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Ryfterek

Fleeing + Pattern Analyzer

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Interesting bit brought up to me by a fellow local player.

An X-wing T70 equipped with Pattern Analyzer dials in 4K facing the edge of the play area. Attempting to execute this manoeuvre, it places the fighter - say - half a baselength off the mat. 

Now, which rule actually prevents the X-wing from using the Patter Analyzer to boost back into the play area, given that:

- PA allows one to perform an action before the maneouvre is completely executed and before all the triggers firing off the "(fully) executing a maneouvre" kick in - what I think must have been used as an argument in numerous other discussions.

- Boosting is forbidden only if it would cause you to flee, not "outside of play area". 

- Fleeing is checked after executing a maneouvre

Help, for while I can tell it feels wrong to judge in favour of this interaction, I am short of ideas how to judge against it.

Cheers.

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• Before a fleeing ship is removed from the game, the only effects it 
resolves before being removed from the game are effects that trigger 
when it flees.

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@Croste that was one od my first takes on it as well, but there comes a but: Should the ship be considered fleeing already before it has completely executed it's maneouvre? 

Ship is considered fleeing when it is outside the play area after executing a maneouvre.

Executing maneouvre consists of two steps: Moving according to a template and checking difficulty. 

PA puts an action opportunity window between these two steps. 

I'm not trying to argue in favour of this gimmic, but I do understand the other side's argument and what you've quoted does not help counter it. 

 

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I see what your saying now...

Re read the post. I'm pretty sure RAI,  will be enforced in any tournament. 

Because of it being a game effect. I'm sure it even supersede the completition of the maneuver. 

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22 minutes ago, Croste said:

I'm pretty sure RAI,  will be enforced in any tournament. 

So am I. Can hardly imagine anyone allowing that at a high-stake match without an explicit acknowledgement by FFG. 

Yet here I am, often filling in for the judge's role in my local community. Trying my best to make educated, argumented decisions. Hence why I'm looking for something more than "I'm sure it shouldn't work this way" of an argument. Thanks for help looking. ;)

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This is what bothers me recently...

—> all these rules discussions and loopholes and RAW/RAI and especially RAILTTB (RulesAsILikeThemToBe)    😞     

Of course no offence to you! 

   I do it as well; but the amount of it recently...🤨

Its just a general feeling... (and a general rant; sorry!)

 

 

 

My approach to your question: if it’s off the mat it’s gone. Period. 

I even don’t need any rules for that! We agreed to play on the mat - if you fly off it... 🤷🏻‍♂️

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RAW this is fine, even though it's definitely not very likable.

since there is nothing indicating you do not fully execute the maneuver unless you overlap another ship, a red maneuver ending outside of the play area is not finished before the check difficulty step has been completed. therefore, pattern analyzers requirements can be fulfilled even when the ship in question is outside of the play area.

if you manage to boost or barrel roll (you cannot do both to get back in, since if one of these action would cause the ship to flee, it fails) back onto the play area, you are indeed no longer outside of the play area when the check difficulty step comes around and ends, which would result in the ship not fleeing.

this actually allows play outside of the play area, which seems like it could have further undesirable consequences. it's worth noting that at least it's not very likely to happen and also quite difficult to really get an advantage out of. i would very much like to see it be disallowed, though.

checking to see if a ship has fled should simply be moved to after the Manuever ship-step of executing a maneuver. or a ship should be considered to have fled immediately when it's placed outside of the play area.

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5 minutes ago, meffo said:

RAW this is fine, even though it's definitely not very likable.

since there is nothing indicating you do not fully execute the maneuver unless you overlap another ship, a red maneuver ending outside of the play area is not finished before the check difficulty step has been completed. therefore, pattern analyzers requirements can be fulfilled even when the ship in question is outside of the play area.

if you manage to boost or barrel roll (you cannot do both to get back in, since if one of these action would cause the ship to flee, it fails) back onto the play area, you are indeed no longer outside of the play area when the check difficulty step comes around and ends, which would result in the ship not fleeing.

this actually allows play outside of the play area, which seems like it could have further undesirable consequences. it's worth noting that at least it's not very likely to happen and also quite difficult to really get an advantage out of. i would very much like to see it be disallowed, though.

checking to see if a ship has fled should simply be moved to after the Manuever ship-step of executing a maneuver. or a ship should be considered to have fled immediately when it's placed outside of the play area.

🤨 Last bullet point.

Flee

A ship FLEES if any part of its base is outside the play area after it executes a maneuver. A ship that flees is removed from the game.

  • While a ship moves, the ship does not flee if only the template is outside the play area.
  • Before a fleeing ship is removed from the game, the only effects it resolves before being removed from the game are effects that trigger when it flees.
  • A ship cannot flee while resolving a boost, barrel roll, decloak, or SLAM.
  • Partially executing a maneuver can cause a ship to flee if any part of its base is outside the play area after the maneuver.

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9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Last bullet point.

Flee

A ship FLEES if any part of its base is outside the play area after it executes a maneuver. A ship that flees is removed from the game.

  • While a ship moves, the ship does not flee if only the template is outside the play area.
  • Before a fleeing ship is removed from the game, the only effects it resolves before being removed from the game are effects that trigger when it flees.
  • A ship cannot flee while resolving a boost, barrel roll, decloak, or SLAM.
  • Partially executing a maneuver can cause a ship to flee if any part of its base is outside the play area after the maneuver.

i think you misunderstand me here. the last bullet point means you can get blocked out of the play area and forced to flee because you don't fit. it has noting to do with fully executing a red maneuver (which is the requirement for pattern analyzer to trigger) and ending up outside of the play area, using the action granted by pattern analyzer to boost or barrel roll back into the play area, thus not fleeing.

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Posted (edited)

Indeed. Awkward as it is, fleeing only triggers after you execute a maneuver. Which means that if you can activate, somehow be outside the play area, but legally get back inside before you reach that point, you aren't fleeing.

Once you're officially declared as fleeing, bullet #2 locks you out of anything else which might have helped you save yourself (like using SLAM to get back into the play area), but before that point you're still in play (much like if a maneuver template went off the board but then came back in again)

It's going to be a very niche case - it requries a ship equipped with pattern analyser to perform a red move such that part of its base is outside the play area but not by enough that it can't place a boost or barrel roll template.

On the other hand, it is credible for it to occur. A T-70 pulling a K-turn that lands the back end of the base off the board would be entitled to boost, and this would - as far as I can tell  -"save" the ship. 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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22 minutes ago, meffo said:

@Magnus Grendel boosting with the template outside of the play area is fine, as long as your final position wouldn't cause you to flee.

i agree this is really niche, but t70s are often equipped with pattern analyzer - and it really opens up some possibilities for them.

My apologies. For some reason I had it in my head that the template wasn't allowed to go outside the play area for a boost (in the same way you can't boost over an obstacle even though you can normally move over one). 

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1 hour ago, The Penguin UK said:

If you're off the play area, do you count as fully executing a manouver?  Pattern Analyser requires the red move to be fully executed while you perform the action, which is why you can perform the action after bumping...

I first thought to go down that route to argue against it, but fully executing only cares about overlaps of ships currently.  However, that'd also be a place where you could adjust the base rules--define a ship off the play area as not fully executing it's maneuver.  Fixing the Fleeing definition would be better, though.

//

Anyhow, the possible interaction is one which really irks me.  The kind of rules-lawyering I cannot like.  The reality of X-Wing is that FFG doesn't have great technical writers, and isn't particularly responsive at fixing errors in rules and language.  I don't have a good rules argument against it, but it seems so intuitively dumb as ****.

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Sooooo, since you all wanna play off the mat.... 

What if we are playing in a sunken 3x3 box area that cannot complete a maneuver outside of the play area?

or

What if my Decimator/cell phone/big gulp soda is sitting there. Am I obligated to move my drink? What if I say ‘nah’ ... ? 

Just curious. Also this is a bit tongue and cheek, so don’t be hatin’ !!!

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It should be as simple as this. At any time your ship is placed down at the other end of a maneuver template, if any part of your ship’s base is off the playing area, you have fleed the play area. The end, no actions/shenanigans.

 

🤔

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7 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Sooooo, since you all wanna play off the mat.... 

What if we are playing in a sunken 3x3 box area that cannot complete a maneuver outside of the play area?

or

What if my Decimator/cell phone/big gulp soda is sitting there. Am I obligated to move my drink? What if I say ‘nah’ ... ? 

Just curious. Also this is a bit tongue and cheek, so don’t be hatin’ !!!

The template can go off the mat as long as the manoeuvre ends on it so don't play in a 3x3 pit I guess.

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9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The template can go off the mat as long as the manoeuvre ends on it so don't play in a 3x3 pit I guess.

Which is impossible to do except with a turn (correct?) and you can now use the hash marks to complete it from the side. 

 

Long live the 3x3 box!

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Therefore something like this could also apply to Tie Strikers? 

 

Let's put this example: 1 bank that puts one corner of the base outside of the mat and then 1 hard turn that puts the ship back again into the mat. 

How would that work?

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

If you start touching the edge at 45 degrees or more to it, you can do a turn (Or t-roll) with the template extending out of the mat for most of its length. As long as your whole base ends on the mat the move is legal.

Exactly. 

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54 minutes ago, Arma Quattro said:

Therefore something like this could also apply to Tie Strikers? 

 

Let's put this example: 1 bank that puts one corner of the base outside of the mat and then 1 hard turn that puts the ship back again into the mat. 

How would that work?

won't work. adaptive ailerons is a maneuver. if you are outside the play area after executing a maneuver, you have fled.

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