have done??)

In my opinion, following the lore, and simply including the CANONICAL expanded universe, the most common option would have been to do, after the stromtroopers:

- Imperial Army troopers

- Imperial naval troopers

And after a year or so... then you can do snowtroopers, another snowtroopers as veterans (alt sculpts, alt weapons?) a speeder bike with an snowtrooper... and then you give the players also rebel soldiers form hoth, and Veterans from Hoth, and tauntauns... then you call it the HOTH UNLEASHES EXPANSION or whatever stupid thing you want and even make a ruleset, and a snowy mat, dedicated terrain...this is how every other miniature game does things.

Yes it IS how it should work. A competitive miniature wargame is a vastly different kettle of fish to a non-competitive board game (competitive here being used to refer to tournaments). Even more, Journeys is a Cooperative board game where you take on roles from the books/films, or other characters that FFG made up in situations some of which FFG made up, with results that aren't necessarily what happened in canon. The game provides us with tools to create an army. If you want to just create canonical armies, there are tools to do that, especially since there isn't much variation in the canonical forces we see on screen/in comics. If you want to create "what if" armies, you are also welcome to do that. 

A "snowtrooper" on a speederbike would be even more against the "lore" than allowing us to create whatever armies we want, since there is no canonical evidence that I know of for that armour being used on speederbikes.

That's NOT how every other miniature game does things. GW for the most part now only releases one box to represent a specific unit (and sometimes an easy build option). They sometimes sell upgrade packs separately, or just include decals. Warmahordes only releases a single box, except for the rare "Extreme" model. 

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I love theming my armies, whatever game I'm playing. Sometimes that's easier said than done, and unfortunately Legion is one of those times. It's easy enough to handwave Snowtroopers away as grenadiers/engineers/HEV troopers or whatever though, and just giving them a base scheme consistent with the rest of your force goes a long way to tying them in:

file.png

And of course, using a slightly tan colour for the coats allows you to do the same with the Shoretroopers, tying them in as well. Shoretroopers of course, not being limited to coastal regions, but rather anywhere where freedom of movement might be important such as swamps, dense forest, etc. Kind of like a hybrid scout unit. Now, it gets a little squiffy since the Shoretroopers use an element of camouflage in their armour, which begs the question why don't other troops? Scout troopers in particular look like they could benefit from some camouflage. Maybe the snowtroopers DO use camo armour, but we only ever saw them on Hoth so we couldn't tell?

And it'd be nice to have variant troopers for the heavy weapons, but I think it's fair to say that would be sunk money on FFGs end, and for those of us really bugged by it we can always pick something up from shapeways.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If you want to limit yourself to a thematic Hoth army, a self imposed limitation, fine. But, note that the canon doesn't even provide you with a lot of option for units. AT-ATs, AT-ST, Snowtroopers, E-webs, Vader, and ZERO special weapons in the Snowtroopers (only canon mention of Flametroopers being deployed on Hoth was a speculation by a Rebel pilot, so not really canon). While Veers was at the Battle of Hoth, there is no evidence he ever got out of his AT-AT. 

The models not being poseable has been discussed many times, but customization is fairly simple given the soft plastic. Even with variable poses, the army isn't going to look significantly different at a distance since they're all identical in equipment and wearing helmets. 

It is not a self imposed limitation, I MUST deploy terrain dependent units (snowtroopers or shoretroopers) if i don't want to repeat corps, while there's at least two units not dependent (navy and naval troopers) to choose from the films, and that's odd. By the way, you are confused, TauntaunScout is the one that wanted to make a Hoth army, not me XDDDD 

And regarding weapons, you got exactly the same limitation with every other star wars unit, let's face it, the expanded universe is something that is needed, and they know it perfectly, or they wouldn't have placed a rebel fit old clone wars AT-RT in the starter set!

The problem with snowtrooper not having special weapons has been perfectly solved in Battlefront videogames... they also consider, as the WEG RPG CANONICAL book says, that an snowtrooper is just a stormtrooper with a different uniform, so every weapon or special weapon given to a normal stormtrooper is also available for a snowtrooper. The problem with snowtroopers begins when you try to convince everyone that they are a separate corp with diferent characteristics from that of the stormtrooper simply because their uniform is different... it is false: a snowtrooper is an stormtrooper dressed for success in harsh environment (Jedha, Hoth, Mygeeto...) and that's all. When you transform a specific gear used for a soldier into an excuse to consider him a separate corp, you are facing problems because you are stretching the known lore.

It doesn't make any sense, diferent equipment is not a diferent unit. Following the bolt action example, would you name the USA G.I.'s with normal robes "american soldiers" and USA soldiers with long jacket for winter "winter american soldiers"  and would you give them diferent stats because they got a different jacket?????? And if you do, that would mean that winter unit is highly specialized in winter combat, so it wouldn't make any sense to place them with their short jacket comrades. Come on, it is a COSMETIC difference that they have turned into a special unit. It is an excuse to make a diferent unit while they had lots to choose (even just using the films as source!)

13 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

A "snowtrooper" on a speederbike would be even more against the "lore" than allowing us to create whatever armies we want, since there is no canonical evidence that I know of for that armour being used on speederbikes.

First, if you consider them stormtroopers with winter gear, of course they could use a speeder bike. Considering "a diferent unit from stormtroopers that don't have the same weapons and have access to flamethrowers and have diferent stats", we don't know...

Second:

ATAT-08.jpg.6e1c9e641f7509d584377f15a8c7d10e.jpg

And this book is canon... and it is mentioned on wookieepedia as canon: there's five speeder bikes in every AT-AT, and there's also snowtroopers, so...

 

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Red Castle said:

So it's no wonders that the troopers seen at Hoth became simply Snowtroopers, Different outfit+snow=Simply Snowtroopers.

But since then, the lore expended. And now, Snowtroopers are not just snowtroopers, as seen in Star wars 38, operating on Jedha:

Again I'll explain, that WEG rpg spourcebook even said that snowtroopers were just COLD ASSAULT STORMTROOPERS, but in page 46, it reads:

"In addition to the core stormtrooper forces (which some reports indicate is greater than the number of regular Army and Naval forces combined), a number of elite divisions have been established to move into a specialized environment at a moment's notice. These units are equipped with particularly designed armor, weapons, and gear created for use in specific environments."

Hoth troopers are in specialized environment, even in jedha, since you'll remember that the planet lost a HUGE portion of its surface when Death Star fired upon it, thus causing extreme low temperatures and huge storms that devastated the planet.

You will not see a canon product that depicts snowtroopers in an environment that is suposedly soft and gentle, such as temperate climates. You will find him in the polar region of temperate planets, or in planets far from the star they orbit. or in planets with acid atmosphere, or whatever... but normally in planets that are not suited for soldiers wearing normal uniform.

AND WORST THING is the mouse knows!!!!! because I am still looking for ONE oficial image of this game where I can see snowtroopers alongside stromtroopers...

OR A Dewback attacking a tauntaun...

But anyway, I am not saying YOU can imagine whatever you want, I am complaining that I can't deploy a legal army with three corps that wouldn't need that effort of inventing to be able to have variation.

Of course I can make the effort of inventing things, but I shouldn't be forced to.

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
On 4/14/2019 at 5:02 PM, Ragnar_the_Blue said:

Hey Guys, so I bought the Base Game today and and immediately got to building. While doing that I already thought about new additions to the Imperials. I both love the Snowtroopers as well as the upcoming Shoretroopers and would like to have both eventually.

Now I like to have armies in tabletop games fit together lore-wise. And I love bringing a bit of narrative into the models trough painting and especially basing.

I thought of doing the bases in the style of Crait, the salt planet from the last Jedi. That would explain Snowtroopers, but Shoretroopers and Speeder Bikes don't really fit in there.

Could there be an explanation for Snowtroopers to be deployed on Endor? It has got huge lakes that could fit Shoretroopers, Bikes obviously fit there, I could even paint up and converse some mud troopers, so no problem there. Only the Snowtroopers don't seem to fit in.

Would be glad for someone more immersed in the lore than me to help me out. A planet where all of those would fit, or a good explanation for them to be on for example Endor would be great.

 
You can come up with an explanation for anything. A friend's dad once told us (with irritation) how he once found himself yanked out of military service in Vietnam and rapidly re-deployed to guard some cold war hotpsot in northern Europe. He and his friends were just put on a plane overnight and sent to stand around in snow wearing jungle fatigues. I gathered that it was quite uncomfortable for the first night until they got them proper gear.I mean sure you can say "these guys crash landed here/got redeployed". And besides, ordinary stormtrooper armor will keep you alive in SPACE. Compared to space, any habitable planet is fine. You can survive to fight on Hoth in regular stormtrooper armor, you just won't be optimally equipped with ice-cleats and stuff. But is coming up with an explanation what you want? I want Star Wars armies, not the "one of each" approach that comes from collecting action figures. Making up a reason for why I was using a snowtrooper on Bespin is over now that I'm not a kid anymore.

Hence I have 6x Snowtroopers, 3x E-Webs, 2x AT-ST's, a medical droid, an astromech droid, Veers, and Vader for my Hoth armies. When I want to go to Endor or Tatooine, I have 3x Stormtropers, 1x Speeder Bikes, and an Imperial Commander & Comms Technician. These Desert/Forest/Wherever Imperials can "borrow" as many points as needed in the form of AT-ST's and droids to fit any climate.

If you're not a Hoth junkie consider the opposite. 3x Snowtroopers so you can legally play a snowy-themed army when you want, and "borrow" points from models like Vader to bulk it up. Then have 6x regular stormtroopers for all other environs, salt and pepper with shore troopers as you see fit.
Or exactly 3 of each so you can always do whatever theme, legally.

As for this side debate on West End... even if you never played it, all SW fans owe a debt of gratitude to WEG. And a ton of their ideas are constantly being used by people who don't even realize it. Like how all native-born English speakers quote Shakespeare and the Bible whether they know it or not.

The influence of West End is incalculable. If you call them "Twi'leks" or like the ISB, you're using West End's work. Anything Aurabesh comes from WEG miniatures game. That was a dead license in 1987 and an awful lot of what came out later was because people saw West End's success and regained their personal interest/financial faith in Star Wars. I find it entirely unlikely we'd have FFG Star Wars games without West End's D6 game. George Lucas had notable respect for their work and Pable Hidalgo got his start writing freelance for them, so, it's not like we're citing Planet of the Hoojibs here. "Medpac" even jumped from RPG origins into an actual Star Wars movie. So... yeah. People who think it's not important, must be uninformed.

It's sadly true that they did a lot of simplistic stuff like making Rodians natural bounty hunters*, but a lot of that is overstated by modern Geekdom looking back at them. This can also be forgiven of WEG as it was kinda par for the course for both Scifi/fantasy films and RPG's at the time. It is very common for games/stories of these genres to divide characters up into laughably rigid "guilds" or "houses", and to use very cut and dried fantasy races where personality and profession is tied closely to race. This was only 1987. A few scant years prior, "Elf" and "Dwarf" were still character classes in DnD. The whole hobby was literally in its teenage years, since gaming as we know it has mostly only indirect influence from pre-1974 sources. DnD became a prism that filtered everything that came before it, and cast its influence far and wide on everything after. But I digress.

*Disney doesn't seem to be shying away from the odditiy that is the Star Wars economy. Second perhaps only to condensing air moisture into liquid water, chasing down criminals for rewards would appear to be the most common way to earn a living.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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On 4/19/2019 at 9:04 PM, Tubb said:

If this doesn't mean that lucas himself approved that expanded universe created by WEG...

So, I gave you Zhan's quote about the rules which goes against what you say.  I showed you the WEG style guide which contradicts everything you say.  

Yep, we'd taken it as an article of faith for years long before the WEG RPG that Obi and Vader fought on a volcanoe (which by the way is a little different than lava planet in a foundry, but w/e).  I'm pretty sure George said it in an interview somewhere.  George also said, in a 1980 Starlog interview, that the stromtroopers were clones.  And yet in 2002 every freaks the heck out when they turn out to be.  We also used to believe that Mandalorian armor was this super special stuff that no one could get, but it turns out it's just armor with a few extra bells and whistles.

You're confusing fan fiction theory being right with a series bible, which there never was for the EU.  Authors regularly overwrote what each other had done.  The vast majority of WEG RPGs were overwritten long before the Disney takeover.  You can scream until you're blue in the face theat they are or were canon, but that simply doesn't make it so.  

 

I'm glad that Pablo is where he is, but he's essentially an ascended fan author.  He's got a rich well that he can draw from, but he can also pick and choose what he wants from that well, he has never been bound to anything that came before his time.  

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Posted (edited)

What a bunch of first world problems! This is what real repetition looks like. Someday I'll take extensive pics of my WEG armies for @Tubb

sYyt3JL.jpg

I have 30 snowtroopers (1 pose) 10 vehicle crewmen (2 poses, a TIE pilot repaint and a squad commander in the form of Veers), Vader on a snowy base just for fun, an AT-PT, 1 blaster cannon, and 2 probots (1 pose) for my imperial army. I'd have killed for a WEG snowtrooper squad commander or special weapon guy... instead I've got one trooper in each squad with black pauldrons for commanders, and I have 1 or 2 models in each snowtrooper squad where I've marked their bases in some way in case I need a specialist.

My snow rebels aren't in a much better state. At least with them I got to use repainted Han Solo in Hoth gear models as a squad commander. And I've got a few civilian droids on snowy bases for objective counters.

Comparatively, taking identical squads of 5 different poses plus 2 different specialists each is paradise. I still wish we had an environmentally agnostic additional imperial corps choice. But I largely expected Shoretroopers from FFG given the IA figure selection. And given certain realities they were better modelling choice than sandtroopers would have been.

And the next time anyone wants to **** about monopose models, direct them to this pic. You kids these days don't know how good you have it.

Oh, and @Tubb or @Caimheul1313 or the other old hands from the lean years of 1985-1999, you can see here a fraction of my WEG collection and note that I have re-created the desert Geohex table and alien forest from the rulebook! My madness know no bounds. So anytime you're in the Northeast USA, come over for the ultimate campaign. We'll watch Ren & Stimpy and Frasier and get takeout from a chain restaurant that hasn't changed it's flavor since the 90's. Maybe read some Dark Horse Aliens comics. Play some Commander Keen or something. Stupid nostalgia for the bad years, for the win!

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

So, I gave you Zhan's quote about the rules which goes against what you say.  I showed you the WEG style guide which contradicts everything you say.  

Yep, we'd taken it as an article of faith for years long before the WEG RPG that Obi and Vader fought on a volcanoe (which by the way is a little different than lava planet in a foundry, but w/e).  I'm pretty sure George said it in an interview somewhere.  George also said, in a 1980 Starlog interview, that the stromtroopers were clones.  And yet in 2002 every freaks the heck out when they turn out to be.  We also used to believe that Mandalorian armor was this super special stuff that no one could get, but it turns out it's just armor with a few extra bells and whistles.

You're confusing fan fiction theory being right with a series bible, which there never was for the EU.  Authors regularly overwrote what each other had done.  The vast majority of WEG RPGs were overwritten long before the Disney takeover.  You can scream until you're blue in the face theat they are or were canon, but that simply doesn't make it so.  

 

I'm glad that Pablo is where he is, but he's essentially an ascended fan author.  He's got a rich well that he can draw from, but he can also pick and choose what he wants from that well, he has never been bound to anything that came before his time.  

so, your knowledge of the lore is greater than that of content director from Lucasfilm official webpage... ok, boy, I appreciate your efforts. George Lucas didn’t mention the role playing games to Timothy Zahn, the rpg are scrap that George didn’t worry to read, no one should believe its contents, a twi’lek is not a twi’lek, Star wars world isn’t persistent, K.Kenedy has not contacted nobody to make sure that scripts and details fit the fluff,, and you are the only one that can decide what is and what is not star wars enough for you. You got the real truth about every small aspect of star wars in front of you, but Lucasfilm or Disney doesn’t.

And HOW that guide contradicts what I say??? the guide was designed by WEG!!! it is a guide that was suposed to help people write BETTER star wars and was written by WEG persons!!! and then you say WEG didn’t give a thing to star wars???

Just  final question... if you were Disney and a writer would come to you with a star wars story that begins in Manhattan... would you worry or just think... well, it doesn’t matter Star wars lore always in motion is...?

Edited by Tubb

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@TauntaunScout I am sorry, I also had battle miniatures armies, and they never were like yours simply because the stromtrooper blister came in threee diferent poses and there were at leasts two of them, so six different soldiers (same as FFG years ago!!). BUT as they didn’t come with pre-made poses, it was easier to exchange a head or a waist. I played for years with WEG miniatures battles, and the game was really better. I quickly left wotc games, though, because it was really absurd. And still bttle miniatures is a better game than legion... althought the shiny of this one makes me love it.

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