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How do I fit Shoretroopers and Snowtroopers in the same Army?

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Have you met @TauntaunScout yet? Sounds like ya'll would be friends

 

Seriously, if FFG had done everything to make you happy and the entire game after one year was just one army theme there would be people on here complaining that they did a 'horrible job choosing miniatures' because so and so cant make their perfect snow army or perfect Rogue One reenactment or what have you.  You can't please everyone, so I think they have done a good job of rotating through different themes to give us all choices and options to paint and imagine different scenarios for different maps.

They were the ones that began to give units of diferent environments instead to sticking to ONE.

Every miniature game gives you enough units for an A army, and then enough units for army B, then perhaps a variation for Snow of army A and perhaps then army B with desert gear...

Legion has given us some units from A, B in winter gear and C in desert gear BEFORE having at least three corps for A, B or C.

They decided to stick to the films and stretching the lore to make units from one film their needed corp, then from another movie and environment to stretch it to their needed special forces, then look in rogue one and take from there another corp that we need... so you got a hodgepodge of diferent batttles and planets... ugly army

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Tubb said:

So, the ONLY way of breaking that lore is when you make a mirror match...?

Great! that's why I don't play mirror matches, and LOTS of persons neither.

You can try to have a lore-Wise army, but of course that doesn't prevent THE OTHER Player from playing whatever he wants... and if what he wants is the same army as yours, or a finnish army... immersion is completely broken.

But immersion, anyway, is already broken when you play to win in a tournament where people bring the toy that will win no matter if it matches the lore... or go to a LFGS to find someone to play a match against you... this is not the same than creating an army to play scenarios according to a fictional story that you unveil while playing... I think there's diferent ways to enjoy miniature gaming: to play as another game, know the rules, starategics, units and play OR play telling a story, more of a rpg gamer or historical gamer perspective.

Apart from that... the lore is needed, that's why 40k did their own lore, to suport their product, and now the lore is so important that they even make novels and films.

I never said the lore wasn't needed, what I said was the lore is often ignored or modified for the sake of the tabletop game. 

Ways to break the Star Wars lore in Legion depends on who you ask: Mirror matches, Rebels fighting GAR, fielding Palpatine, including Royal Guard without Palpatine, fielding Jyn with any currently existing Rebel hero, fielding Wookies with any Commander other than Han Solo, etc. I've seen and heard complaints about all of these and how they broke various people's immersion.

Players are welcome to come up with whatever "lore" reason to justify a combination to themselves if they want, but they won't be able to please everyone.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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On 4/15/2019 at 11:34 AM, FlyingAnchors said:

You could look at them as environmental troopers and paint them to fit with what ever army you are going for. I believe in TFA the flame troopers were actually snow troopers with the thermal padding pulled out of their armor, and if the FO did it, I’m sure the empire did as well.

Oh... a thought. I bet the snowtroopers would make perfect hazmat-trooper... yellow canvas areas with Hazmat symbols painted on them... I might have to play with this...

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1 hour ago, Tubb said:

They were the ones that began to give units of diferent environments instead to sticking to ONE.

Every miniature game gives you enough units for an A army, and then enough units for army B, then perhaps a variation for Snow of army A and perhaps then army B with desert gear...

Legion has given us some units from A, B in winter gear and C in desert gear BEFORE having at least three corps for A, B or C.

They decided to stick to the films and stretching the lore to make units from one film their needed corp, then from another movie and environment to stretch it to their needed special forces, then look in rogue one and take from there another corp that we need... so you got a hodgepodge of diferent batttles and planets... ugly army

They did stick to one environment (up until Sabine Wren), the movies. 

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2 hours ago, Tubb said:

I don't think it is silly, it is the purpose of every miniature game, from my point of view.

Your comment is unpolite, if you think it is silly, you should try to keep calm and read another post, not insult persons.

1. I haven't insulted anyone. 

2. My post was a joke. 

3. Calm down, Beavis.

4. The OP has received plenty of good ideas. 

5. Make up whatever lore you want--it's not that hard. 

6. It's star wars army men--isn't that enough?

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3 hours ago, Djaskim609 said:

1. I haven't insulted anyone. 

2. My post was a joke. 

3. Calm down, Beavis.

4. The OP has received plenty of good ideas. 

5. Make up whatever lore you want--it's not that hard. 

6. It's star wars army men--isn't that enough?

I am sorry I have not understood your sarcastic humour, next time, as this is written language, try to make clear it was a joke and I'll try to laugh. 

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I will always fall on the side of lore/fluff trumps gameplay.  If I like a character in Lore, I try to use them in gameplay.  I don't expect plot armor to follow them, but I do expect Anakin to be a great pilot, or Yoda to be a powerful Jedi.  That's true for wargames as well, and I run AT-STs and E-Webs because of that, even if they aren't quite as lethal as they should be in game.  Mirror matches don't bother me, because there are always easy to have explanations for both sides; Imperial Warlords or Rebel extremists.  Same with other historical wargames.  The Brits and Americans may not have fought each other in the 30s and 40s, but the potential was there for conflict, and it would have been an interesting fight.  

To answer the question, however, the two options that make the most sense to me are paint jobs, or alternative minis.  Snowtroopers can be painted up or modified to be Mudtroopers, and that pairing makes sense to me.  Painting them as Galactic Marines also works.  Vice versa, Scouttroopers painted with gray, tan and white look appropriate for snow battlefields.  I'm sure a similar paint job could work for Shoretroopers.  The other option is to replace snowtroopers with 3D printed Mudtroopers.  Skull Forge sells some amazing Mudtrooper minis, and when I've fielded them, I usually proxy them in as Snows. 

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6 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Mirror matches don't bother me, because there are always easy to have explanations for both sides; Imperial Warlords or Rebel extremists.  Same with other historical wargames.  The Brits and Americans may not have fought each other in the 30s and 40s, but the potential was there for conflict, and it would have been an interesting fight.  

I always think of those as "training exercises".

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Posted (edited)

For years the T-47 Airspeeder was known as a Snowspeeder from what I recall they were never directly named by anyone in the movies as a snowspeeder or even airspeeder the medical droid says T-47 and an engineer said they were having trouble adapting the speeders for the extreme cold unfortunately I dont have any of the old books to see if that at one stage named them snowspeeders but the same could be applied to snowtroopers, none are named as snowtroopers we just see them fighting on a snow planet and bam thats their name I dont see why they couldnt just have their name changed to Hazardtroopers as they seem equipped for extremely hazardous planets not just for snow.

just my 2 cents.

Edited by Dwmosley

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Dwmosley said:

For years the T-47 Airspeeder was known as a Snowspeeder from what I recall they were never directly named by anyone in the movies as a snowspeeder or even airspeeder the medical droid says T-47 and an engineer said they were having trouble adapting the speeders for the extreme cold unfortunately I dont have any of the old books to see if that at one stage named them snowspeeders but the same could be applied to snowtroopers, none are named as snowtroopers we just see them fighting on a snow planet and bam thats their name I dont see why they couldnt just have their name changed to Hazardtroopers as they seem equipped for extremely hazardous planets not just for snow.

just my 2 cents.

In fact, snowtroopers were simply called:

Imperial Stormtroopers (Hoth Battle Gear) 

So the only difference between them and normal stormtroopers was the gear, that's all. 

Then West end games role playing game (canonical source aproved by Lucas himself) said that the stormtroopers that fought in Hoth were "snowtroopers" from blizzard force, an elite unit that used to deploy alongside AT-AT vehicles and trained for extreme cold weather. Then the AT's in Star Wars CCG were called Blizzard 1, Blizzard 2... according to this naming.

So the result is a special unit that acted on Hoth with battle gear designed for cold environment, and highly trained for cold weather... you can conclude that ANY stormtrooper unit that is in need of special gear would take that robes and fight with them, not just the blizzard force, so the armour is NOT what males the unit diferent, but the training. So seeing a unit wearing robes specially adapted for cold or extreme condicions in an environment that is not specially harsh... is strange, rare, ugly... Or simply against the lore.

If we look at actual real war, there's been plenty of times when a unit with summer gear finally fights in winter environment, and so if you choose a DAK desert unit in a ww2 game and use it in Berlín, you could happily... But it should be an OPTION and something that appears later in the game, not something for the FIRST expansion and mandatory OR use the same unit six times... 

Edited by Tubb

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There is no perfectly canon way, but even with them being called snow troopers, it seems unlikely that a force that just found out they were going to Hoth had troops who only operate in cold weather. It is better to think of specialists as troops who, while trained and equipped to fight in extreme cold, are still rifle corps and ready to fight where the battle is. The snow and shore troopers together are more like army and marines together, it happens when deployment demands. That is my take anyways.

 

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On 4/15/2019 at 8:08 PM, Red Castle said:

In a comic book that is canon ( Star Wars 38 if I remember correctly) we see Snowtroopers operating on Jedha. So they are not exclusive to snow planets.

 

On 4/15/2019 at 5:11 PM, Tonytt1642 said:

Don't think of them as snow troopers. Think of them as hostile environment troopers. Doesn't matter that they are all white. So are Storm Troopers :) 

^this. I think of them like an expeditionary force: their gear is intended to allow them to survive anything - temperature extremes, bioagents, caustic and poisonous atmospheres, the works - so they can go in on short notice anywhere they're needed, while a regular Stormtrooper unit needs to be issued with a full suite of environment-modified gear(Sandtroopers, Magmatroopers etc), which is only really practical for occupation and garrison duty.  I view the ESB "snowtroopers" as part of Blizzard Force, which are just Hostile Environment Troopers with additional experience/specialisation in arctic conditions.

Personally I'd also just use regular Scouts with E-22s as Shoretroopers, but that's because personally I'm not a big fan of the whole special helmets and fancy coloured armour thing, especially for something so extremely specific as "Coastal Defence Stormtroopers"(because it's absolutely vital to have a whole specialist elite unit specifically for the twenty-odd metres of ground between the already extant "Seatroopers" and normal Stormtroopers... 🙄) that are ostensibly just regular STs of Sergeant rank with some extra training. Leave their Scarif look on Scarif as some experimental or vanity project by the base commander, IMO.

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My snowtrooper are just a specific armoured trooper from my "Urban Coercicion troopers".

They are "Urban coercicion and High Explosive risks environments troopers". And my shore will be another one. 

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4 minutes ago, RaevenKS said:

My snowtrooper are just a specific armoured trooper from my "Urban Coercicion troopers".

They are "Urban coercicion and High Explosive risks environments troopers". And my shore will be another one. 

Picks of it didn’t happen

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2019 at 4:49 PM, Tubb said:

...if you have a power that chokes characters you make it so that you can give it to vader and not to Luke...

...No star wars battle has the emperor around...

 nor would have Vader and veers and Boba Fett and Luke and leia and Chewy altogether with just a fistfull of soldiers... 

...no star wars squirmish would have snowtroopers alongside scout troopers...

1) Tell that to the Gamorrean guards that Luke FORCE CHOKED in the beginning of ROTJ

2) perhaps you have heard of The Battle of Coruscant

3) Okay, so while Veers isn't shown on screen, I seem to recall all of the others being on Bespin at the same time and lots of blasters being shot.

4) I'm sorry, but I am really amazed at this failure of imagination.  You're basically accepting 1980 Kenner marketing as an immutable fact and insisting that tese troops can ONLY operate in snow.  Not Cold, SNOW.  I hadn't read your WEG assumption yet, that is addressed below.  You're making assumptions about how well insulated these uniforms are (for all three kinds).  This is a military of hundreds of billions of persons, operating in every kind of climate and condition imaginable.  Maybe expand your imagination, just a little bit.  

Edited by Zrob314

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18 hours ago, Tubb said:

Then West end games role playing game (canonical source aproved by Lucas himself) 

*citation needed

WEG  was not canon or "approved by Lucas himself" other than that they were given a license to make it.   They were't allowed to write about the clone wars but otherwise they had to stay within a style guide.  

"According to Zahn, Lou Aronica of Bantam Spectra had negotiated the book deal with Lucasfilm in 1989, and the publisher put Zahn's name at the top of their list of possible authors. He said, "My original instructions from LucasArts[sic] consisted of exactly two rules: the books were to start 3–5 years after Return of the Jedi, and I couldn't use anyone who'd been explicitly killed off in the movies.""  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrawn_trilogy

Lucasfilm also just stomped all over plenty of stuff EU authors wrote.  Seriously, George Lucas had a ton of other stuff on his plate, he wasn't spending his time pouring over whether the Black Ice or Starfall adventures fit into the stories he envisioned.  He just cared if the checks cleared.  I mean seriously, Kevin J Anderson wrote that Luke could force poke people in their brains and figure out if they were force sensitive or not. Joruus C'baoth  led everyone to believe that the clone wars was a war about whether or not cloning should be a thing....rather than it being a war that was fought on behalf of the republic by clones.  

 

Give this a read. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-secrets-of-writing-good-star-wars-according-to-wes-1765739282

 

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If someone wants to stick to lore/narrative, there is nothing stopping you from finding like minded people, ignoring the basic list construction rules and unit rules, and creating custom armies the way you feel they should be. Narrative gameplay has been an option in every minis game out there for decades, its still an option here.

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I've been eyeballing the legion miniatures for cool value for a while now but i know I will likely never actually play the game.

But being a modeler and painter, the cool value has a strong pull...

This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking with some of the different kits. Take for example the heavy blaster team. why would there not be normal stormtroopers using this weapon. 

Some things I'd considered were .... different kits with the same weapons but different operators.... nope. not feasible I think. Another was kits with different parts to make the one that fits.... I can see issues with different armors being more different than just helmet changes. This led me to think maybe adding multiple operators to switch out out just put in... unsure if that would crank up price much and not sure how they attach to the weapons... I dont know. It is later and I'm rambling.

 

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3 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

I've been eyeballing the legion miniatures for cool value for a while now but i know I will likely never actually play the game.

But being a modeler and painter, the cool value has a strong pull...

This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking with some of the different kits. Take for example the heavy blaster team. why would there not be normal stormtroopers using this weapon. 

Some things I'd considered were .... different kits with the same weapons but different operators.... nope. not feasible I think. Another was kits with different parts to make the one that fits.... I can see issues with different armors being more different than just helmet changes. This led me to think maybe adding multiple operators to switch out out just put in... unsure if that would crank up price much and not sure how they attach to the weapons... I dont know. It is later and I'm rambling.

 

Luckily we have third parties to step in and fill the gaps FFG leave due to time & resource constraints - you can get regular ST operators for the E-Web from Skullforge. Also that kind of thing is fairly easy to convert, and swapping can be done with magnets. I expect the reason we got "Snowtrooper" operators in the default kit is simply because that's how we first saw it "on screen" in ESB.

Personally I've got one eye on Legion, but I'm mostly in this for the sake of having loads of decent quality Star Wars figures - there are plenty more games & RPGs out there I can use them in, so I collect based on how things "should" be based on either canon or headcanon(eg, my Stormtrooper units are organised in batches of ten with a Sergeant, Corporal, weapon specialist, and seven regular troopers, but I favour the "hostile environment trooper" explanation referenced above for "Snowtroopers") and I have no qualms at all about using "unofficial" models, model kits, third party stuff etc, where FFG can't provide.

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