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IA Continuity Project - Our Community-Focused Effort to Improve Skirmish

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On 4/9/2019 at 1:37 AM, brettpkelly said:

That was a mistake by us. Force throw should only be able to target small figures.

It wouldn't stop Yoda.  He'd be pushing Rancors and AT-STs all over the place.  Size doesn't matter to him.

But seriously, I am slowly coming around to this.  Our little group of 4 will try out these cost changes and fill out the survey and whatnot.  Still  don't really think the Hunter cards rule change is a good one but we'll try it too.  I'm excited to try the Diala card.  I was originally thinking more stuff like this and am not sure why she got priority over Fett when I would guess if there was a vote most people would say the fix we most need is Fett, not Diala.  Still, hers looks fun.  Maybe that is how you should go about season 2.  Ask the community.  Find out what everyone feels is actually needed.  Then work on fixes for that stuff.

Anyway.  We'll participate. Looking fwd to it.

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31 minutes ago, Mandelore of the Rings said:

It wouldn't stop Yoda.  He'd be pushing Rancors and AT-STs all over the place.  Size doesn't matter to him.

But seriously, I am slowly coming around to this.  Our little group of 4 will try out these cost changes and fill out the survey and whatnot.  Still  don't really think the Hunter cards rule change is a good one but we'll try it too.  I'm excited to try the Diala card.  I was originally thinking more stuff like this and am not sure why she got priority over Fett when I would guess if there was a vote most people would say the fix we most need is Fett, not Diala.  Still, hers looks fun.  Maybe that is how you should go about season 2.  Ask the community.  Find out what everyone feels is actually needed.  Then work on fixes for that stuff.

 Anyway.  We'll participate. Looking fwd to it.

There are a couple reasons we went with the diala fix first: It seems like everyone has an idea on what Fett should be like and we weren't able to come to a consensus by the time we wanted to announce. Other than that, he's also a hunter and Mercenaries have lots of hunter options already. We didnt want to risk pushing out broken hunter figure that would dominate the season. But that being said we really do want to put out a good fix for fett soon. Seasons aren't very long and he's definitely at the top of our priority list.

7 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

So, would this be the thread to post list ideas or should we do that in a new thread?

Feel free to post your ideas here or in a new thread. I know there are a couple community suggestion threads and the steering committee is keeping an eye on all of it.

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43 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:

There are a couple reasons we went with the diala fix first: It seems like everyone has an idea on what Fett should be like and we weren't able to come to a consensus by the time we wanted to announce. Other than that, he's also a hunter and Mercenaries have lots of hunter options already. We didnt want to risk pushing out broken hunter figure that would dominate the season. But that being said we really do want to put out a good fix for fett soon. Seasons aren't very long and he's definitely at the top of our priority list.

Take your time with Fett. He’s arguably the most important figure to the long term health of the community project, and everyone is going to have an opinion/not like the ideas that aren’t their own. You’ve really got to get him right, and that’s why I think FFG never attempted it. 

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1 hour ago, Fightwookies said:

Take your time with Fett. He’s arguably the most important figure to the long term health of the community project, and everyone is going to have an opinion/not like the ideas that aren’t their own. You’ve really got to get him right, and that’s why I think FFG never attempted it. 

Fett is still a reasonable figure as is, he really just needs a cost reduction. I know it isn't ideal, and many, including myself, have our personal views on him.  He'd probably fit right in as an 8 point figure. 

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I would run Fett all the time for 8!!  That would fit my "Mandalore" squad with Shyla and Sabine quite well.  I keep trying to think of something really cool and unique for old Boba though.  Some new fun ability like Thrawn's ability to look at all the cards in play and discard one or Hondo's ability to get points in the opponents deployment zone.  I don't mean the same as that, I just mean something new that mixes things up a bit.

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3 hours ago, cnemmick said:

If y'all haven't already, please take a moment to fill out the Community Feedback section of our Season 1 Announcement Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfEjRKFtkcGfPbVvaWxrbhIpYvaHUeSZrJjzVaIJgEFBygC5g/viewform?usp=sf_link

It'll only take about 5 minutes of your time. Thanks!

Filled it out, will post here once I've played a match or two with the new changes.

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Posted (edited)

Is this the right place to discuss these changes?  If not, I'll delete this and put in another thread.   For the moment let me start an initial discussion:

I've been doing some study of each character and I absolutely agree with increasing the cost of Sabine Wren to 8 points.  Now, based on that.  Can you explain how one justifies the reduction of Shayla, and more importantly Maul?  Focused Maul is a damage dealing machine, he is probably under-cost at 7.  Additionally, I also don't see the justification for lowering the e.Gamorrean Guard and not raising the e.Weequay Pirate.  I suppose I could see them swapped, where e. Gamorrean's are 7 and e.Weequays are 8.  They have about the same probability arc, but the Gamorreans are capable of one more damage in attack.  The Weequay's have range, but they'd be hard pressed to stay at 5 all the time.  And from what I'm given to understand, smuggler and Hunter cards beat Guardian and  Brawler cards. 

Edited by Rikalonius

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2 hours ago, Rikalonius said:

Is this the right place to discuss these changes?  If not, I'll delete this and put in another thread.   For the moment let me start an initial discussion:

I've been doing some study of each character and I absolutely agree with increasing the cost of Sabine Wren to 8 points.  Now, based on that.  Can you explain how one justifies the reduction of Shayla, and more importantly Maul?  Focused Maul is a damage dealing machine, he is probably under-cost at 7.  Additionally, I also don't see the justification for lowering the e.Gamorrean Guard and not raising the e.Weequay Pirate.  I suppose I could see them swapped, where e. Gamorrean's are 7 and e.Weequays are 8.  They have about the same probability arc, but the Gamorreans are capable of one more damage in attack.  The Weequay's have range, but they'd be hard pressed to stay at 5 all the time.  And from what I'm given to understand, smuggler and Hunter cards beat Guardian and  Brawler cards. 

I think part of the motivation for dropping Maul was to make him easier to include in Imperial force user lists.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

I think part of the motivation for dropping Maul was to make him easier to include in Imperial force user lists.

I don't think Maul wants to be part of Imperial Forces.  More to the point, if true, this is my problem with the entire endeavor.  The units are being manipulated to make specific lists viable, not to accurately address cost disparagements.  

Edited by Rikalonius

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Rikalonius said:

Is this the right place to discuss these changes?  If not, I'll delete this and put in another thread.   For the moment let me start an initial discussion:

I've been doing some study of each character and I absolutely agree with increasing the cost of Sabine Wren to 8 points.  Now, based on that.  Can you explain how one justifies the reduction of Shayla, and more importantly Maul?  Focused Maul is a damage dealing machine, he is probably under-cost at 7.  Additionally, I also don't see the justification for lowering the e.Gamorrean Guard and not raising the e.Weequay Pirate.  I suppose I could see them swapped, where e. Gamorrean's are 7 and e.Weequays are 8.  They have about the same probability arc, but the Gamorreans are capable of one more damage in attack.  The Weequay's have range, but they'd be hard pressed to stay at 5 all the time.  And from what I'm given to understand, smuggler and Hunter cards beat Guardian and  Brawler cards. 

The overall goal of the price changes (outside of Sabine's increase) was to take figures whose abilities and stats might be more appealing for army selection if their cost was reduced. In some cases like Kayn Somos & The Grand Inquisitor, the reduction was more than one point, and we're getting some positive (TGI) and negative (Kayn) feedback on those changes. But overall the figures we reduced in price were dropped by only a point.

We chose Maul, Shyla, Rancor and and eGamorreanGuards specifically to enable more Brawler melee list building options for Mercs. And outside of Shyla, we didn't want to tweak any of the Hunter/Smugglers due to our decision to try the Hunter card restriction & On the Lam change.

Without the Hunter or Smuggler trait, Maul doesn't match up very well with most Merc lists and Command card decks, and Maul really needs Force User or Brawler cards to maximize his impact. Stalk Prey is a good ability with a bad dice pool to trigger it: before factoring in defensive rolls, Maul when Focused only has a 49% chance of getting at least 2 surges, and he almost always needs to spend a surge on his Pierce 3. While his design might better fit his original cost at 7, that same design at that cost was too weak to play outside Brawler lists and not strong enough when in Brawler lists.

Shyla saw a lot of action immediately after Jabba's Realm was released, but she has since fallen out of favor. Players found back then that her damage output was disappointing for a figure with all her abilities and the Hunter trait. Other ranged Hunters do more damage than Shyla, and escape easily to cover -- all while not taking up 8 points in a list. Dropping Shyla down to 7 doesn't change her playstyle but it does decrease the VP impact when she is lost and opens up a 1-point slot to better pair her with other Brawlers. It also opens up running her with Motivation, which was popular when she was released but lost favor.

Concerning the Guardian trait: the Committee recognizes that it could use some attention to make it a bit more viable for play. In a future Season, we'll be opening up submissions for Guardian skirmish upgrades and Command cards and have the Community buff the trait.

Edited by cnemmick

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4 hours ago, Rikalonius said:

I don't think Maul wants to be part of Imperial Forces.  More to the point, if true, this is my problem with the entire endeavor.  The units are being manipulated to make specific lists viable, not to accurately address cost disparagements.  

Not to nitpick, but I believes it's specific archetypes.  Ideally, each faction should have several viable competitive types of lists you can make, with variation within those archetypes.  Merc brawlers need some love and I'm looking forward to testing that out.  You might be right about Maul, he's borderline 6/7 to me.  I like Maul, but I have trouble finding a list to put him in, but now I see two very interesting options.  (Scum brawler/sith Lord)

Also, I assume the hope is to have this tested and report back on any changes that need made.  For example, I'm concerned the Wookie Warriors drop was a bit dramatic and you now have the most preposterous HP/cost ratio in the game.  But I don't know because I haven't tested it yet.  (Soon....)

 

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The only argument I can understand for Kayn higher than 6 is weird death trooper shenanigans.

I think with strength in numbers or squad swarm you could pull off like 6 attacks in a row twice a game.

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44 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

The only argument I can understand for Kayn higher than 6 is weird death trooper shenanigans.

I think with strength in numbers or squad swarm you could pull off like 6 attacks in a row twice a game.

Maybe 7 PTS but he gains Advanced Com System?

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13 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

Also, I assume the hope is to have this tested and report back on any changes that need made.  For example, I'm concerned the Wookie Warriors drop was a bit dramatic and you now have the most preposterous HP/cost ratio in the game.  But I don't know because I haven't tested it yet.  (Soon....)

#MakeWookiesGreatAgain

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17 hours ago, Trevize84 said:

Maybe 7 PTS but he gains Advanced Com System?

Our group isn't the biggest in skirmish, but we did notice the problem wtih Kayn as well in skirmish.

Solution we implemented that seemed to work well was adjusting firing squad to "within 2 spaces".
- Big issue is in order to use Firing Squad (actual redeeming value) he'd have to travel in an artery clog of troopers.  And with all the splash damage effects floating around it'd basically incentivize you to position your figures poorly.
- As well, turn-order can wreck his chances
- 2 spaces (normal order range) seemed to make him gameplay effective.
- Pricing adjustment still required, but at least the abilities worked well.

Similar solution for Sorin also helped out a lot.

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18 hours ago, Trevize84 said:

Maybe 7 PTS but he gains Advanced Com System?

I actually really like this, but wouldn't mind changing his surges to +2dmg, Pierce 2 instead.  I feel like that's a standard expectation for me of a 7 cost deployment.  You could still add advanced coms if you wanted as an upgrade.  

Be curious to see if 6 unanswered attacks twice a game is as ridiculous as I think it will be.  Imagine if you could pull that off back to back?  (End of one round, start of the next round).

That's a table flipping waiting to happen.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

I actually really like this, but wouldn't mind changing his surges to +2dmg, Pierce 2 instead.  I feel like that's a standard expectation for me of a 7 cost deployment.  You could still add advanced coms if you wanted as an upgrade.  

Be curious to see if 6 unanswered attacks twice a game is as ridiculous as I think it will be.  Imagine if you could pull that off back to back?  (End of one round, start of the next round).

That's a table flipping waiting to happen.

This is the unfortunate reality of the power creep that has been going on for a couple of expansions. 

Edited by Rikalonius

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4 hours ago, DerBaer said:

May I ask: That power creep you all keep talking about, which deployment cards are subject to that, in your opinion?

Anything from Jabba's Realm and later, with the earlier exception of Greedo.

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11 hours ago, DerBaer said:

May I ask: That power creep you all keep talking about, which deployment cards are subject to that, in your opinion?

"...you all keep talking about..."?  Are...are you actually going to try to dispute that there has been power creep...?  *boggle*

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