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The Last Stone Played - HERE BE SPOILERS!

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48 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Trying to pass Toturi off as an assassin and usurper is a dumb plan. No one even remotely intelligent would buy that.

I don't disagree.

 

But I think that WILL be the plan, because Kachiko misread the situation, and now every plan made by her side of things is going to be a hasty improvisation reacting to the mess she's made.

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3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Scorpion alters the edict to read that Toturi was to be regent and gets it confirmed as a fake while present I g their own fake edict that passes as real which claims that Shoju will be regent to Sotorii.

Hasn't Sotorii passed his gempuku? If so, he is a legal adult, and doesn't need a regent.

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9 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

He hasnt. Hsi duel is with wooden swords because of that

 

But the duel was six months ago. And I seem to recall something about an incident at Sotorii's gempuku, though I have no idea where that got mentioned.

(You can tell which corner of the story I'm not responsible for writing . . .)

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11 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

 

But the duel was six months ago. And I seem to recall something about an incident at Sotorii's gempuku, though I have no idea where that got mentioned.

(You can tell which corner of the story I'm not responsible for writing . . .)

You're right, in fact that mention happens in the very story this thread is about. But it was also confirmed as far back as "Wildcats and Dragon Teeth" where it specifically calls out that he's undergone his gempuku.

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16 hours ago, Manchu said:

Trying to pass Toturi off as an assassin and usurper is a dumb plan. No one even remotely intelligent would buy that.

Because of how Rokugan works isn't it possible for no one to believe it but still have to play along or risk losing face?

You can't exactly call the Imperial Advisor a liar in public, especially if she is a member of the most politically influential Clan.

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19 minutes ago, Doji Tori said:

Because of how Rokugan works isn't it possible for no one to believe it but still have to play along or risk losing face?

You can't exactly call the Imperial Advisor a liar in public, especially if she is a member of the most politically influential Clan.

Yes but by the same token calling out the Emerald Champion is a huge thing.  The only one who can really call him out without consequence is the Emperor.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Kinzen said:

 

But the duel was six months ago. And I seem to recall something about an incident at Sotorii's gempuku, though I have no idea where that got mentioned.

(You can tell which corner of the story I'm not responsible for writing . . .)

It's in The Last Stone Played, for that matter, but I'm sure it was mentioned before that as well. Something happened - shouting at some servants or peasants or something. 

Hard to tell exactly what, but if there was a Gempukku, then no, Sotorii is Emperor without needing a regency. 

Obviously he will still need an advisor, though. To provide him with close....personal...support. 

 

 

One minor question - in the old fiction, Sotorii survives the coup (in part) because the Phoenix transform 'a childhood playmate' into a body double, and allow Shoju to catch and kill 'the prince'. 

Was the poor unfortunate sod ever identified? I've been looking through an old copy of The Scorpion's Sting and can't see a name anywhere.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

Yes but by the same token calling out the Emerald Champion is a huge thing.  The only one who can really call him out without consequence is the Emperor.

Plus Miya Satoshi and Bayushi Kachiko are trying to avoid a scandal. I mean, Kachiko's trying to lamb the opportunity for all it's worth at the same time, but she does seem to genuinely be trying to avoid a scandal too. 

Which means they want an explanation which people will genuinely believe, not just accept for political reasons - or better yet for public perception to be that absolutely nothing happened aside from age catching up with an old man, and there's nothing to explain....

 

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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23 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

But the idea that he wouldn't find it suspicious that a high ranking Scorpion tried to kill him the same night the Emperor suddenly died is ridiculous. 

It isn't that ridiculous if said high-ranking Scorpion is also his former rival from the Emerald Championship final. Especially if the death of the Emperor doesn't reach Toturi in time (Kachiko might wait a day or two with making it public), he might have come to the fairly reasonable initial conclusion that Aramoro was in for personal reasons, and the timing was merely coincidental. It would make zero sense to really connect Aramoro and the Emperor at first, because he Emperor dying without the official edict would shoot Shoju right in the feet and Aramoro is technically Shoju's man, so Aramoro killing Toturi (the single person who can prevent that very painful shot for Shoju) over it makes zero sense whatsoever from Toturi's viewpoint. 

21 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Everyone will get so caught up in what appears to be a power grab by Toturi that the investigation into Jodan's death is not given the attention it deserves. 

Matsu Tsuko's reaction would be priceless. The guy who was afraid to take Toshi Ranbo is now moving against the throne. She would feel as if she had passed to another dimension :lol:.

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56 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It isn't that ridiculous if said high-ranking Scorpion is also his former rival from the Emerald Championship final. Especially if the death of the Emperor doesn't reach Toturi in time (Kachiko might wait a day or two with making it public)

 

I'm not sure why you're so energetically pursuing this, but: for this scenario to make sense, Toturi -- the Emerald Champion -- needs to go for a day or two without hearing that the Emperor is dead, long live the Emperor, and then when he finds out at last, he needs to believe Jodan's passing happened recently rather than days ago, and therefore is completely unrelated to his own near-death experience.

This is profoundly implausible.

It's implausible because it means funerary preparations need to be postponed, secretly, for days. It's implausible because it means the Empire has no ruler, secretly, for days. It's implausible because the crowd of people involved in caring for the Emperor -- bringing him his meals, bathing him, clothing him, etc -- all need to somehow not notice the guy they serve is missing, or notice but stay quiet about it. Kachiko can't kill them all, especially if she wants it to look like there's nothing suspicious to see here, nope, just an old man passing and his eldest son inheriting as expected.

Will Toturi know something's happened before Aramoro catches up with him? Very likely not. But the plausible scenario is this: Aramoro tries to kill Toturi and fails, and then shortly thereafter Toturi finds out the Emperor is dead. At that point either the edict becomes public and people might accept that Jodan died naturally but Daisetsu takes the throne with Shoju as regent, or the edict is ~mysteriously missing~ and also the Emperor died and coincidentally on that same night somebody tried to murder Toturi, the man who wrote the edict on Jodan's behalf.

Toturi might not know why all of that happened. But he's not likely to write it off as total coincidence, regardless of his personal history with Aramoro. And, as before: whether he figures out precisely why Aramoro was trying to murder him or not, he's still highly likely to oppose Sotorii, because he knows about the edict. He may not instantly go ronin -- in fact, that would be a pretty useless first move, the Emerald Champion rage-quitting and instantly making himself a person nobody needs to listen to -- but he will take action, with or without Aramoro's assassination attempt to give him extra reason.

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16 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

It's implausible because the crowd of people involved in caring for the Emperor -- bringing him his meals, bathing him, clothing him, etc -- all need to somehow not notice the guy they serve is missing, or notice but stay quiet about it.

They actually don't have to. The Emperor is supposedly leaving for a monastery. He is about to disappear, so when he does... what gives? People might only catch up when he does not arrive to the monastery when he should, months after his death. In the meantime, everyone can enjoy their succession crisis or just roll with the chaos. How can Toturi know that Jodan is not on his way to the monastery? How can anyone know (other than the ones who already know)? Sotorii can spill it of course, that's why I'm not giving it more time than a few days. 

I would indeed agree that the delaying the Emperor's official death is highly implausible, but Kunsho did not incinerate Sotorii on the spot either when he tried to strike down his very own father with it, so I say if that's what the plot demands then Jodan will stay alive for months after his death because Kachiko Magical Powers or something. 

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12 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

They actually don't have to. The Emperor is supposedly leaving for a monastery. He is about to disappear, so when he does... what gives? People might only catch up when he does not arrive to the monastery when he should, months after his death. In the meantime, everyone can enjoy their succession crisis or just roll with the chaos. How can Toturi know that Jodan is not on his way to the monastery? How can anyone know (other than the ones who already know)? Sotorii can spill it of course, that's why I'm not giving it more time than a few days. 

I would indeed agree that the delaying the Emperor's official death is highly implausible, but Kunsho did not incinerate Sotorii on the spot either when he tried to strike down his very own father with it, so I say if that's what the plot demands then Jodan will stay alive for months after his death because Kachiko Magical Powers or something. 

No one knows he's retiring yet though so there is no reason to expect he's disappeared.

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6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

They actually don't have to. The Emperor is supposedly leaving for a monastery. He is about to disappear, so when he does... what gives? People might only catch up when he does not arrive to the monastery when he should, months after his death.

I sincerely doubt the Emperor could just disappear to a thus far unnamed monastery for months without people noticing. Assuming that the Miya and Seppun don't announce his death within hours of finding him dead, you would still need to convince the Imperial Court that the Emperor has just gone off on a little trip, without telling anyone, without leaving anyone in charge in his absence, without informing any of his most important retainers before he leaves, with no Seppun to guard him - actually, that alone would probably raise every warning alarm in the Court: the Emperor is out on the roads, alone, unguarded, and with not even the Seppun knowing where he's gone. There'd be a manhunt to find him for his own safety before you could say Hidden Guard.

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14 minutes ago, Mangod said:

I sincerely doubt the Emperor could just disappear to a thus far unnamed monastery for months without people noticing. Assuming that the Miya and Seppun don't announce his death within hours of finding him dead, you would still need to convince the Imperial Court that the Emperor has just gone off on a little trip, without telling anyone, without leaving anyone in charge in his absence, without informing any of his most important retainers before he leaves, with no Seppun to guard him - actually, that alone would probably raise every warning alarm in the Court: the Emperor is out on the roads, alone, unguarded, and with not even the Seppun knowing where he's gone. There'd be a manhunt to find him for his own safety before you could say Hidden Guard.

This x1000. The Emperor cannot simply up and vanish -- not for a few months, not for a few days; not even for a few hours -- without setting off a spectacular panic in the Imperial Palace. Anything other than immediately moving forward with proper rites etc. would be infinitely more suspicious than "oh, what a shame; I guess his bad health overcame him at last."

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12 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

One minor question - in the old fiction, Sotorii survives the coup (in part) because the Phoenix transform 'a childhood playmate' into a body double, and allow Shoju to catch and kill 'the prince'. 

Was the poor unfortunate sod ever identified? I've been looking through an old copy of The Scorpion's Sting and can't see a name anywhere.

Not that I remember. I would have to check Otosan Uchi or the Scorpion novel but I don't think they are identified in any.

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6 hours ago, Mangod said:

Assuming that the Miya and Seppun don't announce his death within hours of finding him dead

Considering how the Miya daimyo just walked into the dead body and passed it off with a "Yeah, whatever, the Scorpion are at it again." and how you can shank the Emperor in the Hantei shrine (with the ancestral sword of the Hantei, no less!) and call in a crew to clean up the place without the Seppun kicking the door onto you within a minute, I wouldn't exactly trust these two to care/matter that much. 

6 hours ago, Mangod said:

you would still need to convince the Imperial Court that the Emperor has just gone off on a little trip, without telling anyone, without leaving anyone in charge in his absence, without informing any of his most important retainers before he leaves, with no Seppun to guard him 

You just have to tell them that this was what the Emperor wanted. Done. Nobody is going to question anything because nobody is questioning the Emperor. If he wants to leave for a trip completely alone and leaving everything behind on a moment's notice then good for him. The Heavens' Will is often inscrutable and all that.

 

But again, I don't think this matters that much. I think postponing the Emperor's official death is plausible, but seeing how the Inheritance arc is shaping up, I don't think that such thing is in the writers' head. 

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On 4/19/2019 at 3:46 AM, AtoMaki said:

I think postponing the Emperor's official death is plausible, but seeing how the Inheritance arc is shaping up, I don't think that such thing is in the writers' head. 

I mean, given that one of the writers has already told you directly that postponing the official death is "profoundly implausible," I would say that you're right.

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It's a worldbuilding issue, among other things. It cheapens the idea that the Son of Heaven is a hugely important and revered figure in Rokugan if a single person -- even the Imperial Adviser -- can claim that oh yeah, he decided he was going to wander off on his own (somehow getting past all the guards on the palace without them noticing), and no, he didn't take any guards or make any arrangements for how things should run in his absence . . . and people just swallow that without question. It cheapens the Seppun and all the imperial guards, treating their duty as completely irrelevant and discarded at the drop of a hat. It also makes everybody who accepts that story without a shred of supporting evidence look phenomenally gullible, because this isn't about questioning the Emperor, it's about questioning somebody who claims to be speaking for the Emperor, while saying things that fly in the face of all logic and tradition. Even the most upstanding Lion would have trouble getting that to fly; coming from Kachiko, it would stink to high heaven.

This may be a fictional world, but if it undercuts its own principles like that, it won't be telling a very good story.

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6 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

Emperor Toturi III just wandered off on his own without telling anyone and wound up in the Shadowlands no less! :P

I know that doesn't matter anymore of course but this is a fictional world after all.

That story arc made as much sense as a bag of bricks and the pay-off was a steaming pile of horse manure. I mean it was probably better than Hidden Emperor, but that's a low bar to clear...

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On 4/21/2019 at 10:38 AM, AtoMaki said:

To be acutely honest here, after this very fiction, they already feel rather disappointing.

It's hinted that had it been anyone other than another Hantei  trying it, the place would have been swarming with Hidden Guard immediately.  That still seems a foolish exception from the alarm system, but we can assume that (like Hantei Jodan) the Hidden Guard haven't seen Gladiator

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4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's hinted that had it been anyone other than another Hantei  trying it, the place would have been swarming with Hidden Guard immediately.  That still seems a foolish exception from the alarm system, but we can assume that (like Hantei Jodan) the Hidden Guard haven't seen Gladiator

I think the idea behind the exception that that anyone who knew about it would not be able to voice concern over the fact that the alarm system would not trigger on a Hantei killing another Hantei.

It would cause a massive loss of face since you would be implying that the Sons Of Heaven are imperfect beings.

In a world where your Emperor is considered a Divine Being, and in which proof of this has reasonably manifested in the word, implying such a thing would be immediate grounds for senpaku. 

 

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In the old Otosan Uchi box set, it talked a bit about the wards. One of the things was that they were triggered by non-Hantei blood (there was an advantage that meant you were closely enough related to the Emperor that you could pass through them).  I don't think it's a deliberate flaw so much as a factor of the way they're made.  Just like metal detectors don't pick up ceramic knives, it's not because they were designed to allow ceramic knives through, just that a metal detector can't detect ceramic!

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