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Mandelore of the Rings

Suggestions/proposals for Community voted Spectre Cell Fix

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Posted (edited)

Let's state this clearly: playing SC is a lot of fun. Playing in a meta made of SC only isn't funny at all instead. Problem isn't to ban or not to ban. Problem how is to make other factions closer in power or alternatively how to nerf SC. 

My opinion is that you can't nerf SC without destroying the list itself. So nerf isn't an option.

If SC is OP we just need to make imperials and scum OP as well. That's why the April's fool of board wars is probably the best idea I've read so far on how to address the SC problem.

Edited by Trevize84

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3 minutes ago, Trevize84 said:

Let's state this clearly: playing SC is a lot of fun. Playing in a meta made of SC only isn't funny at all instead. Problem isn't to ban or not to ban. Problem how is to make other factions closer in power or alternatively how to nerf SC. 

My opinion is that you can't nerf SC without destroying the list itself. So nerf isn't an option.

If SC is OP we just need to make imperials and scum OP as well. That's why the April's fool of board wars is probably the best idea I've read so far on how to address the SC problem.

They could kill two birds by figuring out a way to increase the viability of all those unviable deployment cards.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

They could kill two birds by figuring out a way to increase the viability of all those unviable deployment cards.

Reverting the FAQ about VP scoring would immediately bring back all imperial troopers. A trooper spam is potentially lethal for SC (imagine 12-14 figures on the map) assuming you have a guarantee of 1-2 DMGs past defense per attack.

Regarding Scum, just give them a couple more Hunter's cards (which would also benefit Rangers as a rebel alternative to SC) and perhaps a Boba fix so that people shuts up once and for all. 

Edited by Trevize84

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8 minutes ago, Trevize84 said:

Reverting the FAQ about VP scoring would immediately bring back all imperial troopers. A trooper spam is potentially lethal for SC (imagine 12-14 figures on the map) assuming you have a guarantee of 1-2 DMGs past defense per attack.

Regarding Scum, just give them a couple more Hunter's cards (which would also benefit Rangers as a rebel alternative to SC) and perhaps a Boba fix so that people shuts up once and for all. 

Troopers need some love.  I'd love to see them become a viable Imp list.  I think they need more than just the VP change.

Not sure what exactly

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2 hours ago, a1bert said:

You seem to mean trait and not keyword. It seems that the only keyword for Spectre would be Mobile, which would be both situationally great and situationally useless.

 

 

Yes. I meant trait. I forgot what the specific terminology was and hoped context would make my intent clear.

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9 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

Am I the only weirdo who thinks the individual SC figures are competitve already (sans SC) and don't need updating?

Yup, I reckon they are pretty fine as is.  Who says they all have to be run together as a big unit?  It's been a fun idea and it was cool for a season but I think it's easiest just to ban the card now.  Meta would still be different to the previous iteration because we have Thrawn, Hondo, DT's, LoLcatz and 4 new spectre cell members!  That is plenty to add to what WAS a healthy meta.  Without the SC card we would have seen some pretty diverse lists (probably, maybe I'm wrong). 

The more I think about it, the more I think it (SC) was fun for a while (or not?) and now it's time is over.  That's the easiest fix/nerf.  Ban it.  I'm sure we'd still see Zeb and Kanan running around from time to time.  Certainly Sabine, Chops, Hera and Ezra. 

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2 hours ago, Mandelore of the Rings said:

Yup, I reckon they are pretty fine as is.  Who says they all have to be run together as a big unit?  It's been a fun idea and it was cool for a season but I think it's easiest just to ban the card now.  Meta would still be different to the previous iteration because we have Thrawn, Hondo, DT's, LoLcatz and 4 new spectre cell members!  That is plenty to add to what WAS a healthy meta.  Without the SC card we would have seen some pretty diverse lists (probably, maybe I'm wrong). 

The more I think about it, the more I think it (SC) was fun for a while (or not?) and now it's time is over.  That's the easiest fix/nerf.  Ban it.  I'm sure we'd still see Zeb and Kanan running around from time to time.  Certainly Sabine, Chops, Hera and Ezra. 

I'm starting to come around to this line of thinking.  As someone who has never played SC I actually think SC is fun to play against in general (the free SC attack and strong melee figures offer a much different "puzzle" than other lists), but it's no good when there's too much of it (and when it's pretty much the default list if you want to win a big event).  I'd be sad to see it go, but in lieu of any better ideas a ban with the "it had its time" mentality might just be the right one.  It's not like someone couldn't still play SC in a fun game, just not at major tourneys.

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9 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Just ban it. 

I think this is about the only way to reset the meta. 

I'm of the belief that a new SC team-up card should be made. Having a 6-figure list that can do tag-team attacks is a really fun mechanic. What makes it too strong is how SC's defense bonus makes the SC figures almost impossible to punish when they overextend. Also, I think that the bonus attack should be restricted a bit, and I'm not 100% sure if every member of Spectre needs the +1 DMG.

Hopefully in the future I'll have a suggestion for replacement.

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Don't get me wrong.  I actually like the SC mechanics too and think it's fun but there is too much of a good think.  Imagine how diverse the meta would have been this year without it!  We had a bunch of new figures and CC's to play with.   It was just too much fun and it's had it's time.  But yeah, I do like that tag team mechanic.  Very cool.  I guess the blocks and damages bonus ruined it. That's why my other suggestion was get rid of blocks and damages and make it cost 3.

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7 hours ago, Trevize84 said:

Reverting the FAQ about VP scoring would immediately bring back all imperial troopers. A trooper spam is potentially lethal for SC (imagine 12-14 figures on the map) assuming you have a guarantee of 1-2 DMGs past defense per attack.

I started playing after the change to VP scoring (I think - only last year) - why did the change make Imperial Troopers unviable?

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15 minutes ago, dysartes said:

I started playing after the change to VP scoring

Yeah me too.  Gotta say though, that rule change is for the best.  That sounds like a really stupid strategy/rule to be able to just keep one trooper back so the opponent couldn't get any points.  I personally do not want that rule changed back.

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Maybe 3 months ago there was an argument for keeping SC in the meta, but at this point everyone's sick of it being omnipresent and doesn't want to see it anymore. 

If you really want to keep it in the game, remove the static buffs altogether. The extra attack is what makes the list fun and also where the skill is. 

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1 hour ago, dysartes said:

I started playing after the change to VP scoring (I think - only last year) - why did the change make Imperial Troopers unviable?

Because things like rStormtroopers keel over and die if you so much as glance in their direction, taking them is now just a way to gift your opponent with free VPs.

The old way, you could use two troopers to just block LOS to more powerful figures, while the third sat on a terminal or whatever, and your opponent would have to work quite hard to score those six VPs - he knew that killing the LOS-blockers would get him nothing so it forced him to make uncomfortable choices. I'm not saying it made much sense, or that it didn't have downsides; but you could, on occasion, depending on what else you took, find room for troopers in a list. Now, you'd be an idiot to take them.

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Bringing back the old VP scoring rules wouldn't bring back unviable figures, it would just make the multi-figure groups that are still viable that much stronger and more annoying, like Riots, Rangers and Weequays. 

elite Stormies fell out of the meta because they couldn't deal with the static defense buffs that figures like Vader Han and IG were bringing, buffs which are multiplied when you are making multiple weak attacks instead of a couple of strong attacks, and because they were so easily one-shot by the aformentioned figures as well as focused weequays and Rangers before they could even get into range. They're just below the current efficiency curve of what a figure needs to be able to do for its points cost. 

If you're trying to rebalance a game, don't introduce buffs that help strong figures just as much as they help weak figures. That just changes the goalposts without actually changing the score. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, dysartes said:

I started playing after the change to VP scoring (I think - only last year) - why did the change make Imperial Troopers unviable?

Take a trooper group of 3, keep one in depzone use reinforcement on the others when they die conceding 0 VPs to the opponent . Spam a lot of troopers and your opponent will have 20 different targets that are worth too few to waste such an amount of rounds in killing them.

Edited by Trevize84

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Bringing back the old VP scoring rules wouldn't bring back unviable figures, it would just make the multi-figure groups that are still viable that much stronger and more annoying, like Riots, Rangers and Weequays. 

elite Stormies fell out of the meta because they couldn't deal with the static defense buffs that figures like Vader Han and IG were bringing, buffs which are multiplied when you are making multiple weak attacks instead of a couple of strong attacks, and because they were so easily one-shot by the aformentioned figures as well as focused weequays and Rangers before they could even get into range. They're just below the current efficiency curve of what a figure needs to be able to do for its points cost. 

If you're trying to rebalance a game, don't introduce buffs that help strong figures just as much as they help weak figures. That just changes the goalposts without actually changing the score. 

2xeJets + 4xrJets + Terro and some other power-ups like Vader's Finest. Bring 2xReinforcement, Shared Experience and enjoy your 4 die immortal eJets. Your opponent won't kill your troopers for 0 VPs knowing you get a free focus for that or eventually redeploy them...

Edited by Trevize84

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I'm typically for the exclusion of SC, but if we're proposing changes to the card I want to put in my 2 cents.

Hear me out

Instead of the static +1 block and +1 damage, it would say, "At the start of each round, each friendly figure gains 1 damage power token or 1 block power token.

That's it. Everything else is the same. This would still make the tag team attack pretty viable but would make it so the Spectres couldn't add bonuses as often. The player would have to be much more strategic about how they play, making sure to save tokens for a big attack or turtling one of their figures if they don't want them to die.

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5 minutes ago, GuillotineTE said:

Instead of the static +1 block and +1 damage, it would say, "At the start of each round, each friendly figure gains 1 damage power token or 1 block power token.

You need the +1 damage on SC otherwise the list is rubbish

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I think having a list where all 6 Spectres can operate together is pretty important. For a generation of fans, they are an iconic group of heroes. The list's design, where Command cards are nice bonuses, terminal control is less important and the extra move/attack exhaustable ability, is fun to play. The important failure is the list is not fun to play AGAINST.

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Just now, cnemmick said:

I think having a list where all 6 Spectres can operate together is pretty important. For a generation of fans, they are an iconic group of heroes.

Right, but, Luke/Leia/Han/Chewie are a far more iconic group of heroes to far more people, and they make for a terrible skirmish list (though one I've had fun with in friendly games) - and you can't even fit in R2 or 3PO. Why isn't it as important for all those to be usable in the same top-tier tournament list?

Large numbers of Stormtroopers are iconic too, though not as heroes. Fancy taking four squads of those to your next tournament (though again, I've used them plenty of times in friendly games)? Why isn't it as important for them to be usable in a tournament-ready list?

You can take all 6 Spectres if you want to. You can play fun games with them, against other themed lists. Why is it also necessary for it to be a top-tier tournament list? To put it another way, if the SC card had never existed, would the community be screaming out for some kind of massive bonus available only to a very rigidly defined SC list that makes it a top-tier tournament list? Who would that have even occurred to... and why?

Asking why it's a problem if they don't work too well as a tournament list (given that they already demonstrably fit in 40 points and are just fine in a theme list for use against other fun or theme lists) isn't answered simply by restating that it's important that they do.

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7 minutes ago, cnemmick said:

I think having a list where all 6 Spectres can operate together is pretty important. For a generation of fans, they are an iconic group of heroes. The list's design, where Command cards are nice bonuses, terminal control is less important and the extra move/attack exhaustable ability, is fun to play. The important failure is the list is not fun to play AGAINST.

I would say important failure is that it is a list that more or less cannot be played against.  Also, in Rebels, it was rare that all six were ever working together, so I don't think it is necessary.  Yes, the list can be beaten, but it is demonstrably rare.   The SC player has a bad run of CC and bad run of dice, yeah, it can suffer a loss to a non-SC list, but it isn't likely, and that's not good.  Skirmish has nothing to do with Thematic portrayal anyway, else how to explain the, prior to lately, overuse of Gideon and C3PO in many lists?

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36 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

Skirmish has nothing to do with Thematic portrayal anyway, else how to explain the, prior to lately, overuse of Gideon and C3PO in many lists?

Excellent point. I feel like ideally most of the recognizable characters should individually be good enough at something to be competitive in the right list. It gives the game a reason to have the Star Wars ip. That doesn't mean any given combination has to be top tier, certainly. 

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1 hour ago, Bitterman said:

Asking why it's a problem if they don't work too well as a tournament list (given that they already demonstrably fit in 40 points and are just fine in a theme list for use against other fun or theme lists) isn't answered simply by restating that it's important that they do.

I think that it's important to keep the unique playstyle that SC offers. No other competitive list runs like that, and I think it would be unfortunate to completely remove it from the game.

That being said -- and as I've said before in this thread -- I think the only solution is to ban SC as-is right now. Either FFG or somebody will come up with another SC that offers the same play experience without it being so unfun to play against. 

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