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Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun

Star Wars Episode IX The Rise Of Skywalker

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3 hours ago, Cr0aker said:

Finally watched the trailer. The following are my thoughts / reactions.

"Sounds more like the continued rise of maREY sue."  "Oh look, I'm standing alone in the middle of the desert for no reason. Waiting to use my laser sword to kill my opponent in a spaceship that could vaporize me with or without said laser sword."

"Final?  Thank God"

"When did ancestor worship /  reincarnation become a Star Wars thing?"

"Moar deathstar"

"I'm out."

 

You never know, it could be a descendant of that TIE Fighter in Rogue One's trailer that was mysteriously absent when the actual movie released.

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On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 5:39 PM, gadwag said:

 

Please stop trying to sow division and anger in the community. We don't want this behaviour from anyone. 

To be clear: I don't support people raging at Mark Hamill for posting the original stars in the cockpit, just as I don't support you threatening the Story Group if they blow up the Falcon.

Oh, stop it with "threatening the Story Group".  Do you also believe Trump conspired with Putin?

As for "sowing division", that crop has long been sown, reaped and sent to market.

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21 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

Do you also believe Trump conspired with Putin?

Can we just not go there? Seriously, there's no need to throw politics into this stuff. Talk about the movies, comics, games, even Lucas film and Disney, but please no IRL politics. We in-fight as fans enough, so please try to keep something this incendiary far away from the forum.

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19 hours ago, ArcHammer said:

You never know, it could be a descendant of that TIE Fighter in Rogue One's trailer that was mysteriously absent when the actual movie released.

What are you talking about? That regular TIE Fighter we see staring at Jyn Erso or a new hidden TIE variant?

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On 5/3/2019 at 12:36 PM, ArcHammer said:

You never know, it could be a descendant of that TIE Fighter in Rogue One's trailer that was mysteriously absent when the actual movie released.

 

10 hours ago, Odanan said:

What are you talking about? That regular TIE Fighter we see staring at Jyn Erso or a new hidden TIE variant?

When Jyn "  goes up onto the communication tower and is waaaaaaaaay out on the inconvenient control spar, the TV commercial shows a TIE coming up at point blank range and hovering there.  This never happened in the film.

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2 minutes ago, BenderIsGreat said:

When Jyn "  goes up onto the communication tower and is waaaaaaaaay out on the inconvenient control spar, the TV commercial shows a TIE coming up at point blank range and hovering there.  This never happened in the film.

I know. I though you were talking about a new TIE variant that didn't make it to the film.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder If Rey was a boy if everyone would be so angry. He'd still be JJ's self insertion / wish fulfilment character. But with reproductive organs on the outside instead of on the inside.

I just feel like most people moaning about Rey would be fine with Rey if she was a man.

A Mary Sue is a thing that happens in story telling, and honestly I do think Rey is one. In TFA especially. Shows up the original protagonists and is seemingly much better at things than you'd expect her to be. ...

But a Mary Sue is a plot device, not an insult, it's not a reason something is bad, it's just a word people seem to have latched on to. 

Wesley Crusher in TNG is absolutely a Mary Sue, and lots of people hate him for it. But he hit the sweet spot for me. I was the right age, an outcast and felt a lot of affinity with Wes. He made me think I could do something good with my life and not listen to the people bullying me, kicking me to the kerb, and laughing at me. 

Rey will be that for a lot of girls that are watching Star Wars now. And I love that. I mean she comes across like a massive star wars fangirl for sure, but starwars fan girls are the best!

Anyway I likes TFA, it has issues, but these "issues" people have with plot or what they think is "realistic" are crazy. You can watch ESB with that hat on and absolutely rip it apart. I just don't.

TLJ kicked **** for me, I grew up with Luke Skywalker just like you all did and I think what happened with him is perfect. And none of you have any more or less of a right than I do to an option. 

Just so you know, all the millions of people that don't have an issue with TLJ exist. They just aren't shouting on the internet about it. You aren't in the majority because you see everyone around your crying that Luke wasn't your big **** hero. You are just in an echo chamber.

Bringing Palpatine back though.... classic JJ. I think RJ did great work in repairing the nonsense that JJ started on. And JJ is going to fanfic it back up again.

Oh on Rey's parents, I spoke to people that loved the idea that Rey didn't need a legacy to be a hero. Women especially. It's a better story to some than this constant revelations of family connections etc. I think people are getting sick of it now, after the new Harry Potter where a lot of it didn't go down too well I hope things can stop doing this and have an original thought.  But... It feels like maybe JJ is going to have Palpy be Anakins dad, so ....

Edited by Talonbane Cobra

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Who liked the film Creed? I think Adonis Johnson is a Mary Sue. Goes the distance with the best fighter in his class with hardly any training. It's stupid. Oh and come to think it that goes for Rocky too. Oh and wait... What about Doctor Strange? You guys all like that right? 

WELL! Actually they aren't because they are protagonists, and the definition of a Mary Sue is someone who is a non protagonists. By that definition though Rey really is not one either!

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1 hour ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

[snip]

TLJ kicked **** for me, I grew up with Luke Skywalker just like you all did and I think what happened with him is perfect. And none of you have any more or less of a right than I do to an option.

[snip]

Long post, so I didn't quote all of it, but twice I had to double check it wasn't me who wrote it because your opinions sound exactly like mine!

You make me want to put Talonbane Cobra on the table just because it feels like I know and respect the guy a lot more now! :D

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On 5/5/2019 at 6:09 AM, BenderIsGreat said:

 

When Jyn "  goes up onto the communication tower and is waaaaaaaaay out on the inconvenient control spar, the TV commercial shows a TIE coming up at point blank range and hovering there.  This never happened in the film.

If I recall directly, the way the scene was meant to play out was that an X-Wing was going to come in and blow the TIE away.  They decided not to go down that route as they'd literally just had the same effective shot with the AT-AT and an X-Wing.  Hence, during the reshoots; they changed the scene.

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15 hours ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

I wonder If Rey was a boy if everyone would be so angry.

YEs i WOULD have the same feeling of 'mark sue' if rey was a roy...

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LTuser said:

YEs i WOULD have the same feeling of 'mark sue' if rey was a roy...

Imagine if she'd single handedly blown up the death star with no training.

If she was a boy you'd be saying, yeah but the controls in the T-65 are the same as in the skyhopper, and he told us he used to bullseye wamp rats. So it's all.ok.

I just mean that if people like something they explain away or accept things like that. Luke grabbed his lightsaber from the snow in Empire after a couple of tried, with the audience having no idea at that point Jedi could do that. Then all he had was a few days (at best) training, and was using the mind trick. Which we never see him learn, just witness one time. None or what Rey does is new, unlike Luke. And Rey's skill as a fighter is more believable than Luke. You never see him training with a saber. But Rey is already a talented staff fighter as we see. And why wouldn't she be she's had to fight to stay alive her whole life?

I definitely think Rey is a fangirl, and partially JJ wish fulfilment, but she's easy to hand wave in to the universe if you want to.

So why don't you want to?

Edited by Talonbane Cobra

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2019 at 3:40 AM, Talonbane Cobra said:

Imagine if she'd single handedly blown up the death star with no training.

If she was a boy you'd be saying, yeah but the controls in the T-65 are the same as in the skyhopper, and he told us he used to bullseye wamp rats. So it's all.ok.

I just mean that if people like something they explain away or accept things like that. Luke grabbed his lightsaber from the snow in Empire after a couple of tried, with the audience having no idea at that point Jedi could do that. Then all he had was a few days (at best) training, and was using the mind trick. Which we never see him learn, just witness one time. None or what Rey does is new, unlike Luke. And Rey's skill as a fighter is more believable than Luke. You never see him training with a saber. But Rey is already a talented staff fighter as we see. And why wouldn't she be she's had to fight to stay alive her whole life?

 I definitely think Rey is a fangirl, and partially JJ wish fulfilment, but she's easy to hand wave in to the universe if you want to.

So why don't you want to?

I think you're right up to a point.

Luke's biggest feats in the first film were at least partially setup, but largely he was a bit of a Garry Stu, the male equivalent to Marry Sue. There's some throwaway lines about bulls eyeing womp rats, but we don't see him pilot anything until he's in his X-wing. He's somehow able to avoid being shot to death on the Death Star, despite the army of troopers aboard. The audience let's it go though because him and his friends, even the princess who everyone assumed would be just another damsel in distress, all work together very competently to get out of their dangerous situations. Luke doesn't just whip out his saber and cut down ever trooper in his way. He's actually not that good with a sword at this point and as such never even attempts to use it in a fight. The sequels however, benefited tremendously from the simple passage of time. Clearly month's, to a full year have passed between films by the time we see Luke pulling off lifting his saber with his mind. That's plenty of time to allow for the audience to say, "ok I guess he kept practicing after Ben died, and picked up some neat tricks. It looks like Ben's ghost even talks to him sometimes, so that might be part of it too." When the 3rd movie came out, there was an even greater gap of time between films, which is confirmed to be about 3 years in universe. When we see Luke hand-wave away 2 guards, the audience just fills in the blanks again, and decides he must have spent at least some of those years training with Yoda. That simple passage of time rescues Luke from full on Marry Sue status, just by leaving what exactly he was up to ambiguous and keeping his powers grounded in what we've seen in previous films. Vader can choke people to death, all Luke can do with no real training is lift his laser sword. Ben can mind trick people, and after several years of working on it, so can Luke.

Rey, just kinda has powers right off the bat, though. No mentor to introduce the concepts to her, and less time training than Luke. There's never that moment where we see her struggle to figure this stuff out, she just kinda does it. When she does get her training, it's basically impossible to know how long she was there, but it couldn't have been long at all seeing as the entire time we're seeing her with Luke, we are also cutting back to the chase, and that's ignoring that Skywalker has no real interest in teaching her anything. There's no feeling of time passing between 7 and 8 either, so we can't just assume she's spent a few months trying to figure out how her powers work. It doesn't matter that she get's trained at all though, because she was doing awesome stuff with the force with literally 0 training, so they needed to explain how. I think the biggest reason for the backlash and Marry Sue accusations, is that terrible throwaway explanation from Snoke.

She's as strong as she needs to be to match the villain, basically because the Force decided that's how it's gonna be now. Ignore that it's never ever been like that in the past. The Force is now a self balancing thing that makes Jedi when a strong Sith lord rises and vice versa. That just feels so unsatisfying, when we see Luke struggle and even fail before coming into his own at the start of ROTJ. Rey's just already there because she is the special, and the plot says so. Luke was the special too, but he didn't just wake up one day with the power to mind trick people, or raise a ship from the swamp. There was effort put into getting to that point. When Luke pulls off his one and only force related feat in EP 4, it's with his mentors ghost walking him through it, while doing something that he's already fairly skilled at normally. It takes time to get to lifting stuff, and knocking people out with a gesture. 

Edited by Hippie Moosen

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I asked Ryan Johnson directly about the force balance thing. He said that it wasn't his Intention to suggest that. And that sith are parasites, that unbalance the force. Jedi are symbiotic. The lines in TLJ are pretty daft, but just assume it's snoke giving Kylo a hard time.

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45 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

I asked Ryan Johnson directly about the force balance thing. He said that it wasn't his Intention to suggest that. And that sith are parasites, that unbalance the force. Jedi are symbiotic. The lines in TLJ are pretty daft, but just assume it's snoke giving Kylo a hard time.

The problem with just tossing out Snokes balance explanation though, is it's the only explanation the movie provides for Rey's powers. Rey beating Kylo in their first fight back in TFA is pretty easy to explain, since as you stated Rey knows how to fight already, and Kylo was injured from earlier in the film. Rey being able to influence peoples minds though, well no explanation is even attempted there. One minute she doesn't know what the force is, and the next she's manipulating it like it's second nature. She doesn't have any lineage to speak of, something that TLJ takes great pains to ensure is understood. Her master is not teaching her anything but history lessons, and he pretty quickly makes it clear he wont teach her much else. Snokes auto-balance/awakening explanation is all that there is. With that explanation, she has powers because the plot says so, without that explanation, she has powers because... *shrugs*. It's really hard for me to see her as anything but a Marry Sue after 8. With 7, I figured that what didn't quite make sense would be touched on, but the explanation offered just feels like you're peeking behind the curtain and seeing where the writer just stopped thinking.

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I think you are dwelling too much on it. That force explanation is ****, it really annoys me, and makes no sense, but then neither does the thing about being digested in a xarlaac for 1000 years. 

I really want Rey to be a clone of Luke or something. But at the end of the day I think it's not that hard to believe that a person just is naturally gifted. I watch all those super hero films and most of them are suddenly great at something. She could have heard stories about the jedi mind control and thought it was worth a punt.

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:18 PM, Talonbane Cobra said:

I just feel like most people moaning about Rey would be fine with Rey if she was a man.

You must have missed the reaction to Annie "Spinning Is A Good Trick/Now This Is Pod Racing" Skywalker in Episode One.

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31 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

I think you are dwelling too much on it. That force explanation is ****, it really annoys me, and makes no sense, but then neither does the thing about being digested in a xarlaac for 1000 years. 

 I really want Rey to be a clone of Luke or something. But at the end of the day I think it's not that hard to believe that a person just is naturally gifted. I watch all those super hero films and most of them are suddenly great at something. She could have heard stories about the jedi mind control and thought it was worth a punt.

I would love to just be able to assume she's gifted and leave it at that, but that has never been a thing in Star Wars. We've seen characters that are force sensitive do some stuff with the force untrained, but never to the degree of Rey. Anakin is unnaturally gifted as a pilot and mechanic, but otherwise he's just a normal kid when he's first introduced. Luke, is almost completely normal. He learned how to fly an air speeder that happened to have controls similar to that of the fighter he pilots, but otherwise he was just a typical farm boy. He knows how to drive his family's vehicles, and he knows how to shoot cuz what else is there to do out in the middle of nowhere? This is the problem with writing in a universe that has had as many movies, novels, etc. as Star Wars. There are rules that the fans will remember. If you want to bend or break them, you had better be able to provide an in universe explanation as to how.

Also, her just being gifted is rather dull from a story standpoint. A supernaturally gifted character doesn't have to grow or change as a person in order to gain their powers. They just already have them. It feels cheap, from a story standpoint, and is actually a hallmark of the Marry Sue archetype. If you can look past this stuff and genuinely love this character, more power to ya, but I hope you get why it's such a sticking point for some people. Not everyone that dislikes Rey thinks that women in media is the worst thing ever. There are issues and inconsistencies that have nothing to do with gender. Gender flip the entire cast, or just Rey, and all the problems still exist.

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19 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:

I would love to just be able to assume she's gifted and leave it at that, but that has never been a thing in Star Wars. We've seen characters that are force sensitive do some stuff with the force untrained, but never to the degree of Rey. Anakin is unnaturally gifted as a pilot and mechanic, but otherwise he's just a normal kid when he's first introduced. Luke, is almost completely normal. He learned how to fly an air speeder that happened to have controls similar to that of the fighter he pilots, but otherwise he was just a typical farm boy. He knows how to drive his family's vehicles, and he knows how to shoot cuz what else is there to do out in the middle of nowhere? This is the problem with writing in a universe that has had as many movies, novels, etc. as Star Wars. There are rules that the fans will remember. If you want to bend or break them, you had better be able to provide an in universe explanation as to how.

Also, her just being gifted is rather dull from a story standpoint. A supernaturally gifted character doesn't have to grow or change as a person in order to gain their powers. They just already have them. It feels cheap, from a story standpoint, and is actually a hallmark of the Marry Sue archetype. If you can look past this stuff and genuinely love this character, more power to ya, but I hope you get why it's such a sticking point for some people. Not everyone that dislikes Rey thinks that women in media is the worst thing ever. There are issues and inconsistencies that have nothing to do with gender. Gender flip the entire cast, or just Rey, and all the problems still exist.

And yet, nobody would talk about them.

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2 hours ago, Hippie Moosen said:

 Rey being able to influence peoples minds though, well no explanation is even attempted there. One minute she doesn't know what the force is, and the next she's manipulating it like it's second nature. 

Someone clearly has not watched TFA close enough.

Overconfident Kylo tries to mindread Rey, and catastrophically fails. As suddenly someone has enough force in herself to resist (albeit not without problems), push back and stumble into Kylo's brain. She is then amazed, where she ended up, what she sees and learns there. She also states things she clearly has seen in Kylo.

Btw, Rey's first mind influence fails.

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38 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And yet, nobody would talk about them.

And that attitude is why it's so hard for discussions like this to not become angry. People have been criticizing movies long before the idea of the female protagonist. Star Wars is no exception. Just look back at the Prequel backlash. Lots of the Marry Sue complaints got lobbed at Anakin, they just didn't use that term, instead they whined about medichlorians and how they cheapened the idea of the force for so many fans, and removed the mystique from how Vader got so strong. He just is because he's got so many force cells. 

Don't make this about gender, when that's not at all what is being derided. This hypothetical only serves to shame people for disliking a movie by branding them as sexist. That's pretty messed up IMO. If someone is a fan of something, they may get critical of it, and if you don't like what they're saying, feel free to counter their points with your own or just move on with your day. Don't put out nonsense like this to paint them as crazies though. It's disingenuous at best, and just straight up rude at worst.

3 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Someone clearly has not watched TFA close enough.

Overconfident Kylo tries to mindread Rey, and catastrophically fails. As suddenly someone has enough force in herself to resist (albeit not without problems), push back and stumble into Kylo's brain. She is then amazed, where she ended up, what she sees and learns there. She also states things she clearly has seen in Kylo.

Btw, Rey's first mind influence fails.

That is very likely. I watched it once when it was in Theaters and twice after it was on DVD, but that's it. Her getting some idea of how to do the force stuff from Kylo's probe seems like a decent idea I suppose. It's definitely different which is nice. I must've just mentally blocked it after seeing TLJ. This method of her learning from Kylo takes a bit of agency away from Rey, but she's already the most reactive protagonist in the series so that wont change much with a single detail. I just wish there was something she had to actually do to get those powers, rather than just reacting, but it is way better than TLJ's explanation. Sorry to rag on a point for so long without all the info. At least this helps me like TFA a little more. It's a good movie that dots more i's and crosses more t's than I had been giving it credit.

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