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Cloaker

Well, that whole "Let's make the game easier for new players to get into" approach didn't last long...

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Posted (edited)

New players, 

I'm frustrated for you, even if you aren't. I've been trying to help bring some of you into this game over the last 6 months. I know you want to have all Hyperspace options readily available to you for your faction of choice. Unfortunately, as Wave 5 shows, if you are into Scum, Imperials, or Rebels you'll have to buy your Starvipers, RZ1 A-Wings and TIE Interceptors on the secondary market. Because they ain't coming to 2.0 for at least half a year, or more. Maybe Christmas. But it might even be 2020.

In the meanwhile, this  means you're now paying for a conversion kit ($40 on average) and hunting down out of print models. Once you do give someone other than FFG your money (because financially that makes total sense for them, quite charitable) you have to accept the risk that these ships might get cycled out of rotation. Then you're seeking your Kihraxz, E-Wings, and TIE Defenders outside FFG available product lines as well when they put those in next July or January. Welcome to Extended. 

I guess that's the long game here. It wasn't ever really about Hyperspace gradually growing and Extended morphing into it. It's kind of apparent now that it's the reverse. Hyperspace is the laboratory, feeding balance into extended. Hopefully. I can wait as a veteran player because I have all my options available. But if someone just started... 

I just feel it's a confusing and disappointing approach FFG has taken here for bringing new players in. Why make them spend money elsewhere? Why put them in a position to where they have to exponentially spend much more than is needed? If I was a stockholder or owner, I'd be kicking someone's *** over the business decision to drive new market share to product not currently offered directly by my own company. It's asinine strategies like this that inhibit the game's growth and accessibility. No matter how it is spun, it's just terrible judgment either way. 

I love this game very much, and will continue to try to get new people interested in it. But jeez, do they have to make it so hard to do sometimes? Bone headed choice here to bring ships into HS and not make them available for new players in Wave 5. I feel dumb for buying the 2.0 core set as a Christmas gift last December for several of my friends. Because I have to tell a mother who plays with her 12 year son Ebay is her only option to get him Soontir. I imagine patience will run its course fast then, game collects dust, and so much stuff comes out between now and then that it'll be too daunting to return to it.

Ridiculously embarrassing approach, FFG. I hope you reconsider, and fast. Because new players should have a chance to be competitive as well. They're your future growth sector, provided you don't make it difficult for them, you know? 

Edited by Cloaker

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7 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Because I have to tell a mother who plays with her 12 year son Ebay is her only option to get him Soontir.

I mean, that would've also been the case if Soontir wasn't rotated into hyperspace on account of not being reprinted. 

Also, why ebay? What happened to FLGS stock of 1.0 and/or just, like, amazon? 

I agree with your overall point (I wish Hyperspace had just been "2.0 Format" instead) but not with the specific complaints you've presented.

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1 minute ago, svelok said:

I mean, that would've also been the case if Soontir wasn't rotated into hyperspace on account of not being reprinted. 

Also, why ebay? What happened to FLGS stock of 1.0 and/or just, like, amazon? 

I agree with your overall point (I wish Hyperspace had just been "2.0 Format" instead) but not with the specific complaints you've presented.

FLGS stock is dried up in many places now around here. But bottom line is, it should be Easier to Get Hyperspace Options, not More Difficult. 

There's plenty of other complaints that might argue better or more valid, agreed, but the ones I present are by no means limited or outliers. The decision to make out of print ships legal in the only entry point format for the new core game has to be one of the most incredulously moronic things I've seen in gaming. Then again, this is only my second miniatures game I've ever played myself. 

 

I can tell you this honestly; if I knew this recent Hyperspace approach was the design intent, as a new player considering to get into it now, I wouldn't buy into it. And that's speaking as someone who's so passionate about the game that I'm traveling now out of town to play in tournaments. 

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There are plenty of legal and competitive options in both hyperspace (and extended) that are released in 2.0. Having out of print ships isn't ideal, but it keeps the format fresh.

It was that or get no new ships into hyperspace, which isn't necessarily good for the game either. Everything released in 2.0 is legal, and we can probably expect that to remain through at least Wave 4 with the decimator. It was either "No New Hyperspace Options" or "Some New Hyperspace Options from 1.0".

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4 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

There are plenty of legal and competitive options in both hyperspace (and extended) that are released in 2.0. Having out of print ships isn't ideal, but it keeps the format fresh.

It was that or get no new ships into hyperspace, which isn't necessarily good for the game either. Everything released in 2.0 is legal, and we can probably expect that to remain through at least Wave 4 with the decimator. It was either "No New Hyperspace Options" or "Some New Hyperspace Options from 1.0".

Not really. It easily could have been;

1- "Hey look, we have the VCX-100, Jumpmaster, TIE Advanced Prototype and M3-As coming up in wave 5. Maybe we should add them in Hyperspace to continue to expand our entry format?"

2- "Great idea. We'll have the product stream available to meet the demand, and keep our market shopping with us driving both core interest and overall revenues."

Brilliance ensues, money is made, and new players are still on equal ground. But instead we have;

1- "Not really sure what the release slate holds, haven't had time to walk down the hall and find out what they're prepping for release. What can we add to keep our game fresh for new players?"

2- (Ignores data showing logjam of redundant role design for swarm ship and ace platforms, see old poster of OOP product designs on back wall) "What about those?"

3- "Cool."

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Not really. It easily could have been;

1- "Hey look, we have the VCX-100, Jumpmaster, TIE Advanced Prototype and M3-As coming up in wave 5. Maybe we should add them in Hyperspace to continue to expand our entry format?"

2- "Great idea. We'll have the product stream available to meet the demand, and keep our market shopping with us driving both core interest and overall revenues."

Brilliance ensues, money is made, and new players are still on equal ground. But instead we have;

1- "Not really sure what the release slate holds, haven't had time to walk down the hall and find out what they're prepping for release. What can we add to keep our game fresh for new players?"

2- (Ignores data showing logjam of redundant role design for swarm ship and ace platforms, see old poster of OOP product designs on back wall) "What about those?"

3- "Cool."

Wave 5 is in like, 5-6 months. Hyperspace will undergo changes before then I'm sure....at least one at the next points update, and probably the Wave 4 release (or those will coincide). And then again potentially at the Wave 5 release.

Adding Wave 5 to hyperspace right now does precisely nothing to solve the hyperspace-legal distribution problem you're discussing EDIT: unless there are no hyperspace additions/subtractions until they are 2.0 released.

I can get a TIE interceptor for $9 on Amazon in the US. TIE bomber has been $6.50. That TIE/v1? $16 or $40, depending on the seller (both with limited quantities). For both you would need a conversion kit to play before Wave 5 release.

This is all IF a new player wants that ship, even though that player can be competitive with 2.0 released ships in hyperspace.

Edited by dsul413

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Posted (edited)

 

33 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Wave 5 is in like, 5-6 months. Hyperspace will undergo changes before then I'm sure....at least one at the next points update, and probably the Wave 4 release (or those will coincide). And then again potentially at the Wave 5 release.

Adding Wave 5 to hyperspace right now does precisely nothing to solve the hyperspace-legal distribution problem you're discussing.

I can get a TIE interceptor for $9 on Amazon in the US. That TIE/v1? $16 or $40, depending on the seller (both with limited quantities).

This is all IF a new player wants that ship, even though that player can be competitive with 2.0 released ships in hyperspace.

With all due respect, it doesn't matter what YOU can get it for. Your resources, interest, understanding of the game, and acceptance of the status quo is not that of all new players. There are a wide variety of target audiences out there. And all are not equal to you in opportunity costs. You're not the one across the table who might be confused, or disappointed, or reluctant. They don't even get as far as the word "IF" because the word becomes "WHY?"

Obviously the wave 5 available now in HS solves nothing. And yet it makes far better sense than what is in play currently; At least new players so inclined can find these ships, play them, and already get accustomed to them when they come out. Casuals who become competitive usually happen this way. Instead, in an attempt to keep their Extended market engaged differently (which might be indicative of the fallout of a splintered player base on sales) they opted to compromise the integrity of their new game format, designed for new players, to appease. That's really the indisputable sum of it here. The core question anyone who would counter here should ask is;

Why should a new player have to buy second hand products AT ALL, in order to be able to fully field all desired options for a list for a new game?

It's dumb business. Dumb. Dumb with a capital D. Dumb for the company, dumb for the employees who work there who want to see it solvent and successful, dumb for the players who want to buy from that company.

Consider the popular Legacy format of boardgames right now. (Risk, Pandemic, etc.) What if the publisher had ceased all production of those legacy games, rebooted their core versions, but then later gradually introduced Legacy components into them WHILE NOT HAVING THE MATERIALS AVAILABLE FOR SALE? It's ******* stupid. No two ways about it. A) *******. B) Stupid.

If I didn't love the game so much, I'd make more fun of them for doing it. If I was in charge and managed the company, I'd fire the imbecile who opted to squander revenue streams by driving new audiences to aftermarket, or worse, dismissing that potential group completely as their interest wanes in relation to their options. It flies in the face of all business reason.

I was fine with everything they had done with 2.0 and Hyperspace up to this point. But a wave 5 reveal containing nothing of what was added to their new format is most bewildering. And for new players overall, highly uncool. Those who argue otherwise either already have what they need and a part of the very segment FFG has catered to in compromising the Hyperspace format, or are so vested into gaming and affluent that they will accept it and press on. But the two different sets I bought for parents and their kids, and one I got for a friend who lives rural are neither of these, and that's who I am arguing for here. It's confusing and caustic game design for the newbie completist or competitive minded.

 

Edited by Cloaker

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30 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

I can get a TIE interceptor for $9 on Amazon in the US. TIE bomber has been $6.50. That TIE/v1? $16 or $40, depending on the seller (both with limited quantities). For both you would need a conversion kit to play before Wave 5 release.

This is all IF a new player wants that ship, even though that player can be competitive with 2.0 released ships in hyperspace.

This.  I never hear new players complaining about it.  The new players I know are in a great spot.  They all bought conversion kits then picked up models on the secondary market for a fraction of the price.  Complaining on behalf of imaginary marginalized groups is unhelpful.

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I am a new player. I have only bought the Ships released in second edition (no conversion kits). I am happily playing the game, and attending (albeit small) local tournaments. I really don't understand why I MUST have the TIE Interceptor for example. Soontir Fell would be cool to fly ok, but I can make lists, have fun and be competitive with the four options (Reaper,Fighter, Advanced, Striker) I have right now.

The Hyperspace "rotation" does have me buffled though. When they finally re-release the Interceptor (or any other ship) it might have rotated out...? 🤔

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

 

With all due respect, it doesn't matter what YOU can get it for. Your resources, interest, understanding of the game, and acceptance of the status quo is not that of all new players. There are a wide variety of target audiences out there. And all are not equal to you in opportunity costs. You're not the one across the table who might be confused, or disappointed, or reluctant. They don't even get as far as the word "IF" because the word becomes "WHY?"

Obviously the wave 5 available now in HS solves nothing. And yet it makes far better sense than what is in play currently; At least new players so inclined can find these ships, play them, and already get accustomed to them when they come out. Casuals who become competitive usually happen this way. Instead, in an attempt to keep their Extended market engaged differently (which might be indicative of the fallout of a splintered player base on sales) they opted to compromise the integrity of their new game format, designed for new players, to appease. That's really the indisputable sum of it here. The core question anyone who would counter here should ask is;

Why should a new player have to buy second hand products AT ALL, in order to be able to fully field all desired options for a list for a new game?

It's dumb business. Dumb. Dumb with a capital D. Dumb for the company, dumb for the employees who work there who want to see it solvent and successful, dumb for the players who want to buy from that company.

Consider the popular Legacy format of boardgames right now. (Risk, Pandemic, etc.) What if the publisher had ceased all production of those legacy games, rebooted their core versions, but then later gradually introduced Legacy components into them WHILE NOT HAVING THE MATERIALS AVAILABLE FOR SALE? It's ******* stupid. No two ways about it. A) *******. B) Stupid.

If I didn't love the game so much, I'd make more fun of them for doing it. If I was in charge and managed the company, I'd fire the imbecile who opted to squander revenue streams by driving new audiences to aftermarket, or worse, dismissing that potential group completely as their interest wanes in relation to their options. It flies in the face of all business reason.

I was fine with everything they had done with 2.0 and Hyperspace up to this point. But a wave 5 reveal containing nothing of what was added to their new format is most bewildering. And for new players overall, highly uncool. Those who argue otherwise either already have what they need and a part of the very segment FFG has catered to in compromising the Hyperspace format, or are so vested into gaming and affluent that they will accept it and press on. But the two different sets I bought for parents and their kids, and one I got for a friend who lives rural are neither of these, and that's who I am arguing for here. It's confusing and caustic game design for the newbie completist or competitive minded.

 

Your argument then is not against Wave 5, but against the idea that non-2.0 released ships are in hyperspace. Which is a 100% valid argument.  Regardless of what ship is released in Wave 4 or 5, that ship gets added to hyperspace. Easy solution.

The additions they made to hyperspace, especially for Empire, help shake up a limited meta for veteran players who also play hyperspace while doing little that denies competitive advantage to a new player, as 2.0 released ships are still very competitive in hyperspace.

If new players can find the ships, play them, and be accustomed to them when they come out...then they would already have them for 2.0 and wouldn't need to purchase the new product, because they likely have a conversion kit at that point (or proxying, which is a great way to have fun at the casual level). Which is why FFG has conversion kits. Stating that the materials are not available for sale, especially with the ships that have been added, is just truly not accurate. FFG has managed to protect the value of 1.0 stock that their customers (largely the stores that sell their product) already have through conversion kits. Some are becoming difficult to find and those are the ships that are appearing in these new waves, like the TIE/V1, which is actually protecting new players by getting them more expedient access to all ships. There is no other explanation for Lambas and Interceptors not being 2.0-packaged before Decimators and TIE/v1s.

With wave based productions there have often been out of print ships at some point. Ask Armada players about squadron packs. This is not really all that different.

Edited by dsul413

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1 minute ago, Old Sarge said:

This.  I never hear new players complaining about it.  The new players I know are in a great spot.  They all bought conversion kits then picked up models on the secondary market for a fraction of the price.  Complaining on behalf of imaginary marginalized groups is unhelpful.

Says you. Not says everyone. You get to make your assumption based on your sample size, which might be even smaller than most. It's easy to claim something is imaginary when you don't venture out to understand beyond your own limited sphere. This is how neglect forms, and eventually apathy.

And it is helpful, because if it prevents future dumbbell decisions like putting a ship 2 years out of print into rotation for their new player format, then some good was done for the game sake of those new players a year from now, and the game itself. 

The alternative, is decisions like this are what drive games into extinction faster due to the logistical chaos and frustration it brings. You're not seeing the forest for the trees, brother. The reason the fractional secondary sales are existing is for a reason. Massive amounts of people are selling their collections, templates, dice, etc in the Facebook groups right now. It is the highest it has ever been, with an undeniable correlation to the reduction of those seeking said items. And many new casuals are never going to go there in the first place. They're going to quit playing, or never decide to get into it, and you'll never know it. There's a reason we haven't seen sales figures released on it for over a year. Transition, I get it, and I'm willing to do my part to keep the game afloat and onboard new peeps, but for the love of Palp, we need to quit mucking it up with how it relates to a few as opposed to who it should be for all. FFG explicitly stated Hyperspace was the design area for new players, who could field their options. But that has officially gone opposite now, and nothing anyone says can change the fact that the game got less fully accessible for new players with the decision.

Say it with me; "No new player in the base format should have to buy aftermarket in order to field all legal options for their new game." It's that simple. Anyone who argues otherwise, is the very type of gaming elitist being catered to.

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3 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

I am a new player. I have only bought the Ships released in second edition (no conversion kits). I am happily playing the game, and attending (albeit small) local tournaments. I really don't understand why I MUST have the TIE Interceptor for example. Soontir Fell would be cool to fly ok, but I can make lists, have fun and be competitive with the four options (Reaper,Fighter, Advanced, Striker) I have right now.

The Hyperspace "rotation" does have me buffled though. When they finally re-release the Interceptor (or any other ship) it might have rotated out...? 🤔

Welcome to the game brother--it's so much better now!

It isn't that you HAVE to have it. It's that other new person who might not have your same tolerance and decide to never play from the onset after understanding that's how it works, or who fall off because it just isn't worth their time to figure it all out, the differences that even veteran players had to work through for months.

And if you're not flying Soontir, you're missing out! Either in enjoyment level (he's amazingly fun) proficiency (he will teach you alot about the importance of engagement and positioning) or sheer competitive diversity. (A football team composed of only running backs with no wide receiver is way easier to counter or gameplan for) I don't own Imperials, but if I did, he'd be the first one, with Countess Ryad a close second.

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10 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Your argument then is not against Wave 5, but against the idea that non-2.0 released ships are in hyperspace. Which is a 100% valid argument.  Regardless of what ship is released in Wave 4 or 5, that ship gets added to hyperspace. Easy solution.

The additions they made to hyperspace, especially for Empire, help shake up a limited meta for veteran players who also play hyperspace while doing little that denies competitive advantage to a new player, as 2.0 released ships are still very competitive in hyperspace.

If new players can find the ships, play them, and be accustomed to them when they come out...then they would already have them for 2.0 and wouldn't need to purchase the new product, because they likely have a conversion kit at that point (or proxying, which is a great way to have fun at the casual level). Which is why FFG has conversion kits. Stating that the materials are not available for sale, especially with the ships that have been added, is just truly not accurate. FFG has managed to protect the value of 1.0 stock that their customers (largely the stores that sell their product) already have through conversion kits. Some are becoming difficult to find and those are the ships that are appearing in these new waves, like the TIE/V1.

With wave based productions there have often been out of print ships at some point. Ask Armada players about squadron packs. This is not really all that different.

"Your argument then is not against Wave 5, but against the idea that non-2.0 released ships are in hyperspace." Total truth, yes. But there's more to it. It's that to appease Veteran extended players as well as entice them into the format, they dropped candy like Guri and Soontir on the ground without the ships to back them up for retail to new players.

"The additions they made to hyperspace, especially for Empire, help shake up a limited meta for veteran players who also play hyperspace while doing little that denies competitive advantage to a new player..." Empire is doing just fine in HS. TIE Salad, Two Ace + Reaper, and Ace + mini swarm are all evidence of that. And now veterans have even more advantage by virtue of OOP models (and their past experience.) Veteran players don't need anything shaken up. That's what the legacy game is for. Hyperspace was supposed to be the equal ground for new players and veterans alike, and now it isn't. Plain and simple. 

I don't dispute your other opinions---those are all options and aspects to consider, however limited or vast they might be depending on where you play. But the core issue here is, No new player in the base format should have to buy aftermarket in order to field all legal options for their new game.

I'm angry on behalf of the players we might never get due to stupidity like this, and the fringe ones who get put off visibly or not and decide to cease further engagement with the awesome game that it is. You'll never hear or encounter those players, because they just disappear while we keep on institutionalized with what is our norm until that one night when we wonder why we're down to only 3 players on game night at out local FLGS. When potential market starts to disappear in any business, well, you can do the research on how that eventually turns out, brother. :)

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58 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

It's that to appease Veteran extended players as well as entice them into the format, they dropped candy like Guri and Soontir on the ground without the ships to back them up for retail to new players. 

Yes, and its working.

I don't play Hyperspace anymore, I gave it a fair shot. I only converted over Imperial stuff from 1E, which was the lion's share of my X-Wing stuff. I tried made many different lists and played Hyperspace lists over an entire month that my local league was doing the Evacuation of D'Qar event. Rules were you played First Order or Resistance, or they allowed a Hyperspace from the other 3 factions since not everyone owned those two. I was putting ships on the table that I didn't want to fly.

I was not having fun playing X-Wing.

However, with announcement of the VT-49 and the TIE/v1, I am getting more interested in the Imperial options available for Hyperspace. Those are months away, however, and also coincidentally a couple of my favorite ships to fly, but not for everyone, and I think FFG knows that if they want to get traction with veteran Imperial players between now and then, they needed to spice up options. TIE/sa are great for those that like to fly generic lists, and the TIE/in for those that like to fly Aces.

 

---

Story Time:

So, I went back to playing Extended Imperial lists, and just making sure my opponent knew what I was flying before we got set up. The other day, I got some teeny bit friction from the league organizer when I showed up and stated that I was looking for an Extended game, and he told me, "We're flying Hyperspace right now, this month everyone's getting ready for the Hyperspace Trial," which is at that store in two and a half weeks. I responded, "Well, I'm getting ready for the CAC," which is two weeks after that at the same store and is Extended. He shrugged and dropped it, and I found someone willing to play against my Extended list, but its this kinda stuff that I was worried about when this whole Hyperspace/Extended stuff started to come up.

The league organizer is a great guy, btw, nothing against him.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Yes, and its working.

I don't play Hyperspace anymore, I gave it a fair shot. I only converted over Imperial stuff from 1E, which was the lion's share of my X-Wing stuff. I tried made many different lists and played Hyperspace lists over an entire month that my local league was doing the Evacuation of D'Qar event. Rules were you played First Order or Resistance, or they allowed a Hyperspace from the other 3 factions since not everyone owned those two. I was putting ships on the table that I didn't want to fly.

I was not having fun playing X-Wing.

However, with announcement of the VT-49 and the TIE/v1, I am getting more interested in the Imperial options available for Hyperspace. Those are months away, however, and also coincidentally a couple of my favorite ships to fly, but not for everyone, and I think FFG knows that if they want to get traction with veteran Imperial players between now and then, they needed to spice up options. TIE/sa are great for those that like to fly generic lists, and the TIE/in for those that like to fly Aces.

 

---

Story Time:

So, I went back to playing Extended Imperial lists, and just making sure my opponent knew what I was flying before we got set up. The other day, I got some teeny bit friction from the league organizer when I showed up and stated that I was looking for an Extended game, and he told me, "We're flying Hyperspace right now, this month everyone's getting ready for the Hyperspace Trial," which is at that store in two and a half weeks. I responded, "Well, I'm getting ready for the CAC," which is two weeks after that at the same store and is Extended. He shrugged and dropped it, and I found someone willing to play against my Extended list, but its this kinda stuff that I was worried about when this whole Hyperspace/Extended stuff started to come up.

The league organizer is a great guy, btw, nothing against him.

I hear ya, sir. And that's not cool either. But that's one fella with poor community organizational etiquette. My beef is with the approach that FFG communicated in its intent to make the game open to new players. Hyperspace wasn't intended for you or me. They made conversion kits for us. We have a network where we could get games to play how we wanted. (Hopefully you do) 

But hyperspace was for the new ones. The ones who didn't. The ones that could help break our game out a bit more. A safe place where they could start and have everything available to them in a way that made sense. 

See, I love hyperspace not for me, but for how easy it is for me to meet new people and teach or help them enjoy something that I think is cool. And it's a sour taste to go to, "That's not available for you as an option cause they're $40 a pop and out of print, but it is for that experienced guy there who got 3 of them 16 months ago." 

Because if Gunboats were HS legal in place of TIE Interceptors, that's the conversation we'd be having now. And that dog won't hunt with many first timers or parents etc. 

With all due respect, it's not about us. 

Edited by Cloaker

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

I hear ya, sir. And that's not cool either. But that's one fella with poor community organizational etiquette.

Nah, my league organizer is completely cool. He has a job of keeping everyone on the same page, aware of events, tracking games, etc. This month "the event" is the upcoming Hyperspace Trial, so he was just encouraging people to play Hyperspace lists, he let me know and dropped it the moment I pushed back. I have 0 issue with him, just the fact that I knew in my gut there were going to be days like this once the split format was announced.

 

59 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

My beef is with the approach that FFG communicated in its intent to make the game open to new players. Hyperspace wasn't intended for you or me. They made conversion kits for us. We have a network where we could get games to play how we wanted. (Hopefully you do) 

But hyperspace was for the new ones. The ones who didn't. The ones that could help break our game out a bit more. A safe place where they could start and have everything available to them in a way that made sense. 

See, I love hyperspace not for me, but for how easy it is for me to meet new people and teach or help them enjoy something that I think is cool. And it's a sour taste to go to, "That's not available for you as an option cause they're $40 a pop and out of print, but it is for that experienced guy there who got 3 of them 16 months ago." 

Because if Gunboats were HS legal in place of TIE Interceptors, that's the conversation we'd be having now. And that dog won't hunt with many first timers or parents etc. 

With all due respect, it's not about us. 

Well, it is about us, in that its about everyone in the X-Wing community. We happen to be a part of that larger picture.

I think the problem is that what Hyperspace is hasn't been really defined, and FFG is trying to encourage everyone to be a part of it. What I mean by that, is you have people like you asserting that Hyperspace is the newbie format, friendly for new players with only available content and less card interactions to remember, and on the other hand, you have other people claiming that Hyperspace is the serious competitive format and Extended is for casual play by less skilled players, or respected community organizers saying "Extended doesn't really matter" (jump to 01:29:30) and discouraging discussion of it.

These two target goals aren't entirely compatible, unless you goal is a player pool consisting totally of hyper-competative sharks feeding on a bunch of newbies.

So, they need to encourage the buy-in from veteran players to build up that player pool, otherwise, you end up with something... not really functional?

Edit: The big question is how quickly can they encourage that buy-in from the vets without disrupting the goal of encouraging new players?

PS I agree about the aftermarket being crap to deal with. On my own end, I've been trying to find /v1's to fill out my conversion kit dials since they added the generic Inquisitor and right now I only own one /v1 model, and they are like $30+ on Amazon for a $15 model kit. I'm glad they just got announced for re-release, hopefully I can find some lower prices soon.

Edited by kris40k

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5 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

This is trivial.

With genuine respect and a 8,043 rating, it would be, to you. 

But then, this goes back to what was said before. It isn't about you. Grasp that, and there's a beginning to understand the core problem. 

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12 minutes ago, kris40k said:

what Hyperspace is hasn't been really defined,

🤨 /sarc I just love digging up months old articles...

"At the same time, by redefining and truncating the list of potential squad builds within the Hyperspace game mode, we make it easier for newer players to explore these options—and, importantly, to afford the starship expansions that introduce the pilots and upgrades they hope to fly.

As the Hyperspace game mode keeps the game fresh, it adds to the ways you can enjoy competitive X-Wing, and it helps make the game and its competitive environment more accessible to newer players. All of this results in more diversity."

From the Jan 16 2019 "Jump to Hyperspace" Article. Below the pic of the gal wearing the white shirt with a T-65 line art on it.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/16/jump-to-hyperspace/

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Nah, my league organizer is completely cool. He has a job of keeping everyone on the same page, aware of events, tracking games, etc. This month "the event" is the upcoming Hyperspace Trial, so he was just encouraging people to play Hyperspace lists, he let me know and dropped it the moment I pushed back. I have 0 issue with him, just the fact that I knew in my gut there were going to be days like this once the split format was announced.

 

Well, it is about us, in that its about everyone in the X-Wing community. We happen to be a part of that larger picture.

I think the problem is that what Hyperspace is hasn't been really defined, and FFG is trying to encourage everyone to be a part of it. What I mean by that, is you have people like you asserting that Hyperspace is the newbie format, friendly for new players with only available content and less card interactions to remember, and on the other hand, you have other people claiming that Hyperspace is the serious competitive format and Extended is for casual play by less skilled players, or respected community organizers saying "Extended doesn't really matter" (jump to 01:29:30) and discouraging discussion of it.

These two target goals aren't entirely compatible, unless you goal is a player pool consisting totally of hyper-competative sharks feeding on a bunch of newbies.

So, they need to encourage the buy-in from veteran players to build up that player pool, otherwise, you end up with something... not really functional?

Edit: The big question is how quickly can they encourage that buy-in from the vets without disrupting the goal of encouraging new players?

PS I agree about the aftermarket being crap to deal with. On my own end, I've been trying to find /v1's to fill out my conversion kit dials since they added the generic Inquisitor and right now I only own one /v1 model, and they are like $30+ on Amazon for a $15 model kit. I'm glad they just got announced for re-release, hopefully I can find some lower prices soon.

Lots of agreement here. I'm just frustrated and venting for the people who don't know to or will never do so, because an obstacle has been placed (that never needed to be) to their opportunity to be on level ground in terms of options and what was communicated to be designer intent. 

Edited by Cloaker

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

With genuine respect and a 8,043 rating, it would be, to you. 

But then, this goes back to what was said before. It isn't about you. Grasp that, and there's a beginning to understand the core problem. 

If a local in our group was looking for those they would have them in their hand that day. From me. From lots of other locals who would be happy to sell or lend them. There are all kinds of options.

 

if you have a community large enough to have competitive events you can easily get them what they’re after. If you don’t then so what?

Edited by TasteTheRainbow

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 /sarc I just love digging up months old articles...

"At the same time, by redefining and truncating the list of potential squad builds within the Hyperspace game mode, we make it easier for newer players to explore these options—and, importantly, to afford the starship expansions that introduce the pilots and upgrades they hope to fly.

As the Hyperspace game mode keeps the game fresh, it adds to the ways you can enjoy competitive X-Wing, and it helps make the game and its competitive environment more accessible to newer players. All of this results in more diversity."

From the Jan 16 2019 "Jump to Hyperspace" Article. Below the pic of the gal wearing the white shirt with a T-65 line art on it.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/16/jump-to-hyperspace/

This is the ultimate mic drop on the topic to anyone who'd refute, really. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Why should a new player have to buy second hand products AT ALL, in order to be able to fully field all desired options for a list for a new game?

Um, cuz they're new??

Maybe they should just cut their teeth on what's available for awhile, and worry about winning a hyperspace tournament or extended play for later.

I got into M:TG around 4th Edition, and I never thought to cry about not having moxes.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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4 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

If a local in our group was looking for those they would have them in their hand that day. From me. From lots of other locals who would be happy to sell or lend them. There are all kinds of options.

 

if you have a community large enough to have competitive events you can easily get them what they’re after. If you don’t then so what?

Great intent, wrong logic. The root issue you're missing. Enabling poor judgment product design doesn't alleviate the issue. 

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