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Jake the Hutt

Underwhelming Dewback?

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2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

It's a surge.

I don't see how there is a debate here.  It looks like a surge and it would be entirely too powerful and redundant to other keywords (sharpshooter, impact etc.)

Critical X is like a less reliable hybrid of Sharpshooter and Impact 

I agree with you on the game mechanic side. Keep in mind, FFG loves power creep to sell it's new toys. I wouldn't put it past them to do something like this. On my 32" 4k screen zoomed up to 300% the symbol is a bit more distorted than the hit on the armor 1 text however it is  symmetrical and solid just like a hit. Visually it looks like a hit. Now on the clone trooper preview that one is too distorted to tell as well however that one actually looks more like a surge than a hit. Right now we simply don't have a clear enough image to say for sure.  We'll have to wait until the next unit specific preview article goes up in a month or so.

 

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Based on my extensive knowledge of utilizing photoshop and keen eyes. When you zoom in on a pixalated image the colors will blend into shades of grey if there was white in the center or like how the surge icon looks. You can clearly see the grey-ing around the critical icon in the same card. Next we can compare the hit icon that is black on the T-21 card with the hit icon on the unit card and they are almost indistinguishable from each other. With that being said the card will read as such.

 

- Dewback Rider Only

CRITICAL 2 (While converting offensive surges, change up to 2 (hit) results to (crit) results.)

 

This means that YOU, the one rolling with the card, can choose during the converting surge step, convert your WHITE dice surges to hits, then apply CRITICAL keyword. Thus allowing you to effectively having (crits) before moving onto the next part of the dice rules.

 

Debate.

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35 minutes ago, choassassin said:

Based on my extensive knowledge of utilizing photoshop and keen eyes. When you zoom in on a pixalated image the colors will blend into shades of grey if there was white in the center or like how the surge icon looks. You can clearly see the grey-ing around the critical icon in the same card. Next we can compare the hit icon that is black on the T-21 card with the hit icon on the unit card and they are almost indistinguishable from each other. With that being said the card will read as such.

 

- Dewback Rider Only

CRITICAL 2 (While converting offensive surges, change up to 2 (hit) results to (crit) results.)

 

This means that YOU, the one rolling with the card, can choose during the converting surge step, convert your WHITE dice surges to hits, then apply CRITICAL keyword. Thus allowing you to effectively having (crits) before moving onto the next part of the dice rules.

 

Debate.

Written that way it would allow two regular hits to be converted into crits during the surge conversion step. Which is overly powerful, as it combines impact, high velocity, and sharpshooter into one.

A more balanced reading would be to convert up to two surges to crits.

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17 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Written that way it would allow two regular hits to be converted into crits during the surge conversion step. Which is overly powerful, as it combines impact, high velocity, and sharpshooter into one.

A more balanced reading would be to convert up to two surges to crits.

Additionally, it's way simpler if you did want to convert hits, you just do Impact and also Sharpshooter/High Velocity. You don't need to write a whole new rule which needs like a page in the RRG. There are already in fact keywords to defeat Cover, Dodge tokens and Armor. They don't need to save word space by making a keyword that is just all those keywords. 

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17 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Additionally, it's way simpler if you did want to convert hits, you just do Impact and also Sharpshooter/High Velocity. You don't need to write a whole new rule which needs like a page in the RRG. There are already in fact keywords to defeat Cover, Dodge tokens and Armor. They don't need to save word space by making a keyword that is just all those keywords. 

Also, if you compare the symbols for the impact card that the droids have with the critical card that the phase 1 Troopers have; which appear to be at the same resolution; the crit symbol looks different from the one we know to be hit on an impact card. 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/3/28/attack-of-the-clones/

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@Derrault With this information, it does appear quite better that the SURGE icon under CRITICAL 1 is more likely that the very obvious HIT icon under IMPACT 2. Only time will tell at this point and it will be here sometime in June.

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3 hours ago, choassassin said:

Based on my extensive knowledge of utilizing photoshop and keen eyes. When you zoom in on a pixalated image the colors will blend into shades of grey if there was white in the center or like how the surge icon looks. You can clearly see the grey-ing around the critical icon in the same card. Next we can compare the hit icon that is black on the T-21 card with the hit icon on the unit card and they are almost indistinguishable from each other. With that being said the card will read as such.

 

- Dewback Rider Only

CRITICAL 2 (While converting offensive surges, change up to 2 (hit) results to (crit) results.)

 

This means that YOU, the one rolling with the card, can choose during the converting surge step, convert your WHITE dice surges to hits, then apply CRITICAL keyword. Thus allowing you to effectively having (crits) before moving onto the next part of the dice rules.

Well I would agree with you but then we would both be wrong

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mep said:

I agree with you on the game mechanic side. Keep in mind, FFG loves power creep to sell it's new toys.

To be fair, that describes about 99% of all companies in my experience that sell miniatures and rules (or trading cards). More "powerful" units are more likely to sell to current players, allowing the company to continue to make money off of people with game legal armies/decks.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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2 hours ago, choassassin said:

@Derrault With this information, it does appear quite better that the SURGE icon under CRITICAL 1 is more likely that the very obvious HIT icon under IMPACT 2. Only time will tell at this point and it will be here sometime in June.

I agree with you, The dewback looks like a hit, the clone trooper looks like a surge. These are preproduction samples, so it is possible both assessments are correct and Critical was changed from one to the other at some point.

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so until confirmed everthing we can do is speculate, but i think i surely can tell that the majority agrees that hit to crit will be somewhat broken and redundant to several other keywords.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

...

Didn't know that suppression does not give cover to creatures, but I still think the unit is good. As long as there is a large piece of terrain near the centre, it is very possible to keep them behind cover with their free pivot actions and unhindered.

3 of them is of course an extreme version that I just brought up to illuatrate their strenghts and that it does not make much sense to compare them to speeder bikes, because they have a completly different role within lists.

The examples you gave all assume that you just mindlessly charge into an enemy army without any consideration, isolating the dewbacks and not using line of sight blockers. You dont have to do that, but the fact that you have the option to charge early on dictates what the opponent can do with his vulnerable units. More often than not, it will be better just to move the dewbacks up to the centre in turn 1, use heavy cover for the dewbacks and block line of sight to Krennic and Vader. That is an extremly strong opening for a lot of missions, because you deny your opponent a lot of space. After turn 2or  3 you often dont need compel any more anyway.

I dont think that panic is an issue with endurance. With that upgrade, they clear 2 suppression tokens before their next rallystep. They will only loose actions if they are focused by enemy fire, and will almost never route.

While it is possible that they cannot engage in melee, I do not think that is very likely. That would would make them significantly weaker though. Their statistical damage output in melee is not that bad actually. In a one on one situation, you can  tie up an enemy unit, neutralize its damage output and evenually kill it while taking almost no damage in return. Or you flame one unit and tie up another one in melee. In the endgame, they can then tie up another unit in place. If they would be able to finish a unit with 2 attack actions, that would be too strong.

Edited by M.Mustermann

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3 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

I dont think that panic is an issue with endurance. With that upgrade, they clear 2 suppression tokens before their next rallystep. They will only loose actions if they are focused by enemy fire, and will almost never route.

Or in the mirror match when the other Empire player has bulked up on Suppressive weapons, which is getting fairly easy between Death Troopers, E-webs, and Shore Trooper mortars, not to mention Palpatine's "Give in to your anger," which the Dewback is a valid target given it is a Trooper. 

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I don't know that we'll fully understand the Dewback's impact until we see how it does on the table. My experience with all of the FFG minis games is that they contain some upgrades that look amazing and game changing in the preview articles, but turn out to be "meh" in practice. Or, vice versa, upgrades and key words that didn't seem that great end up being pretty spectacular.

In any case, there's a couple things going on for Dewbacks that folks haven't discussed yet:

  1. You aren't required to take a configuration. The shooting does look underwhelming, so why pay for it at all? Just skip it.
  2. The Dewback's melee attack has Critical2, so it should be able to shred armor and also deal with Luke and his 2+ dodge tokens he always seems to have.
  3. The Dewback's melee attack has suppressive, so unless you get monumentally unlucky with his 6 dice, you're causing 2 suppression per attack. That's pretty good
  4. The comms upgrade slot plus HQ uplink means that you can run him out in front, on a distant flank, or leave him behind to guard an objective and still count on him to get an order when he needs it. He's a pretty solid unit to run solo.
  5. The Dewback pairs nicely with the command cards "pinned down" and "Imperial Discipline"
  6. With a speed of 1, Spur, and a large base, it'll be the fastest thing going through difficult terrain, which we tend to have a lot of in our games.

Not that any of that proves it's going to be awesome, just a few things to consider before consigning him to the dustbin.

Of course, you could run trials now if you happen to have an unused large base hanging around. Maybe you'll find one glued to the bottom of your dusty AT-ST, for example.

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15 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

You aren't required to take a configuration. The shooting does look underwhelming, so why pay for it at all? Just skip it.

Correct, but taking a ranged weapon is decent defence against the first turn "Give in to your Anger." 

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4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Correct, but taking a ranged weapon is decent defence against the first turn "Give in to your Anger." 

Good point... question though: are "creature troopers" affected by things that affect "troopers"? If not, then that it wouldn't be a problem.

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1 minute ago, Elliphino said:

Good point... question though: are "creature troopers" affected by things that affect "troopers"? If not, then that it wouldn't be a problem.

Fair enough. Lots of questions that will most likely only be fulled answered when the RRG is updated. We do know that is the case with Emplacement Troopers, so it's possible Creature Troopers are similar.

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4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Fair enough. Lots of questions that will most likely only be fulled answered when the RRG is updated. We do know that is the case with Emplacement Troopers, so it's possible Creature Troopers are similar.

I hope that Creature Troopers can be affected by stuff that only says Troopers.

Being able to airdrop the lizard hippo behind enemy lines would be awesome.

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32 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

The Dewback's melee attack has suppressive, so unless you get monumentally unlucky with his 6 dice, you're causing 2 suppression per attack. That's pretty good

Well, it’s just 1 because melee attacks don’t deal suppression tokens. But otherwise, I agree this will be a strong unit. Armor 1 is going to help it for sure. It’s like persistent cover, but better because Sharpshooter can’t take it away and it would stack with any cover it can find.

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1 hour ago, Elliphino said:

Of course, you could run trials now if you happen to have an unused large base hanging around. Maybe you'll find one glued to the bottom of your dusty AT-ST, for example.

The AT-ST is on a Huge base. The Dewback is on the same large base used for the AT-RT and E-Web.

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https://podcast.notoriousscoundrels.com/e/state-of-the-legion-pt-1-alex-davy-luke-eddy-inyterview/?fbclid=IwAR0dS5LdYyckQXV69TSw-Bnq8lFi_ezjlCmez1B5Tp4Oihj3gll-I9okkZw

It's confirmed to be surge conversion for the Critical keyword, at the 52:30 minute mark, straight from the designer's mouth

The debate is over

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