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Cloaker

Well, that whole "Let's make the game easier for new players to get into" approach didn't last long...

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10 minutes ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

My God. If smugness could be used as a power source, @Cloaker would solve global warming by themselves. 

When immaturely and anonymously assumed judgments of one's intent & character are used as or in a continual vacuum, the devouring of potential sources undoubtedly occur. 

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48 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Nope, not at all. Any of the some 30+ players I play with regularly could attest to my motives and lack of personal anger. Elementary attempt to bait on something you have rudimentary assumption about, though. 

Not really an attempt to bait; just stating what your posts seem to be indicate.  I'm willing to allow you may genuinely believe you're acting for the good of all newbies, but it just doesn't come through in your responses.

48 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Yup, that affirms it. Perspectives like yours are part of the overall problem, and a terrible tone for setting a conciliatory atmosphere that could engage those said newbies. Stay in your meta lane. 

My apologies for trying to understand what an article actually meant rather than trying to twist it into my own, limited interpretation.  

Hyperspace is meant to be a competitive format.  I'm not a competitive player, but its prominence at high-ranking events seems to indicate that it's meant for a lot more than just newbies.  However, they've also stated that they want it to be welcoming to newbies, too.  Allowing some of the older ships while also having enough 2E ships to make perfectly competitive lists strikes me as an excellent way of appealing to veterans while still keeping the cost of entry low enough for newbies.

If you feel that this view is somehow destructive to the community, would you kindly explain why rather than merely asserting that it is?

52 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Completely different player base I can recruit that get to benefit from my large collection, in a campaign sort of way. But then, I wouldn't expect you to see that aspect by this point within the limits of your game vision you're willing to afford.

I confess that I don't really know what you're going for here.  All I was saying is that it sounds odd to decry one format for having barriers to entry, and then turn around and appeal to a format that requires even more expense to get all the options.

Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by "the limits of <my> game vision," but I'd be curious to hear what you think mine are.

58 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

At this point, attempting to edify you on the basics of supply/demand economics as well as increasing market share is just an exercise in futility. Some people choose such states of financial ignorance willingly, unfortunately. 

I'd point out that this is simply dodging the question, but it really does summarize most of your posts on this topic.  "I'm so much smarter and more objective than everyone else that I shouldn't have to make arguments or address those of lesser beings.  If people don't simply see that I'm right, the only possible explanation is that they're too stupid to understand."

I mean, I get that at some point, you have to move on and accept that someone won't be convinced, but at least make the effort to convince first!  After you state your premise, don't just jump to the conclusion as if it's self-evident; show us the steps you took to reach that conclusion!  When someone makes a counter-argument, explain why you think they're wrong rather than just telling them they're wrong.

That way, you won't have to keep saying you know what you're talking about.  People will be able to see you know what you're talking about, even if they still disagree with your conclusions. 

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

Maybe try looking at it objectively?

Not a bad suggestion, but first we need to be able to agree on what "it" is that we're looking at.  We're both talking about newbies getting into Hyperspace, but what do we mean by that?  If you mean being able to have all the options, then I doubt anyone would dispute the fact that allowing 1E ships does make it more difficult.  However, that's a rather narrow reading, and I think most of us are interpreting "getting into Hyperspace" as meaning, "having competitive options."  I think we've done rather well explaining how what we see is consistent with this reading.  If you think this reading is wrong, then why do you think that?  Support your arguments.

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13 minutes ago, ArcHammer said:

I've been playing at home for a few weeks and have to admit I'm not really sure what hyperspace is at all.

Hyperspace is just a game format used in some tournaments and events.  Basically, Extended format has all pilots and upgrades as legal, while Hyperspace is somewhat more restrictive. 

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12 minutes ago, shadowswalker said:

Dear Moderator,

Could we lock this topic? It's getting rather redundant and trolley.

I have no issue with it getting locked down, but that's pretty unfortunate that critiques of systemic choice are considered candidates to do so. I still wish FFG will consider making Hyperspace equal footing for new players and veterans alike, using 2.0 products and models available only. Said my piece, and wanted to bring light to it. Might do so again if they keep it up even. :) I'm easily avoided and mostly harmless.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Not really an attempt to bait; just stating what your posts seem to be indicate.  I'm willing to allow you may genuinely believe you're acting for the good of all newbies, but it just doesn't come through in your responses.

Posts and texts can always come off as impersonal or tone deaf, understood and agreed.

Quote

My apologies for trying to understand what an article actually meant rather than trying to twist it into my own, limited interpretation.  

Eh, it is what it is for both of us.

Quote

Hyperspace is meant to be a competitive format.  I'm not a competitive player, but its prominence at high-ranking events seems to indicate that it's meant for a lot more than just newbies.  However, they've also stated that they want it to be welcoming to newbies, too.  Allowing some of the older ships while also having enough 2E ships to make perfectly competitive lists strikes me as an excellent way of appealing to veterans while still keeping the cost of entry low enough for newbies.

If you feel that this view is somehow destructive to the community, would you kindly explain why rather than merely asserting that it is?

You know, you're right on this. I probably should put together the summary of my two recent discussions with the single mom of a 12 year old and the other Star Wars fan couple who checked out after me explaining some of the changes with Wave 5. It would probably better illuminate the problem of the newcomer from different walks of life than all my scummy bluster.

Quote

I confess that I don't really know what you're going for here.  All I was saying is that it sounds odd to decry one format for having barriers to entry, and then turn around and appeal to a format that requires even more expense to get all the options.

Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by "the limits of <my> game vision," but I'd be curious to hear what you think mine are.

You made the point of cost in relation to Epic. What's cool is I can get peeps in to play it with my collection hopefully if Epic is done right. They won't have to spend a dime. On the surface it might look like there is a cost, but I can mitigate that with what I have for them.

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I'd point out that this is simply dodging the question, but it really does summarize most of your posts on this topic.  "I'm so much smarter and more objective than everyone else that I shouldn't have to make arguments or address those of lesser beings.  If people don't simply see that I'm right, the only possible explanation is that they're too stupid to understand."

Brother, I'm actually sorry that you don't get what I'm trying to convey. If we were in person I bet I could totally win you over to why there is a problem with their direction with candy dropping Soontir and Guri here, because you're a fan of the game and I am too. But if you're going to cherry pick some of the dialogue without allowing yourself a window to see what is being presented through it, some arms get raised, you know?

Quote

I mean, I get that at some point, you have to move on and accept that someone won't be convinced, but at least make the effort to convince first!  After you state your premise, don't just jump to the conclusion as if it's self-evident; show us the steps you took to reach that conclusion!  When someone makes a counter-argument, explain why you think they're wrong rather than just telling them they're wrong.

You sound like my wife. Quit eavesdroppping on our Alexa! 😛

Quote

That way, you won't have to keep saying you know what you're talking about.  People will be able to see you know what you're talking about, even if they still disagree with your conclusions. 

Not a bad suggestion, but first we need to be able to agree on what "it" is that we're looking at.  We're both talking about newbies getting into Hyperspace, but what do we mean by that?  If you mean being able to have all the options, then I doubt anyone would dispute the fact that allowing 1E ships does make it more difficult.  However, that's a rather narrow reading, and I think most of us are interpreting "getting into Hyperspace" as meaning, "having competitive options."  I think we've done rather well explaining how what we see is consistent with this reading.  If you think this reading is wrong, then why do you think that?  Support your arguments.

I'm doing a terrible job of being productive at work. X-wing, man... it gets me going because I freaking love the game. Will attempt to compose something better. Fair enough.

Edited by Cloaker

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@Cloaker I know you mean well, but from my perspective your thread title and the first (pages of) posts might be counter productive.

@JJ48 did an excellent job of pointing out several unclear jumps. Particularly that hyperspace is still a competitive format and thus only newbie friendly, not newbie-limited, is crucial.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure what I am, casual or competitive. Most likely the former, I generally only go to one big event every year, the UK System Open, and usually, bring something odd that is in no way meta just to have fun.

What I am not, is new to X-Wing, been here since Wave 3, not trying to boast merely adding context to what I have to say.

Hyperspace seems to be FFG's competitive format, akin to Modern in Magic the Gathering (based on my very limited experience of Magic). From what I can gather, the intention seems to be to level the playing field for new tournament players by limiting the options of extended players enough so that any 2.0 release can be competitive to what is in hyperspace while still not invalidating the investment from older players by rotating in and out ships from extended to keep things fresh.

This is based on what I have seen so far, despite the game not even being a year old yet.

I feel a compromise has to be made here. I completely agree that new players should have an accessible experience. However, I also feel that existing and older fans cannot also be ignored or sidelined due to that. There must be a balance.

It's also quite possible (and again this is merely conjecture) that if 'classic factions' were to just stick with what was released, they could have been imbalanced against the more recent droids and republic while including the new hyperspace ships balanced out the game as a whole.

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

You know, you're right on this. I probably should put together the summary of my two recent discussions with the single mom of a 12 year old and the other Star Wars fan couple who checked out after me explaining some of the changes with Wave 5. It would probably better illuminate the problem of the newcomer from different walks of life than all my scummy bluster.

What changes were you explaining? Cause from the sounds of it (and I admit this is just from how you describe the situation) it sounds like it was you complicating matters rather than letting them as potential new players grow and explore. When I introduce a new player I always tell them "Try the core set X-Wing vs. two TIE Fighters and go from there. Buy what looks interesting, experiment and have fun." I don't bog them down by explaining that the Ghost is a great expansion because it has a ship that can dock and it allows the ship to do this and that. Let them discover that for themselves and merely clarify things and offer a demonstration if they want it.

As for the future of Hyperspace, we're due a change come July, and since Wave IV will be out by then, it's likely that what is legal for Hyperspace will change again to reflect the new releases.

To end, I do not think the topic should be locked for discussion should be had about this, shutting down discussion is ignorant. That being said I do think there's no way Cloaker will deviate from their opinion regarding this. Speaking of, I find the perspective and intent of the opinion commendable, but also very stubborn since Cloaker is (at least it seems to me) unable to consider other perspectives.

I completely get why this discussion has to be had, but for me, the current status quo is a compromise between being accessible to new players if they want to play while allowing older players to use the starships and conversion kits they paid for. Trying to please the greatest audience possible which is what FFG should be doing rather than completely alienating one side or the other which could be disastrous either way.

We are all X-Wing players after all.

Edited by Ebak

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3 hours ago, Cloaker said:

 

You know, you're right on this. I probably should put together the summary of my two recent discussions with the single mom of a 12 year old and the other Star Wars fan couple who checked out after me explaining some of the changes with Wave 5. It would probably better illuminate the problem of the newcomer from different walks of life than all my scummy bluster.

You made the point of cost in relation to Epic. What's cool is I can get peeps in to play it with my collection hopefully if Epic is done right. They won't have to spend a dime. On the surface it might look like there is a cost, but I can mitigate that with what I have for them.

 

Wave 5 didn’t change anything and doesn’t hit for 6 months. If the problem is availability for hyperspace that’s a wave 3 issue. Wave 4 is not entirely in hyperspace yet either. For all we know wave 4 and 5 will be upon release. 

Many of us have friends or acquaintances who have recently joined the game from many walks of life. We’ve seen newcomers as well. 

Letting other players use your collection is a great way to introduce them to the game, and epic is fantastic. The scenario play is especially exciting. That said, if a new player wanted to, say, borrow Soontir on a store game night, that would also help solve some of the availability issues too, right? At the micro level?

For casual play any rule set can be used (2.0 only!), and OP has great changes coming up where play (and not results) gets swag. That’s going to be fantastic, but the easiest way to get someone hooked is pushing plastic ships around the board and having a good time with a group. Not having access to every ship possible never really seemed like a barrier to fun for the groups I started playing with or the people we’ve added along the way, and we didn’t have access to all of the ships for some time. 

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Fun fact: On Amazon right now you can buy TIE Bombers and TIE Interceptors for $10 or less each. Combine that with $40 for a conversion kit, you can spend less than $80 for any combination of 4 squints, bombers, and have dials and cards for, well the rest of the Imperial conversion kit.

For equal or less money than 4 2.0 single ship blisters.

yeah, the outrage.....

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Just thought I'd jump in here for my first post.  I'm a new player, just started in January and have only played 2.0.  I think I'm having a different experience than a lot of the new players I've seen in here in that I've been playing for 4 months and haven't played a single Hyperspace game yet. 

The game organizer and the veteran players are holding on to their vast collections of 1.0 ships and pilots with a death grip, which puts myself and one other new player at a disadvantage every week. . .there WERE two other Noobs, but they just sort of vanished after they saw there's no real way what we're pulling off the shelf as far as new ships for sale is going to compete well.  I've brought up playing Hyperspace every other week to make it fair and I sort of get a "Sink or swim, son" kind of attitude.  It's getting to the place where I'm considering going to the shop owner and setting up an X-Wing night myself. . .trying to lure back the other two and maybe a couple of the friendlier players from the existing game.

ANYWAY. . .

The TL/DR of it all is that telling new players to buy conversion kits and search out aftermarket used items isn't always an option, and it's really sort of rude.   

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15 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Hyperspace is just a game format used in some tournaments and events.  Basically, Extended format has all pilots and upgrades as legal, while Hyperspace is somewhat more restrictive. 

To add to this, FFG's official squad builder app and (i'm guessing on this part) most other squad builders have the option to create Hyperspace lists, which will only allow you to include Hyperspace legal choices.

Lastly, the point list PDF's available here have a "Hyperspace Legal" column showing you what is allowed in the format.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Cloaker said:

I probably should put together the summary of my two recent discussions with the single mom of a 12 year old and the other Star Wars fan couple who checked out after me explaining some of the changes with Wave 5. It would probably better illuminate the problem of the newcomer from different walks of life than all my scummy bluster.

Wha...why?   Why would a Wave 5 discussion do that when new releases should be about exciting new options?   Why would competitive changes matter to new players who are just getting started in the game and what in the heck does Wave 5 have to do with your OP?   This has me way more confused about what your actual issue is.

Edited by AlexW

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On 4/13/2019 at 4:38 PM, C3gorach said:

I am a new player. I have only bought the Ships released in second edition (no conversion kits). I am happily playing the game, and attending (albeit small) local tournaments. I really don't understand why I MUST have the TIE Interceptor for example. Soontir Fell would be cool to fly ok, but I can make lists, have fun and be competitive with the four options (Reaper,Fighter, Advanced, Striker) I have right now.

The Hyperspace "rotation" does have me buffled though. When they finally re-release the Interceptor (or any other ship) it might have rotated out...? 🤔

I didn’t read the whole thread, so this may have already be addressed, but there is still literally no confirmation that a rotation is happening at all, and if it is, we have no idea what it will look like.

There was a single off hand remark made during a Q&A at the Adepticon panel.  Something along the lines of “we’ve thought about something like a rotation.”  It’s very similar to what they said about card packs, (paraphrase) “we’d like to do that.”

Both of these comments were immediately taken by the community as hard confirmation that both card packs and a rotation are coming.  We don’t know that, and if anything a rotation would come (imho) the same way it did in Netrunner, when the set got too unwieldy with too many wonky card interactions that restricted the design space or made it super difficult to design cards that weren’t already done better or could have game breaking interactions the designers simply didn’t have the time to test.

My prediction is that rotations, if they come, will be at a point far in the future.  As it stands now, FFG can completely control what happens in Hyperspace and so rotations are completely unnecessary and at this point purely hypothetical.

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Since we are all here about empowering new players (like me 😁) what you think is the "reasonable" number of each ship to have? Atm I have 1x TIE Reaper, 6x TIE/ln, 1x TIE Adv, 2x TIE/sk, and planning to get 1x Decimator and 2x TIE Adv Pt. I am good right? 🤔

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16 hours ago, Cloaker said:

You know, you're right on this. I probably should put together the summary of my two recent discussions with the single mom of a 12 year old and the other Star Wars fan couple who checked out after me explaining some of the changes with Wave 5. It would probably better illuminate the problem of the newcomer from different walks of life than all my scummy bluster.

I’m not trying to come off like a jerk, but I’m genuinely curious.  What changes with Wave 5?  Aside from getting my hands on a few sweet Republic Y-Wings and buying another Ghost, what is changing?

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9 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

Since we are all here about empowering new players (like me 😁) what you think is the "reasonable" number of each ship to have? Atm I have 1x TIE Reaper, 6x TIE/ln, 1x TIE Adv, 2x TIE/sk, and planning to get 1x Decimator and 2x TIE Adv Pt. I am good right? 🤔

Honestly, I’m not the best person to answer this.  I left X-Wing about a year ago and just got back and am focusing on smaller factions now (Republic and Resistance while dabbling back in my rebel roots).

That being said, that looks....sufficient?  Maybe 2 more fighters if you want to do a full 8 tie fighter swarm, but howl, Iden + 4 others seems more than sufficient.  Everything else looks good.

The way I used to go in 1.0 is buy enough of each ship to run a full list of just that ship.  That’s not exactly the way I’m going now (I’m not getting 4x guardians of the Republic to run 8 torrents), but sometimes it still happens *looks at 4 Republic ARCs*.

Just buy what’s fun to play to you, and if a list idea really jives with you, pick up another ship for that list.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FatherTurin said:

I’m not trying to come off like a jerk, but I’m genuinely curious.  What changes with Wave 5?  Aside from getting my hands on a few sweet Republic Y-Wings and buying another Ghost, what is changing?

From my imperial perspective, I get access to an expansion with afterburners, hate and predictive shot without buying core sets or non-imperial stuff. 

But that's in part because I never bought the TIE/v1 the first time around, so I'm not opposed to buying several this time around too.

 

It's slightly annoying they've included afterburners in the TIE/v1, by the way, since - much like the fang - it can't by default carry the thing as it has no Upgrade modification slot and - at the moment - no quick build version carries it either. I'd kind of forgive them for the new force powers as they might have popped up later in the development cycle and the TIE/v1 is the empire's generic-pilot-with-the-force ship, but afterburners feels very much like the 'buy this expansion for an upgrade card' inclusion which grates (much like I'm a touch irked that the TIE/ln expansion didn't include Ruthless). 

 

 

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1 hour ago, C3gorach said:

Since we are all here about empowering new players (like me 😁) what you think is the "reasonable" number of each ship to have? Atm I have 1x TIE Reaper, 6x TIE/ln, 1x TIE Adv, 2x TIE/sk, and planning to get 1x Decimator and 2x TIE Adv Pt. I am good right? 🤔

That is a real good starting point.  I would suggest you play what you have and later if you find yourself liking how one ship works more than the others then you can always pick more of them up.

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1 hour ago, C3gorach said:

Since we are all here about empowering new players (like me 😁) what you think is the "reasonable" number of each ship to have? Atm I have 1x TIE Reaper, 6x TIE/ln, 1x TIE Adv, 2x TIE/sk, and planning to get 1x Decimator and 2x TIE Adv Pt. I am good right? 🤔

At least 3x Lambdas.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

At least 3x Lambdas.

Wrong.

Omicron Group Pilot (43)    
    Collision Detector (6)    
    
Ship total: 49  Half Points: 25  Threshold: 5    
    
Omicron Group Pilot (43)    
    Collision Detector (6)    
    Moff Jerjerrod (10)    
    
Ship total: 59  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 5    
    
Omicron Group Pilot (43)    
    Collision Detector (6)    
    
Ship total: 49  Half Points: 25  Threshold: 5    
    
Omicron Group Pilot (43)    
Ship total: 43  Half Points: 22  Threshold: 5    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v6!s=200!168:112,,,,,:;168:112,,,50,,:;168:112,,,,,:;168:,,,,,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

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