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When a huge ship uses a command token to resolve Piett's effect, is it possible to spend a dial +token?  Piett triggers "when spending only a command token," and the ship in question behaves "as if it had spent a command dial," whereas a huge ship gains a command token "when resolving a command dial."

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Posted (edited)

 

"When Resolving a Command Dial" isn't...  actually a timing we already have.

Is it when *revealing* a Command Dial?  
 

Let's assume it is.  Since that makes simple easy rules sense.

Under That Assumption

Here's the thing with it.

You can only resolve a Command in 3 ways.

Dial.
Token.
Dial + Token.

But you're gaining a Token of the Dial in Question.


Piett allows you to turn a Token, into a Dial.  Even before we question weather the intent is to say "no, this is a Spent Dial and Nothing More" or "You've spent that Dial, now do you want to add a token to it?"
 

So if you already have a Token, why aren't you just resolving Dial + Token without Piett anyway?  You're only keeping the Token if you're Executor, and the net gain in both instances will be...  You end your Turn with a Token.

I mean:


I have an Engineering Dial and Piett.
I reveal it.  I now have an Engineering Dial and an Engineering Token.
I use Piett to Turn that Engineering Token into an Engineering Dial, and I have.....  An Engineering Dial I can turn into a Token.  

End Result:  I have an Engineering Dial Command, and I end up with a Token.

Contrast with:

I have an Engineering Dial, and someone else.
I reveal it.  I now have an Engineering Dial and an Engineering Token.
I spend that Engineering Dial. 

End Result:  I have an Engineering Dial Command, and I end up with a Token.


Contrast with:

I have an Engineering Dial, Piett, Executor, and an Engineering Token already.
I reveal my Dial.  I have an Engineering Dial, and Two Engineering Tokens.
I turn one of those Engineering Tokens into a Dial.  I have express permission from my Judge to also add a Token to That.    Given that I have already maxed out my Enginerring Command...  I turn that Dial into a Token.

End Result:  I have a Dial + Token Command, and I end up with a Token.


Contrast With:

I have an Engineering Dial, Someone Else, Executor, and an Engineering Token Already.
I reveal my Dial.  I have an Engineering Dial, and Two Engineering Tokens.
I Use my Engineering Dial, and an Engineering Token.

End Result:  I have a Dial + Token Command, and I end up with a Token Remaining.
...

See what I mean?

It'd be different if you could gain *any* token, but they stated you gain the Token *of that command*...

But with that.

Piett aint doin' Squat.

 

...

 

Furthermore:

If the Question is...  "I have Executor and Two Engineering Tokens, can I use Piett to turn one Token into a Dial, and then Resolve Dial+Token with my Second Token?"

No.

Piett only triggers when you spend, and I quote. "ONLY A COMMAND TOKEN".

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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6 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

So if you already have a Token, why aren't you just resolving Dial + Token without Piett anyway?  You're only keeping the Token if you're Executor, and the net gain in both instances will be...  You end your Turn with a Token.

It becomes relevant with a different token from your revealed dial.  Say you reveal a confire and have a banked nav token.  You resolve the confire dial (plus the confire token for being a huge ship.)  Piett also allows you to spend your nav token as though it were a dial.  The question is whether, due to timing, you may gain a token and resolve a dial + token for nav as well.

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Posted (edited)

No, because then you wouldn't be resolving *just a Token* in order to trigger Piett, you're trying to resolve a token(dial)+token, aren't you ?

 

 

I guess, with a laugh, I would thusly comment of "if it sounds like a Paradox to pull off, you probably can't"  :)

Edited by Drasnighta

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Posted (edited)

Hello!
Let me explain my point of view about why with the use of Piett ability you cannot gain a token on the SSD, using the huge ship ability.

On SSD "instructions" is written: "COMMAND DIALS: When a huge ship REVEALS its command dial, also assign the corresponding command token to that ship".
On Piett card is decleared: "When a friendly ship spends only a command token to resolve a command, you may exhaust this card. If you do, that ship RESOLVES that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead."
The resolving of a dial IS NOT the revealing of the dial.
On the Armada rules reference is declared: "COMMAND DIALS: When a ship is activated, its owner REVEALS that ship’s top command dial and places it next to the ship in the play area. It can be spent immediately to assign the corresponding command token to that ship, or it can be spent at the appropriate time to RESOLVE that command."
So, in the passages that are:
-Reveal the top command dial
-Resolve the command dial spending it

Piett ability jumps over the revealing step.



Now, my question is:
do the ability of Piett allows the player to use the pre-assigned dial and then to convert a token into a corresponding "dial effect" with the use of Piett?
I suppose the solution is in the right interpretation of the words "...only a command token to resolve a command...".
It should mean that the only command (over all the four possible) you can resolve is the one coming from the token
or (as I have interpreted) the second word "command" in the sentence means one of the four possible (conc. fire, repair, nav, squadron).
In this last case that I think is the right one, you could read that the Piett ability can be used if you spend only one token for a defined command type, id est you cannot use a token command corresponding the the same type of the revealed dial. 
 

Edited by Ataru79

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3 hours ago, Ataru79 said:

Now, my question is:
do the ability of Piett allows the player to use the pre-assigned dial and then to convert a token into a corresponding "dial effect" with the use of Piett?
I suppose the solution is in the right interpretation of the words "...only a command token to resolve a command...".
It should mean that the only command (over all the four possible) you can resolve is the one coming from the token
or (as I have interpreted) the second word "command" in the sentence means one of the four possible (conc. fire, repair, nav, squadron).
In this last case that I think is the right one, you could read that the Piett ability can be used if you spend only one token for a defined command type, id est you cannot use a token command corresponding the the same type of the revealed dial. 

I'm not sure I understand your question. You mean to use Piett to resolve 2 command dials of the same command?

If so, the answer is no. Apart from Piet's restriction that it can only be used when you resolve a command token of that command, as Drasnoghta commented there are only 3 ways of resolving commands and dial + dial is not one of them.

On 4/7/2019 at 11:03 PM, Drasnighta said:

You can only resolve a Command in 3 ways.

Dial.
Token.
Dial + Token.

 

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2 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. You mean to use Piett to resolve 2 command dials of the same command?

If so, the answer is no. Apart from Piet's restriction that it can only be used when you resolve a command token of that command, as Drasnoghta commented there are only 3 ways of resolving commands and dial + dial is not one of them.

 

The point is: what is a command?
I think, reading also the rule reference, that there are four commands you can use in armada.
If the meaning of "command" is so one of the four, Piett can be activated when you spend a token different from the revealed dial.

For example: the dial is Navigate. I reveal it and I declare to use it. Then I spend a concentrate fire token and I activate the power of Piett. I can since for that command (concentrate fire) I have spend only a command token, and not also a dial.

That's how I interprete the word "command".

BTW, how to reach to a single interpretation of the card?
Now, I see, there are a lot of players that consider the ability of Piett to be used as I said.

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There are 4 Commands:  Repair, Concentrate Fire, Navigate, Squadron.

 

There are 3 means to *resolving* the Commands.

 

Piett states on the card, when you resolve a command via a token, he instead counts it as a dial.

 

If you are resolving a command as a Dial+Token, you are fundamentally not resolving the command as a Token.

 

As there is no way to resolve a single command as a Dial+Dial, you cannot do it.  Furthermore you cannot resolve it as a Dial, and then a Separate Dial, because that would involve breaching the "You cannot resolve the same command more than once per turn." rule.

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1 hour ago, Ataru79 said:

The point is: what is a command?
I think, reading also the rule reference, that there are four commands you can use in armada.
If the meaning of "command" is so one of the four, Piett can be activated when you spend a token different from the revealed dial.

For example: the dial is Navigate. I reveal it and I declare to use it. Then I spend a concentrate fire token and I activate the power of Piett. I can since for that command (concentrate fire) I have spend only a command token, and not also a dial.

That's how I interprete the word "command".

BTW, how to reach to a single interpretation of the card?
Now, I see, there are a lot of players that consider the ability of Piett to be used as I said.

You mean for example, you reveal a squadron command dial and use it. Then you spend a navigate command token and use Piett to resolve it as if it was a navigate command dial, effectively resolving 2 command dials in the same activation?

If so then yes, you can totally do that, it's the whole idea of using Piett.

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Posted (edited)

 

49 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You mean for example, you reveal a squadron command dial and use it. Then you spend a navigate command token and use Piett to resolve it as if it was a navigate command dial, effectively resolving 2 command dials in the same activation?

If so then yes, you can totally do that, it's the whole idea of using Piett.

Yes, it is what I mean. In this way it is as you have resolved two command dial, since they are different commands.

Anyway, as Drasnighta wrote above, it is not the opinion of each one of us.

 

 

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

If you are resolving a command as a Dial+Token, you are fundamentally not resolving the command as a Token.

If the token is different from the dial, no: you are resolving the specific command spending only one token, even if, as in the example of Lemmiwinks86, you have first resolve a different command spending the dial.

 

 

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

 As there is no way to resolve a single command as a Dial+Dial, you cannot do it.  Furthermore you cannot resolve it as a Dial, and then a Separate Dial, because that would involve breaching the "You cannot resolve the same command more than once per turn." rule.

You're right. As in fact I said, Piett could work if the token you spend is a command different from the flipped dial at the start of the activation.
And since it is a token that works as a dial but it is not a dial, you are not resolving a dial+dial. 
You are resolving a command with a dial and then a different command with a token (so "only a command token to resolve a command")  that works as a dial since Piett.

Edited by Ataru79

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Posted (edited)

Explaining me better, with the same example of Lemmiwinks86. 
I activate my ship.
I flip my dial and it is a squadron command. I resolve it spending the dial and so I activate n squadrons.
Now, suppose I already had a nav token (banked). 
I spend the token for a nav command.

Do I have so spend only a command token to resolve the nav command?
Yes.
So I can exhaust the Piett card and use that command token as it was spent a corresponding type dial.

Moreover! If there was not the sentence that the card of Piett would be exhausted, I could apply its power also, for example, spending a conc. fire token (since the revealed dial is a squadron and so it's different) and with a repair one!
But it have to be exhausted.

At all it works as a mini-thrawn. Less powerfull (since it have to be exausted you can apply its power only to one ship per round) but a bit more "flexible".

...or this is how I have interpreted it comparing the card with the armada rule references! ;)

Edited by Ataru79

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1 hour ago, Ataru79 said:

Explaining me better, with the same example of Lemmiwinks86. 
I activate my ship.
I flip my dial and it is a squadron command. I resolve it spending the dial and so I activate n squadrons.
Now, suppose I already had a nav token (banked). 
I spend the token for a nav command.

Do I have so spend only a command token to resolve the nav command?
Yes.
So I can exhaust the Piett card and use that command token as it was spent a corresponding type dial.

Moreover! If there was not the sentence that the card of Piett would be exhausted, I could apply its power also, for example, spending a conc. fire token (since the revealed dial is a squadron and so it's different) and with a repair one!
But it have to be exhausted.

At all it works as a mini-thrawn. Less powerfull (since it have to be exausted you can apply its power only to one ship per round) but a bit more "flexible".

...or this is how I have interpreted it comparing the card with the armada rule references! ;)

Yes, all of that is right.

Piett is really good for the SSD, but outside of that I think its use over another commander will be for pretty niche cases. It has a cool effect, but the fact that it can only be used once per round (unless Interdictor) is not so good compared to the rest. At least in my opinion, without having played him even once.

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