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Ragnar_the_Blue

How do I fit Shoretroopers and Snowtroopers in the same Army?

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On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 11:02 PM, Ragnar_the_Blue said:

Now I like to have armies in tabletop games fit together lore-wise. And I love bringing a bit of narrative into the models trough painting and especially basing.

Wrong game.

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10 hours ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

I personally like to stay as canonical as possible but, it isn't very well explored so... take some artistic and head canon liberties!

Come on, it is PERFECTLY explored and explained, problem is persons here still try to convince everyone that you can still be canonical puting together snowtroopers and a dewback!!

The designers have not chosen the units to match nothing, if you give any consideration to the lore. They have done a horrible job choosing units, and they know, that's why we will never see an official image from FFG mixing snowtroopers with speeder bikes, for example.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Suspension of Disbelief, they're plastic army men

Suspension of Disbelief REQUIRES some elements to remain permanent so that not everything is a chaotic list of ideas: in Star Wars there's jedi, so you believe that Luke can enter Jabba's Palace using his Jedi mind trick. BUT this doesn't mean he can become invisible or simply be beamed into the palace as Star Trek characters do... that would break that suspension of disbelief...

For example, in Episode VIII, to make believable the ending scene, the director shows us throughout the film how the force can suggest that two persons are together although they are light years away, so you BELIEVE that Luke's ending scene makes sense.

For example, JRR Tolkien insisted that, in order to achieve a true immersion, you need a whole SECOND belief, not a disbelief!

From wikipedia, refering to his essay "on fairy stories": "in order for the narrative to work, the reader must believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the fictional world. By focusing on creating an INTERNALLY CONSISTENT FICTIONAL WORLD, the author makes secondary belief possible. Tolkien argues that suspension of disbelief is only necessary when the work has failed to create secondary belief. From that point the spell is broken, and the reader ceases to be immersed in the story and must make a conscious effort to suspend disbelief or else give up on it entirely."

Lord of the rings, Star Trek, Dune, Star wars, Dungeons & Dragons, Conan, Cthulhu...  are CONSISTENT, they are very well built fictional realities, with complex detailing that need prevalence... by don't caring about that continuity, you slowly destroy the prevalence and the whole fiction becomes a mess.

So we need CONSISTENCY... if the snowtrooper is a Snow trooper, suddenly a group of game designers shouldn't try to convince the audience that they are now a special elite unit that is deployed everywhere no matter the climate. Same with dewback. Same with Tauntaun. But they don't give a ****... or perhaps Disney DO care and that's why we don't see an image where both units are together??

Edited by Tubb

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^    ^

Excellent treatise, but the real reason snow troopers are a thing is to sell toys. SW was such a surprise hit and the kenner toys flew off the shelves and made Lucas millions. So new ships, armor and other things that can be marketed were created to sell stuff. The same thing continues today except at a much more calculated rate

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Posted (edited)

GL was smart with his marketing, and for better or worse, he established the trend of a couple new armor designs every film. Costume department either loved or hated him for it, I'm sure. 

And now these days you get to say "Holy cow I made a costume design which was in Star Wars how cool is that!". And in FFG, some sculptor gets to say "Hey, I took a costume design from Star Wars and put it on your kitchen table, how cool is that!"

Edited by UnitOmega

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Snowtroopers are not just "Snow"troopers. Their gear encompasses all harsh environments.

Likewise, Shoretroopers are really just elite troops. So they can go anywhere.

Yes, but, which planet has an environment harsh enough to need a special gear and at the same time allow Luke Skywalker wear a spring short jacket and ride a dewback?

It is not consistent with the lore. It breaks immersion. If you don't care about immersion, go on, it is your game, but a lot of miniature gamers don't feel ok about getting together diferent themes, mixing diferent bases or play unpainted minis... we are asking for more generic armies to choose units, and they are not listening.

Edited by Tubb

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51 minutes ago, Tubb said:

Yes, but, which planet has an environment harsh enough to need a special gear and at the same time allow Luke Skywalker wear a spring short jacket and ride a dewback?

It is not consistent with the lore. It breaks immersion. If you don't care about immersion, go on, it is your game, but a lot of miniature gamers don't feel ok about getting together diferent themes, mixing diferent bases or play unpainted minis... we are asking for more generic armies to choose units, and they are not listening.

Patience, the game is only a year old. In time there will be so many unit choices from different themes that you can easily build multiple armies that all match.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, GunNut said:

 

sbG7UJg.jpg

Sorry about the flash but the light here is cruddy.  Basically, I did the same armor and uniform colors, then added a dark tan for the leggings.

Great stuff - my Veers has biniculars too, odd pose!  May steal this theme. 

Thanks for sharing. 

Edited by Jedirev

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Patience, the game is only a year old. In time there will be so many unit choices from different themes that you can easily build multiple armies that all match.

I'd really would like to feel confident about Ffg bringing me new units, but considering the Clone wars have erupted, and that they have given us three corps option (none of them being thematically suited) I doubt I can have a complete themed army at all. Or a support weapon that is not cold climate. Or a galactic animal that could actually walk within a range of - 200 and +50 °C...

Or in reverse... A Hoth commander if I love snowtroopers. And speeder bikes with snowtroopers, and Rebel veterans that are Not dressed for extreme cold condicions... And these are Not "harsh environment" troops... Although I must admit they would look just "fine" with a Rogue one painting scheme

Edited by Tubb

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6 hours ago, Tubb said:

I'd really would like to feel confident about Ffg bringing me new units, but considering the Clone wars have erupted, and that they have given us three corps option (none of them being thematically suited) I doubt I can have a complete themed army at all. Or a support weapon that is not cold climate. Or a galactic animal that could actually walk within a range of - 200 and +50 °C...

Or in reverse... A Hoth commander if I love snowtroopers. And speeder bikes with snowtroopers, and Rebel veterans that are Not dressed for extreme cold condicions... And these are Not "harsh environment" troops... Although I must admit they would look just "fine" with a Rogue one painting scheme

GCW releases will continue to happen, 1 year is still really new for a miniatures war game.

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8 hours ago, Tubb said:

Yes, but, which planet has an environment harsh enough to need a special gear and at the same time allow Luke Skywalker wear a spring short jacket and ride a dewback?

It is not consistent with the lore. It breaks immersion. If you don't care about immersion, go on, it is your game, but a lot of miniature gamers don't feel ok about getting together diferent themes, mixing diferent bases or play unpainted minis... we are asking for more generic armies to choose units, and they are not listening.

Miniatures games are rarely consistent with the lore, and as soon as FFG included named characters and allowed for mirror matches that was thrown out for Legion.

If some people don't want to mix things, that's their call, they are welcome to game how they want, just as someone else is welcome to make a hodge podge army. If you want a "lore" justification for mixing things, that's fine too, but it isn't technically necessary for the game.

For the Empire player, it could be a a cobbled together platoon from a nearby training facility or personnel depot, chosen for proximity to Rebel activity rather than uniformity, or squads being deployed with the wrong equipment because of bureaucracy. For the Rebels, painting the uniforms counts for a lot. They're a hodge podge army, so their uniforms not perfectly matching is fine. And if you don't paint them as humans, maybe the "veteran troopers" in a given army come from a planet with a warmer environment, so they feel cold in temperatures that other feel comfortable. 

Plus, I believe armour similar to that of Snowtroopers has been made canon by Disney for flametroopers, both need insulated armour, just for different reasons.

I've been playing historical games for years, and forcing perfect consistency with "lore" in those games would prevent people from playing each other if they happened to have the "wrong" armies. Not to mention removing most elements of list building. Now, the players often choose for consistency, but that's different from the game forcing it.

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7 hours ago, Djaskim609 said:

Place shoretroopers in your list. Place snowtroopers in your list. Place a commander in your list. Don't go over 800 points. 

Have you read what he is asking for?

Quote

Now I like to have armies in tabletop games fit together lore-wise.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Miniatures games are rarely consistent with the lore,

Bolt action? wh40K? Infinity? Historical? Conquest? Team yankee? Batman MG? Harry Potter MG?

EVERY miniature game I have played or own has a deep background, and it is a requirement for success. The lore sells minis, if you don't have a good starting point and just make minis for the sake of doing them and make a set of rules without planing a background, the game fails.

In Star wars, the background is already done (like in historical games), you don't need to write about it, you don't need to develop a story... BUT ANYWAY you can find lore in every card, detail or rule, refering to the known facts about units and their behaviour, so that you feel more immersed in the fictional (or real!) world. You don't give the speeder bike less speed than Darth vader, you try to stick to the known facts, and don't make stupid decisions: if you have a power that chokes characters you make it so that you can give it to vader and not to Luke. If you got a speeder rule it is because in star wars speeders do exist... you DON'T make a rule called beam me up scotty! because you FOLLOW the lore. So I don't understand your statement... every game tries to be consistent with the lore, and FFG, although is consistent with the weaponry, the relative speeds, sizes and capabilities (even giving the stormies the precise keyword!) they are not doing a good job if you look at army building level. No star wars battle has the emperor around, nor would have Vader and veers and Boba Fett and Luke and leia and Chewy altogether with just a fistfull of soldiers... and no star wars squirmish would have snowtroopers alongside scout troopers... or it would be something that would need to be very justified, such as persons around here have tried to do. The scout in extreme conditions would wear a snowtrooper armour and ride a white speeder bike... just as the lore suggests!

THAT's what I would like. :)

Edited by Tubb

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2 minutes ago, Tubb said:

Bolt action? wh40K? Infinity? Historical? Conquest? Team yankee? Batman MG? Harry Potter MG?

EVERY miniature game I have played or own has a deep background, and it is a requirement for success. The lore sells minis, if you don't have a good starting point and just make minis for the sake of doing them and make a set of rules without planing a background, the game fails.

In Star wars, the background is already done (like in historical games), you don't need to write about it, you don't need to develop a story... BUT ANYWAY you can find lore in every card, detail or rule, refering to the known facts about units and their behaviour, so that you feel more immersed in the fictional (or real!) world. You don't give the speeder bike less speed than Darth vader, you try to stick to the known facts, and don't make stupid decisions: if you have a power that chokes characters you make it so that you can give it to vader and not to Luke. If you got a speeder rule it is because in star wars speeders do exist... you DON'T make a rule called beam me up scotty! because you FOLLOW the lore. So I don't undertsand your statement... every game tries to be consistent with the lore, and FFG, although is consistent with the weaponry, the relative speeds, sizes and capacities (even giving the stormies the precise keyword!) they are not doing a good job if you look at army building level. No star wars battle has the emperor around, no star wars battle would have Vader and veers and Boba Fett and Luke and leia and Chewy altogether... and no star wars battle would have snowtroopers alongside scout troopers. The scout in extreme conditions would wear a snowtrooper armour and ride a white speeder bike. THAT's what I would like. :)

Having lore and being consistent with the lore during actual gameplay are two totally different things. 

Bolt Action: The Finns only ever fought the Russians and the Germans, but nothing in the rules prevent fielding a Finnish army against a British, American, Italian, or Japanese Army.

WH40K: The lore was written to fit the miniatures, not the other way around, so the have a bit of an edge. But they still allow for things that are forbidden in canon, such as Tau fighting Tau, or Kroot fighting Tau, and allow for you to field models that should NOT be working together in canon at all. There are rules "punishments" for doing so, but last I checked, the rules don't explicitly say "Can't Ally" anymore.

Historical: See Bolt Action, same thing is allowed in most other historicals. 

Team Yankee: Allows for infighting in Comintern, or fielding armies against historical allies. Again, lore failed. 

Batman: Per the Batman lore, if I'm fielding Batman, I win. So....

Harry Potter: Can I make a team/squad/whatever that is not represented in the literature? Does recreating a conflict from the films/books always have the same result as the book/film? If not, then it fails the lore.

I am unfamiliar with Infinity and Conquest, but I'd imagine there are similar things, or where a certain unit is portrayed as awesome in lore, but is lackluster in game. 

They have the lore to interest people into playing the game. But the lore often yields to gameplay limitations/ensuring the game is what the company views as "fun."

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Having lore and being consistent with the lore during actual gameplay are two totally different things. 

Bolt Action: The Finns only ever fought the Russians and the Germans, but nothing in the rules prevent fielding a Finnish army against a British, American, Italian, or Japanese Army.

WH40K: The lore was written to fit the miniatures, not the other way around, so the have a bit of an edge. But they still allow for things that are forbidden in canon, such as Tau fighting Tau, or Kroot fighting Tau, and allow for you to field models that should NOT be working together in canon at all. There are rules "punishments" for doing so, but last I checked, the rules don't explicitly say "Can't Ally" anymore.

Historical: See Bolt Action, same thing is allowed in most other historicals. 

Team Yankee: Allows for infighting in Comintern, or fielding armies against historical allies. Again, lore failed. 

Batman: Per the Batman lore, if I'm fielding Batman, I win. So....

Harry Potter: Can I make a team/squad/whatever that is not represented in the literature? Does recreating a conflict from the films/books always have the same result as the book/film? If not, then it fails the lore.

I am unfamiliar with Infinity and Conquest, but I'd imagine there are similar things, or where a certain unit is portrayed as awesome in lore, but is lackluster in game. 

They have the lore to interest people into playing the game. But the lore often yields to gameplay limitations/ensuring the game is what the company views as "fun."

So, the ONLY way of breaking that lore is when you make a mirror match...?

Or making Batman loose? have you ever read a Batman comic? he looses... a lot...

But anyway, haven't you thought that perhaps you are stretching slightly what i said by saying that if the outcome of a given game is not the same as the film or novel I am being faulty to the lore? mmm

It doesn't make any sense, and worst thing is you know it perfectly, but simply wanted to find a way to say I am wrong.

Anyway, i don't play mirror matches, so finished! all the problems you see, suddenly dissapear! :)

You can try to have a lore-Wise army, but of course that doesn't prevent THE OTHER Player from playing whatever he wants... and if what he wants is the same army as yours, or a finnish army... immersion is completely broken but if you want to play and don't care about immersion... well... you can't buy, build and paint the army of your oponent...

BUT when you play bolt action you CAN make a lore Wise army, and even stick to lore-wise batles, same with EVERY game... but legion DOESN'T ALLOW you to make such a thing simply because they have not given us the units!!

Anyway thatv way of enjoying the game is not the same than creating an army to play scenarios according to a fictional story that you unveil while playing... I think there's diferent ways to enjoy miniature gaming: to play as another game, know the rules, strategics, units and play like you play chess or Risk OR play telling a story, more of a rpg gamer or historical gamer perspective.

Apart from that... the lore is needed, that's why 40k did their own lore, to suport their product, and now the lore is so important that they even make novels and films.

Edited by Tubb

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Tubb said:

Bolt action? wh40K? Infinity? Historical? Conquest? Team yankee? Batman MG? Harry Potter MG?

EVERY miniature game I have played or own has a deep background, and it is a requirement for success. The lore sells minis, if you don't have a good starting point and just make minis for the sake of doing them and make a set of rules without planing a background, the game fails.

In Star wars, the background is already done (like in historical games), you don't need to write about it, you don't need to develop a story... BUT ANYWAY you can find lore in every card, detail or rule, refering to the known facts about units and their behaviour, so that you feel more immersed in the fictional (or real!) world. You don't give the speeder bike less speed than Darth vader, you try to stick to the known facts, and don't make stupid decisions: if you have a power that chokes characters you make it so that you can give it to vader and not to Luke. If you got a speeder rule it is because in star wars speeders do exist... you DON'T make a rule called beam me up scotty! because you FOLLOW the lore. So I don't understand your statement... every game tries to be consistent with the lore, and FFG, although is consistent with the weaponry, the relative speeds, sizes and capabilities (even giving the stormies the precise keyword!) they are not doing a good job if you look at army building level. No star wars battle has the emperor around, nor would have Vader and veers and Boba Fett and Luke and leia and Chewy altogether with just a fistfull of soldiers... and no star wars squirmish would have snowtroopers alongside scout troopers... or it would be something that would need to be very justified, such as persons around here have tried to do. The scout in extreme conditions would wear a snowtrooper armour and ride a white speeder bike... just as the lore suggests!

THAT's what I would like. :)

Have you met @TauntaunScout yet? Sounds like ya'll would be friends

 

Seriously, if FFG had done everything to make you happy and the entire game after one year was just one army theme there would be people on here complaining that they did a 'horrible job choosing miniatures' because so and so cant make their perfect snow army or perfect Rogue One reenactment or what have you.  You can't please everyone, so I think they have done a good job of rotating through different themes to give us all choices and options to paint and imagine different scenarios for different maps.

Edited by KommanderKeldoth

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Djaskim609 said:

Yes, I think it's silly. 

I don't think it is silly, it is the purpose of every miniature game, from my point of view.

Your comment is unpolite, if you think it is silly, you should try to keep calm and read another post, not insult persons.

Edited by Tubb

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