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Mandelore of the Rings

Suggestions/proposals for Community voted Boba Fett Fix

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Posted (edited)

I think it's important to match established patterns wherever possible, if you want a community-driven card to get acceptance by the wider community (within a gaming group, go wild, do whatever the group can agree on). The Vader/Han/etc. fixes have all been achieved through Attachment Skirmish Upgrade cards. Fett's needs to do the same.

Edited by Bitterman

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9 hours ago, Bitterman said:

I think it's important to match established patterns wherever possible, if you want a community-driven card to get acceptance by the wider community (within a gaming group, go wild, do whatever the group can agree on). The Vader/Han/etc. fixes have all been achieved through Attachment Skirmish Upgrade cards. Fett's needs to do the same.

1.  You're right 

2.  Unfortunately, Fett is such a mess I'm not sure how viable that will be.  A better option might be to just go the Jedi Luke route and create a totally separate deployment card.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

...just go the Jedi Luke route and create a totally separate deployment card.

Fair point. The difference (obviously) is that hero Luke and Jedi Luke represented Luke at different stages of his Hero's Journey / in different films, whereas Boba Fett doesn't have such an arc. But you're right that the precedent exists in the game, so the "fix" could reasonably make use of that approach.

43 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

Unfortunately, Fett is such a mess I'm not sure how viable that will be.

Is he that terrible? I mean, I wouldn't take him currently, he's too pricey, but... he's got good health and excellent defense, excellent speed and Mobile, a three-dice attack, and some OK surges. Granted, Battle Presence is almost completely pointless, and his attack/surges aren't great enough to justify his points (similarly priced figures these days can all(?) attack twice by some means, or in a couple of cases even activate twice with a lucky Command Card draw), but it's not like he's the worst figure in the game. For 8 or 9 points he'd be a solid pick, wouldn't he?

Perhaps the first step should be to define exactly what we expect of him, and identify the way in which his current representation fails to achieve that goal...

Edited by Bitterman

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Bitterman said:

Fair point, there is precedent for that. The difference (obviously) is that hero Luke and Jedi Luke represented Luke at different stages of his Hero's Journey / in different films, whereas Boba Fett doesn't have such an arc. But you're right that the precedent exists in the game, so the "fix" could reasonably make use of that precedent.

Is he that terrible? I mean, I wouldn't take him currently, he's too pricey, but... he's got good health and excellent defense, excellent speed and Mobile, a three-dice attack, and some OK surges. Granted, Battle Presence is almost completely pointless, and his attack/surges aren't great enough to justify his points (similarly priced figures these days can all(?) attack twice by some means, or in a couple of cases even activate twice with a lucky Command Card draw), but it's not like he's the worst figure in the game. For 8 or 9 points he'd be a solid pick, wouldn't he?

Perhaps the first step should be to define exactly what we expect of him, and identify the way in which his current representation fails to achieve that goal...

Just do this and be done with it.

Maybe Create a separate equip card  exclusive to Boba or all Mandalorian characters (may only be used by Boba, Shyla, or Sabine) giving extra buffs or effects.

Edited by King_Balrog

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38 minutes ago, Bitterman said:

Is he that terrible?

I think so.

Battle presence is horribly thought out and belongs on a melee figure.  

Pierce 1 on a 13 cost figure is preposterous 

His dice pool is my least favorite, especially with no re-roll.

If I was making boba Fett from scratch, he'd have a consistent dice pool or a reroll.  The ability to perform multiple attacks.  Some ability that thematically fits (a rocket or that binding rope he shoots in Jedi for example) and some kind of defensive ability.

That's assuming you want to make him an IG level "queen piece" which I think makes sense given he's the most feared BH and scum is all about BH.  As currently configured, he'd have to cost around 7 points for me to consider bringing him in a scum list

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Posted (edited)

Ability suggestion:

He's no good to me dead - When you reduce a hostile figure to zero health, instead of defeating that figure, it is captured.  A captured figure moves with Boba Fett.  If the captured figure is returned to your deployment zone, gain double the victory points

Edited by Jaric256

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Posted (edited)

 

3 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

Ability suggestion:

He's no good to me dead - When you reduce a hostile figure to zero health, instead of defeating that figure, it is captured.  A captured figure moves with Boba Fett.  If the captured figure is returned to your deployment zone, gain double the victory points

Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where? - If Boba Fett is struck with a melee attack by a Weakened figure, he is defeated.

 

Edited by Weatherwax2099

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13 minutes ago, dysartes said:

What are you defining as the target power level for him? Surely that's a question which needs answering early in this process?

Indeed.

My assumption (and I'm assuming most others, but that is just an assumption) would be for him to be comparable with Jedi Luke, IG-88, Han, or Vader (which may not all be perfectly the same level, but in that ballpark).

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16 hours ago, Mandelore of the Rings said:

I know I'm jumping the gun here, but I was wondering what cool things anyone had come up with already!  Hopefully FFG will reveal their awesome and official fix card soon and this will all be pointless... but just for fun, what have you got?

For one, his cost should go down.  For second, he needs to have the keyword "vehicle" added to his keywords.  Also he should have all this abilities instead of choosing.  With those changes, and an appropriate costing, he becomes a viable figure.  I don't need Boba to be the bestest evar, but he needs to be costed accordingly.  If you study Ezra, who has many of his same abilities, Ezra is demonstrably more powerful than Boba, and only costs 7 points.  

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Bitterman said:

Indeed.

My assumption (and I'm assuming most others, but that is just an assumption) would be for him to be comparable with Jedi Luke, IG-88, Han, or Vader (which may not all be perfectly the same level, but in that ballpark).

I don't think he needs to be as powerful as Luke or Vader.  I mean many of his love him, but he doesn't have to be a tier 1 character.  I would rather he show up in a lot of lists, rather than a list being built up around him.  It just a matter of cost.  If you simply changed his cost to like 8, he would cost appropriately.  If he is going to be a 13 point character, then he needs more ability.  As I said in the previous post.  Just making him a vehicle would help out in Skirmish.  If you added vehicle and brawler to his keyword list, that would open a lot of cards to help him. 

Edited by Rikalonius

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23 minutes ago, dysartes said:

What are you defining as the target power level for him? Surely that's a question which needs answering early in this process?

I would expect him to be the most powerful of the ESB Bounty Hunters, probably just above Bossk and IG in cost/power and between those two in terms of survivability and lethality. Ideally the six would be priced enough to fit in a list with Zuckuss and 4-LOM as more support types.

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13 hours ago, ricope said:

This is what I play with at home, none of which were originally made by me

Version 1, don't remember who initially posted this

 

Version 2 and 3 from @cnemmick's skirmish fix

        

I can't stand these abilities that remove dodge.  I hate reading the posts that whine about dodge.  Oh, don't get my wrong.  It is absolutely annoying, but so is rolling a blank when you are trying to survive.  It is an integral part of the design of the game in having two different defense systems. 

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5 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

I can't stand these abilities that remove dodge.  I hate reading the posts that whine about dodge.  Oh, don't get my wrong.  It is absolutely annoying, but so is rolling a blank when you are trying to survive.  It is an integral part of the design of the game in having two different defense systems. 

Agreed, except that Pierce 3 removes a black dice, why shouldn't -1 Dodge remove a white dice?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Weatherwax2099 said:

I would expect him to be the most powerful of the ESB Bounty Hunters, probably just above Bossk and IG in cost/power and between those two in terms of survivability and lethality. Ideally the six would be priced enough to fit in a list with Zuckuss and 4-LOM as more support types.

True, I'd also expect him to be above Bossk and IG because he's much more iconic... but with the three of them plus Dengar already 40 points, there's simply no room for Zuckuss and 4-LOM as well. Even if they were 2 and 3 points, Boba would have to drop to 8, and he can't be better than IG if he's only 8 points. (Maybe you could make it work if you redesigned/recosted all the existing cards as well as adding the other two, but that's way out of scope and a much bigger change).

I don't see this as a problem. You can't take Luke, Obi-Wan, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2, and 3PO all in the same list and they (or some combination of some of them) are the core characters of the films that defined the entire setting. Why should it be important to be able to take all six bounty hunters, when five of them appeared on screen for all of five seconds? Far more important to make the only one that most casual Star Wars fans could name, properly impactful. A 10-13 point Boba (depending where he ends up) feels right. An 8-point Boba doesn't, not to me.

Edited by Bitterman

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1 hour ago, Bitterman said:

True, I'd also expect him to be above Bossk and IG because he's much more iconic... but with the three of them plus Dengar already 40 points, there's simply no room for Zuckuss and 4-LOM as well. Even if they were 2 and 3 points, Boba would have to drop to 8, and he can't be better than IG if he's only 8 points. (Maybe you could make it work if you redesigned/recosted all the existing cards as well as adding the other two, but that's way out of scope and a much bigger change).

I don't see this as a problem. You can't take Luke, Obi-Wan, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2, and 3PO all in the same list and they (or some combination of some of them) are the core characters of the films that defined the entire setting. Why should it be important to be able to take all six bounty hunters, when five of them appeared on screen for all of five seconds? Far more important to make the only one that most casual Star Wars fans could name, properly impactful. A 10-13 point Boba (depending where he ends up) feels right. An 8-point Boba doesn't, not to me.

Boba Fett should be a "queen piece" in my opinion.  Ideally I should be agonizing over taking him or IG in my list.

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Just for fun:

Skirmish upgrade (0 points)

At the start of each of your activations, gain 2 movement points.

2 [strain]: Use at the start of your activation to take "Mandelorian Tactics" into hand from your deck or discard pile.

You may trigger the same [surge] ability twice.

 

Basically designed to get really good use out of Mandelorian Tactics. Normally it's hard to set up a double attack, and the extra surge is often wasted. I think the last line in particular is a huge buff- 2x surge for +2, and the potential to recover 8 in an activation.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bitterman said:

Agreed, except that Pierce 3 removes a black dice, why shouldn't -1 Dodge remove a white dice?

I get it, but I think pierce is over used as well.  We are getting to the point where we may as well not even have defense dice.  I hate going back to Star Wars Miniatures, but it went from a very elegant game to one that each attack took 10 minutes because everyone who would ever end up on a list had either a gimmick; or Double Attack with Twin Attack, some ability that gives you a 50% chance to dodge, and if it was a force user, some kind of force point regeneration.  Also, clear Luke dodged B-Fett on Bespin 😃

Edited by Rikalonius

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3 hours ago, Bitterman said:

True, I'd also expect him to be above Bossk and IG because he's much more iconic... but with the three of them plus Dengar already 40 points, there's simply no room for Zuckuss and 4-LOM as well. Even if they were 2 and 3 points, Boba would have to drop to 8, and he can't be better than IG if he's only 8 points. (Maybe you could make it work if you redesigned/recosted all the existing cards as well as adding the other two, but that's way out of scope and a much bigger change).

I don't see this as a problem. You can't take Luke, Obi-Wan, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2, and 3PO all in the same list and they (or some combination of some of them) are the core characters of the films that defined the entire setting. Why should it be important to be able to take all six bounty hunters, when five of them appeared on screen for all of five seconds? Far more important to make the only one that most casual Star Wars fans could name, properly impactful. A 10-13 point Boba (depending where he ends up) feels right. An 8-point Boba doesn't, not to me.

I agree with you on this.  Besides, the Bounty Hunters wouldn't necessarily work together.  They have competing interests.  I think hunters should supplement lists, not being lists of their own.  Based on Fett's icon status, I agree, it would be hard to let IG-88 be better than them, but we must accept that in battle, IG-88 might be more powerful, and Boba Fett, being a master of capturing prey, may rely on mechanics not available to a skirmish game.  Also, I'm all for making Zuckass and 4-LOM cheap characters, like Greedo, who have synergy with each other.  Just by 4-LOM being a Droid, he'll have synergy with IG-88.  

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This doesn't work thematically, but I wouldn't mind 4Lom and Zuckuss replacing 3po and Gideon.  Doesn't even have to be focus, but filling that same role of a buffing support figure.  

It's weird that two of the most vital and often included members of scum lists are rebels.

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8 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

This doesn't work thematically, but I wouldn't mind 4Lom and Zuckuss replacing 3po and Gideon.  Doesn't even have to be focus, but filling that same role of a buffing support figure.  

It's weird that two of the most vital and often included members of scum lists are rebels.

If I remember correctly, in the old EU at least, Zuckuss is a spiritual force user that can see the future and seems to be more of a team player than a lot of bounty hunters and 4-LOM is a skilled thief, hacker, and manipulator. They do their work through planning, cunning, and cooperation rather than raw power. It doesn't seem at all unthematic to me for them to fill the spot of the rebel care package.

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16 minutes ago, Weatherwax2099 said:

If I remember correctly, in the old EU at least, Zuckuss is a spiritual force user that can see the future and seems to be more of a team player than a lot of bounty hunters and 4-LOM is a skilled thief, hacker, and manipulator. They do their work through planning, cunning, and cooperation rather than raw power. It doesn't seem at all unthematic to me for them to fill the spot of the rebel care package.

 

31 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

This doesn't work thematically, but I wouldn't mind 4Lom and Zuckuss replacing 3po and Gideon.  Doesn't even have to be focus, but filling that same role of a buffing support figure.  

It's weird that two of the most vital and often included members of scum lists are rebels.

 

Both of these are quite right.  I think that would be a great use of Z and LOM.  The Gideon/3PO dichotomy is annoying.  And as Weather says, 4-LOM is a force user.  I really thought he'd be the first, but then they gave us Maul, whom I do like.  I look at Zuckuss as someone who is like cross between Mak and Alliance Smuggler.    

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