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Mandelore of the Rings

Suggestions/proposals for Community voted Spectre Cell Fix

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Trevize84 said:

You need the +1 damage on SC otherwise the list is rubbish

@Bitterman I consider black die opponent in my analysis. Also there're 2 thresholds that are important in my opinion 5 HP (standard support) and 7 HP (glass cannons). Let's see what that +1 damage means to SC figures:

- Kannan can one-shot 90% rather than 59% of cases a 5HP figure. This means with Deathblow or Force Surge you can reliably kill a 7HP figure.

- Ezra can one-shot 81% rather than 47% of cases a 5HP figure. If you consider ability to turn your die you can gain 1-2 more damage to one-shot 6 or 7 HP figures. Killing a eWeequay in one-shot is a guarantee, with Pummel you're likely going to get rid of the entire group.

- Zeb can one-shot 41% rather than 14% of cases (for melee attack it's 49% vs 25%) a 5HP figure. Using both attacks he can reliably (~90%) deal 7+ damage.

- Sabine can one-shot 68% rather than 26% of cases a 5HP figure. If you also throw the bomb after the attack you will kill a healthy 7HP figure ~60% of the times (without SC chance would have been ~12%).

- Hera can one-shot 37% rather than 11% of cases a 5HP figure. However if you look at 4HP you have 70% vs 37%. This means Hera can still one-shot reliably most of the supports, maybe you need to help her with CC if you want to go for the kill.

- Chopper can't one-shot reliably 5HP figures. He can often one-shot 4HP figures (62% with SC instead of 27%). This means Ram+Attack can deal 5HP reliably.

I believe the +1 damage is what makes SC powerful, in a more subtle way than the SiN+SC combo. I feel the block is what we should give up to balance the list although I feel it may be a bit too much. It definitely deserves testing.

Edited by Trevize84

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@Trevize84 you tagged me in that response but I'm not sure why, as none of what you went on to say had anything at all to do with my question.

I'm not disputing whether any particular part of the SC card is what makes them top-tier or not, or how reliably each and every member of the team can one-shot the opponent's figures (does the opponent get to play at any point, or...?). None of that is at all relevant. I'm asking why it's apparently important for SC to be top-tier. The closest there's been to an answer is "they're iconic", but far more iconic groups are not top-tier and in fact are barely workable, and that's never been considered a big enough problem to spend time talking about; so the real answer is, "it's not important at all". If there had never been an SC card, nobody would have thought to demand one. So any defence of the SC card must start not with explaining why the SC card makes them the best list in the game, but why it matters that they must be the best list in the game. Clearly: it doesn't.

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+ 1 dmg to all Spectres
and:
"At the end of round exaust this card to choose a friendly figure, that figure may perform an attack"

I think that's fair, You can't change the specter list so they will be weaker with every new expansion.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bitterman said:

@Trevize84 you tagged me in that response but I'm not sure why, as none of what you went on to say had anything at all to do with my question.

I'm not disputing whether any particular part of the SC card is what makes them top-tier or not, or how reliably each and every member of the team can one-shot the opponent's figures (does the opponent get to play at any point, or...?). None of that is at all relevant. I'm asking why it's apparently important for SC to be top-tier. The closest there's been to an answer is "they're iconic", but far more iconic groups are not top-tier and in fact are barely workable, and that's never been considered a big enough problem to spend time talking about; so the real answer is, "it's not important at all". If there had never been an SC card, nobody would have thought to demand one. So any defence of the SC card must start not with explaining why the SC card makes them the best list in the game, but why it matters that they must be the best list in the game. Clearly: it doesn't.

I just wanted to quote you, but by mistake I quoted myself instead... then when I tried to fix the post I was on a new page and it didn't work. So best way I found to notify you that I replied to your last message was to tag you. I mean the message where you said "Still waiting for someone to explain why this is a problem.". And I explained why removing 1 damage from SC is a problem.

I believe SC has to be into the competitive meta, as everything else should. I believe any fix we or designers attempt should go into the direction of taking out-of-meta cards and adjust them to the power level of the current meta. Any solution that takes new cards and try to nerf them will only destroy part of the content we paid for. We had 2 examples in the past: imperial guards and saboteurs. Depending on the figure that gets nerfed, also campaing will risk to get broken (see saboteurs' campaing mission in core box).

If we want to nerf SC my best guess is removing the +1 block. If we want to do things right, we need to bring old stuff back again into the meta, then find a way to produce more content without having to push higher the power level of the meta. Otherwise we will end up like in World of Warcraft when they had to remove thousands from numbers because they scaled up too much after few expansions. In our case we will start rolling 7 dice per attack...

Edited by Trevize84

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Posted (edited)

I think @Bitterman's question of "why this is a problem" isn't referring to why spectre cell figures wouldn't work mechanically without the card, but rather why it even matters that spectre cell figures need to be played together in the first place.

In any case, my answer to that second question would be "because they're a fun/novel list".   Not the characters, per se (I haven't watched the show much and don't personally care whether or not these six can be run together) but rather the list archetype itself.

Before the spectre release, every competitive list could broadly be split into a few archetypes: "Hunters" (Han/Rangers, lots of scum lists), "Vader & Friends", some rebel hero "box" lists and then a few weirdo outliers that you didn't often see (VP shenanigans, spies, bantha, strain, etc.).  Spectre, with its strong melee figures, lack of list synergy and most importantly its free spectre cell attack, provided a completely new way to play the game.  To my mind a fun and diverse meta isn't about "how many different characters are viable" but rather "how many types of lists are viable".  Playing against 10 hunter lists in a row isn't much better than playing against 10 spectre lists, the only difference is that the spectre power level was so high that individual games felt more futile and it encouraged everyone to run it.

If they could find a way to keep the new spectre playstyle, but to tune the power level so that it is still competitive without being overpowered, we'd get to keep a fun new archetype without being overwhelmed by playing a million spectres.

Edited by ManateeX

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Me and my friends have made some home testing of Spectre Cell and for our group this version seems to be balanced:

Spectre Cell

Cost: 0. Can only be used... (you know that)

1. Exhaust this card to get +1 block or +1 dmg during any attack

2. Deplete this card during friendly figure's activation to choose another friendly figure. The chosen figure gains 2 movement points and may interrupt to perform an attack

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I haven't read through all responses in the thread, but has someone proposed turning it into an attachment?  Exhaust during the attached figures activation to grant the free attack to another figure.  When the attached figure dies the +1 attack, +1 defense, and extra attack goes away.

I think this would solve a couple of things.  The list would retain it's power for overcost/underpowered figures like Zeb and Kanan.  It would give the list a clear weakness--defeat the SC-attached figure and you cripple the list.  It adds a layer of strategy--do you attach it to the weakest figures (chopper/hera) and retain an SC triple tap with Strength in Numbers, or do you attach it to a bigger body that is harder to kill but closer to the action?

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Posted (edited)

What about splitting the attack buff and defense buff?

while this card is unexhausted, gain +1 dmg

while this card is exhausted, gain +1 block. 

It would make the timing interesting the play with, whether you need to play defensively or offensively. 

Could work the wording that you get the attack boost during the spectre cell attack. 

Edited by Brigadierblu
Phrasing

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Perhaps second part about movent and attack could be changed to work only on ready figures so that SC has to be used earlier in the round. Also first part could just apply +1 DMG (no +1 block).

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