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Dear Separatists: I <3 U

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

So...? How often you guys running into republic arcs and torrents :P?

This meta has a lot of beef early on. Sinker swarms are showing up in a lot of places. I think we legitimately may see a lot of those I2-type ships.

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

yeah, that was my thinking

funnily enough, both prequel factions give you a lot of reason to potentially upgrade to i3 (though idk if that upgrade is worth it only the lowly vulture, any torpedo bearing Hyena may well need it)

Rise of the 5 Omega Squadron Expert lists :D

...my other faction is FO, so I'm really looking forward to hopefully a solid Wave 6 announcement for both factions.

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Posted (edited)

Got this silliness to try

(198)

Baktoid Prototype — Hyena-Class Droid Bomber 28
Diamond-Boron Missiles 6
Landing Struts 1
Ship Total: 35
Half Points: 18 Threshold: 3
   
Separatist Bomber — Hyena-Class Droid Bomber 29
Proton Torpedoes 13
Landing Struts 1
Ship Total: 43
Half Points: 22 Threshold: 3
   
Separatist Bomber — Hyena-Class Droid Bomber 29
Proton Torpedoes 13
Landing Struts 1
Ship Total: 43
Half Points: 22 Threshold: 3
   
0-66 — Sith Infiltrator 52
Count Dooku 10
DRK-1 Probe Droids 5
Kraken 10
Ship Total: 77
Half Points: 39 Threshold: 5

Never used scimitar, however, so dunno what I'm giving up by not having it

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

You have to embrace the Seperatist mindset

Everything is expendible!

Except for you (or so you think)

 

EDIT: by the way, I think we should revisit the subject of i 1 or 3 especially with our lovely little 'yenas

So the boron baktoid is in a good spot because it's so cheap, but what about its relative equivalents in the torpedo bearing bombers?

Boron Baktoid (35 w/struts)

Tub plasma      (36 w/struts) 

Sep Plasma      (39 w/struts)

Tub Protons     (40 w/struts)

Sep Proton       (43 w/struts)

 

and ofc, 404 can be taken over a Sep for one measly point. 

So...? How often you guys running into republic arcs and torrents :P?

 

The difference between 1 and 3 is weird because it's either super useful or meaningless. The question isn't, "How much I2 are you seeing" so much, "How much do you care about the I2 your seeing?". 2pts per Vulture and 3pts per Hyena is rough is you're talking 6+ ships.

 

A full swarm just hits so hard that I don't care about sinker and as soon as the initial joust ends moving before the enemy swarm and having struts is pretty debilitating, so I'm firmly in the "more toys" camp for full swarm.

 

For mini swarm, might be worth it depending on your game plan and the rest of the squad.

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404 with APTs (36 pts) is an extremely effective trailer (not flanker - trailer). I thought it was mostly a joke pilot but after some table time, it's actually really consistent at doing at least one of three things - big damage, area denial, or distraction - and for 36 points it's not a big deal which it ends up being. 

I'm extremely dubious of the 3-ship builds, but I think 404 complements a swarm well.

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2 minutes ago, svelok said:

404 with APTs (36 pts) is an extremely effective trailer (not flanker - trailer). I thought it was mostly a joke pilot but after some table time, it's actually really consistent at doing at least one of three things - big damage, area denial, or distraction - and for 36 points it's not a big deal which it ends up being. 

I'm extremely dubious of the 3-ship builds, but I think 404 complements a swarm well.

I can see it. 6 red with hit to crit conversion and likely double mod (pending the rest of the list's population) at range 1 with the ability to reload the APT should draw allot of fire away from the rest of the list. 

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

404 with APTs (36 pts) is an extremely effective trailer (not flanker - trailer).

YES.

It's really nice to jump into range 1 when everyone is in a furball and fairly predictable. Its a feels bad for the opponent for sure.

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Re: I1 vs I3 it should be remembered that I3 isn’t just to beat the I2s; it also keeps you from getting initiative-killed by other I3s, which can be significant. Almost all talent generics are I3+, so things like crack swarms, inquisitors, omegas, and dedicated torrents have a definite presence as well.

 I love the idea of even I3 being relevant though. Condensing to 6 was definitely the right call.

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I played this tonight against a 5 inquisitor list. 

Medley

(44) General Grievous [Belbullab-22 Starfighter]
(4) Impervium Plating
(1) Crack Shot
(6) Soulless One
Points: 55

(30) DBS-404 [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 42

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 38

(26) Techno Union Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 40

(23) DFS-311 [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
Points: 24

Total points: 199

it was really interesting on the approach, although my APT whiffed, and a proton, DBM, grievous with ability and a calc, and a dfs primary did 3 damage (including the DBM roll hitting.) I put this together to test out the different TUBs. This is a list that really wants to get the probes out well and I did not do that effectively. Lessons learned. 

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6 hours ago, dsul413 said:

YES.

It's really nice to jump into range 1 when everyone is in a furball and fairly predictable. Its a feels bad for the opponent for sure.

 

9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I can see it. 6 red with hit to crit conversion and likely double mod (pending the rest of the list's population) at range 1 with the ability to reload the APT should draw allot of fire away from the rest of the list. 

It's also a form of control. People fly differently to avoid landing in it, especially if they're moving before 404. And then, obviously, yeah, throw angry amounts of dice at it.

So sometimes 404 just dies without doing anything. But 36 points is cheap enough that can be fine so long as you capitalize on it even a little.

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Posted (edited)

Context first.  So I'm playing around in YSAB with a Grievous + Swarm sort of archetype.

  • Grievous (Daredevil, Soulless One) 53 - I've heard enough good things about Daredevil on a few ships that I kind of want to just play it a few times on a few ships, to get a feel for it geometrically.
  • Techno Union Bomber (DRK-1 Probes, Ion Missiles) 35 - Mandatory Probe Carrier.  Ions mostly for cheapness.
  • Baktoid Prototype (Diamond Boron Missiles) 34
  • Trade Federation Drone (Ion Missiles) 23 - Too much Init 1 in this list to seriously consider a swap to Precise Hunter, particularly with Probes for long-range locks.  I do kinda like Precise Hunters, but they're not right for this list.
  • Trade Federation Drone (Ion Missiles) 23
  • [TUB or TFD] (Ion Missiles) 23 or 30 - This is the choice.  Would it be better to go {1} 3x Hyena, 2x Vulture, 2 wiggle points; or {2} 2x Hyena, 3x Vulture + 9 wiggle points.  Everyone could get Ion with Struts or ESC without Struts, plus Impervium on Grievous, if I go with 3 Vultures.  Feels like a lot of added flexibility, but the cost is 2 HP on one of the Rogers.

I guess it's an interesting question, and one probably widely applicable to Separatist list building.

Is it worth switching one Hyena to a Vulture in order to get more toys?

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)

I'm probably trying this tonight:

DBS-404 (30)    
    Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)    
    DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)    
    
Ship total: 41  Half Points: 21  Threshold: 3    
    
General Grievous (44)    
    TA-175 (5)    
    Impervium Plating (4)    
    Soulless One (6)    
    
Ship total: 59  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 4    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 25  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 25  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 25  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Trade Federation Drone (19)    
    Energy-Shell Charges (5)    
    Grappling Struts (1)    
    
Ship total: 25  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z326X134WW221WWY305XW239W207W229Y279X209W208WY279X209W208WY279X209W208WY279X209W208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

Something similar to your list, with less TUB action. I really like the Baktoid with DBM, so that'd be a worthwhile sub in, but I don't have the points since I'm running ESCs instead of ion missiles unless I lose Impervium and TA-175.

Edited by dsul413

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

 

  • Grievous (Daredevil, Soulless One) 53 - I've heard enough good things about Daredevil on a few ships that I kind of want to just play it a few times on a few ships, to get a feel for it geometrically.

I’m a firm believer that Daredevil is a tragically undervalued card.  I’ve seen some players use it to good effect, but most seem to just glaze right over it.  My favorite use for Daredevil has been on Dalan Oberos (Starviper), to pull a complete lateral shift by Advanced Sensoring a Daredevil Boost, blue 3-straight to clear stress, and then rotate 90-degrees to face back the original direction.  I think my opponent’s brain melted out of his ears when he saw that...

 

I’m for sure going to try it on Greivous.

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Ugh still can't commit myself to trying 0-66 over Maul. I mean...it's MAUL!

1) Maulraders

(67) Darth Maul [Sith Infiltrator]
(3) General Grievous
(9) Hate
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(4) Scimitar
Points: 88

(30) DBS-404 [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 36

(26) Techno Union Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 40

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
Points: 35

Total points: 199

 

Anyone have any insight as to whether or not Scimitar is worth a ****? 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Ugh still can't commit myself to trying 0-66 over Maul. I mean...it's MAUL!

1) Maulraders

(67) Darth Maul [Sith Infiltrator]
(3) General Grievous
(9) Hate
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(4) Scimitar
Points: 88

(30) DBS-404 [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 36

(26) Techno Union Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 40

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
Points: 35

Total points: 199

 

Anyone have any insight as to whether or not Scimitar is worth a ****? 

Its super not worth the points on Maul. You're better off taking something else. Upgrade 404 to plasmas to give you 3+ dice at all ranges?

I've just never been in a situation where I want to cloak or jam with Maul. Probes make the jam more appealing while he's out and about, but it's still a feels bad. I just go target lock whoever I want to hate life the most and use my ample force to double modify.

Edited by dsul413

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Posted (edited)

PSA for players using probe droids.

I've seen this mistake happen twice now at least. For probe droids, if a ship overlaps the probe droid - the final position of the ship is on the droid - then it rolls for the damage. If it does not roll the focus result, and that ship boosts, it would have to again have a final position on top of the droid to roll again.

Players have been rolling again on the boost because the template is over the droid token, sort of how we work obstacles, and that is not accurate.

I'm sure most people here aren't doing that, but I've seen it done on streams/vassal.

 

Edit: I have seen this done differently, and I'm pretty sure I know the answer. Since I didn't use struts until this points update...

If my struts are open on an asteroid or debris, I can barrel roll across the asteroid or debris because I ignore obstacles while moving through (read as ignoring the effects of obstacles, failing in this case being an effect). Does that check?

Edited by dsul413

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terminology change to 2nd edition is a tiny bit confusing

i.e, if your movement template overlaps a thing it's called "moving through"

if the ship physically overlaps, it's called ..."overlap"

 

So yeah, probes only pop if your enemy lands on them (and you roll bad) and same with struts on obstacles, you gotta land on them

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

terminology change to 2nd edition is a tiny bit confusing

i.e, if your movement template overlaps a thing it's called "moving through"

if the ship physically overlaps, it's called ..."overlap"

 

So yeah, probes only pop if your enemy lands on them (and you roll bad) and same with struts on obstacles, you gotta land on them

Agreed on all fronts. Once struts are open, I've had people argue that barrel roll fails because the rules reference says that they fail when they move through an obstacle, so if my template overlaps the rock it fails - but struts specifically state that they ignore obstacles when open as they move through, so that should trump the rules reference, even if its from an action.

Edited by dsul413

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58 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

PSA for players using probe droids.

I've seen this mistake happen twice now at least. For probe droids, if a ship overlaps the probe droid - the final position of the ship is on the droid - then it rolls for the damage. If it does not roll the focus result, and that ship boosts, it would have to again have a final position on top of the droid to roll again.

Players have been rolling again on the boost because the template is over the droid token, sort of how we work obstacles, and that is not accurate.

I'm sure most people here aren't doing that, but I've seen it done on streams/vassal.

 

Edit: I have seen this done differently, and I'm pretty sure I know the answer. Since I didn't use struts until this points update...

If my struts are open on an asteroid or debris, I can barrel roll across the asteroid or debris because I ignore obstacles while moving through (read as ignoring the effects of obstacles, failing in this case being an effect). Does that check?

 

I have never seen anyone care enough to try to run over Probe Droids, but I guess it's good to know.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

If my struts are open on an asteroid or debris, I can barrel roll across the asteroid or debris because I ignore obstacles while moving through (read as ignoring the effects of obstacles, failing in this case being an effect). Does that check?

Yes. The ability granted by open struts over rules the Rules Reference. Point them to the Golden Rules (for card abilities take precedence) and the Move sections of the Rules Reference next time this comes up.

Edited by Hiemfire

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Our droids will begin to doubt our love if we let this thread slip to page 2 too often. Here's something to punch opponents in the face with.

404 TUB (200/200) ================

Hyena Bomber: DBS-404 (30 + 6) + Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Hyena Bomber: Techno Union Bomber (26 + 14) + Plasma Torpedoes (9) + DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)

Vulture Fighter: DFS-311 (23 + 5) + Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19 + 5) + Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19 + 5) + Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19 + 5) + Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19 + 5) + Energy-Shell Charges (5)

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On 7/25/2019 at 6:35 PM, ficklegreendice said:

funnily enough, both prequel factions give you a lot of reason to potentially upgrade to i3 (though idk if that upgrade is worth it only the lowly vulture, any torpedo bearing Hyena may well need it)

I ALWAYS go I3 if I can take it.  I have fought off against a lot of low Init ships.  Not every enemy, but most have some low I ships.  Maybe I'm not facing off vs. tournament lists all the time, but I see a lot of low Init ships, especially Torrents.   I have found it makes a huge difference in my games.

On 7/25/2019 at 7:19 PM, MasterShake2 said:

 

The difference between 1 and 3 is weird because it's either super useful or meaningless. The question isn't, "How much I2 are you seeing" so much, "How much do you care about the I2 your seeing?". 2pts per Vulture and 3pts per Hyena is rough is you're talking 6+ ships.

...

For mini swarm, might be worth it depending on your game plan and the rest of the squad.

Agreed on the I3 part.  Generic Jedi are I3, and it helps vs. them.

Also, I have a solid list that has 6 Separatist Vultures with ESC, a naked Trade to act as blocker or Calc bank, and Butterbot w/ Grapplers.  The I3 is crucial vs. a lot of lists.

On 7/26/2019 at 1:11 AM, ClassicalMoser said:

 I love the idea of even I3 being relevant though. Condensing to 6 was definitely the right call.

They have been essential in my games!  I don't often play against meta and my opponents often go with more ships is better.  I have seen way too many I1 guys get popped to want to do more than a single I1 blocker.

I have recently played vs a lot of Republic lists and most have some cheap Torrents.   I3 is essential. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I have recently played vs a lot of Republic lists and most have some cheap Torrents.   I3 is essential.

Yeah, the main factors to me in the relevance of I3 are:

A) I-killing, locking, or dodging dirt cheap Torrents and ARCs (republic beef)

B) I-killing, locking, or dodging almost all Rebel Generics, especially BUXY (rebel beef)

C) Not getting Initiative-killed by any swarms; you can always shoot back except vs aces

That said, I4 is probably still my favorite spot. Kulbee and Jake are among my favorite pilots right now and I expect at least Kullbee will be a sort of sleeper hit this wave. We'll see I guess.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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