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FFG live: April 2nd, 2pm est

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1 minute ago, IronNerd said:

I didn't watch and haven't seen this question pop up (unless I'm not reading the above correctly)...

Can you fly *under* the SSD? If the base is two larges with a gap in the middle... I'd love to park my MC30 right beneath that thing and let the side arcs roar!

The shipbase card covers the entire length, no 'gap'

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3 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

You must be new to gaming in general.

There is no, "everything is balanced, 100% and its wonderful". Regardless of video games, board games, sports games, ect. There will always be, "This works better or worse than the other things." If it was any more powerful than it is now, then people would say its too powerful, some people would still say it wasn't powerful enough.

 

and understanding that... is balance.

I recommend a deep dive in Sc2 history in comparison to its modern iteration, which is considered exceptionally well balanced and diverse. (MUCH better than both Armada especially and Xwing). 

There is a happy point of high diversity, which Sc2 has literally achieved. 

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5 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

I didn't watch and haven't seen this question pop up (unless I'm not reading the above correctly)...

Can you fly *under* the SSD? If the base is two larges with a gap in the middle... I'd love to park my MC30 right beneath that thing and let the side arcs roar!

Edit: WAIT! It's one piece of cardboard, right? I'll see myself out...

I do however love your thinking about passing through gaps :D

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9 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

You must be new to gaming in general.

There is no, "everything is balanced, 100% and its wonderful". Regardless of video games, board games, sports games, ect. There will always be, "This works better or worse than the other things." If it was any more powerful than it is now, then people would say its too powerful, some people would still say it wasn't powerful enough.

Nah man. I have been happily playing StarCraft 2 for almost 10 years now and it is pretty much "everything is balanced, 100% and its wonderful" to be honest.

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Well not every ship is equally valuable at every point total. I'm a huge SSD fan, but I'd rather it not be a tournament staple. However I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't a good pick at 800+ points.

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10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I recommend a deep dive in Sc2 history in comparison to its modern iteration, which is considered exceptionally well balanced and diverse. (MUCH better than both Armada especially and Xwing).  

There is a happy point of high diversity, which Sc2 has literally achieved.  

 

2 minutes ago, LordCola said:

Nah man. I have been happily playing StarCraft 2 for almost 10 years now and it is pretty much "everything is balanced, 100% and its wonderful" to be honest.

StarCraft has also been in existence for 20 years, with 7 major expansions and dozens of patches during the SC2 era. Its one of the few examples of games where, its perfectly imbalanced. I wouldn't say its 100% balanced, because when I started playing I was told that Terran was a garbage faction and almost no one except the top tier pros who want to test themselves do it. It plays very well on the imbalance wheel of life. I'm sure people still complain about something being op though.

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1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Nice. 

I plan on putting the SSD through the crucible of our local group. Maybe it'll surprise me.  

Most of the answers we got I was expecting the opposite. 
-I thought for sure Tua would work (auto include in my book).
-motti would be errata'd to help
-Auxiliary arcs would gain the same benefits of side arcs...
-Solid huge base instead of 2 large bases
-Full destruction required for points

Just... oof....

The only things that went as expected were the deployment and movement rules. 

Oh well.... I guess I'm less worried about these rules at 400 as I am at sector fleet point totals. No ECM at a 1200 point level means you had better be ready to lose it. 

If you add one of these to your list

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Minister Tua  ( 2  points)
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points)
-  Repair Crews  ( 4  points)
= 36 total ship cost

and fly towards the station, you could potentially discard two damage cards per turn.

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9 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

when I started playing I was told that Terran was a garbage faction and almost no one except the top tier pros who want to test themselves do it.

I am sorry that you were told garbage.

 

13 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

I wouldn't say its 100% balanced,

10 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

I'm sure people still complain about something being op though.

Yeah but that doesn't matter. There is data. There is like a 2% delta in the factions win rates across all leagues and regions.

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Posted (edited)

Even ignoring all other considerations- every Commander and any ship with a Fleet Command slot will be better at higher point values. This is unavoidable. So it's natural that the SSD, with two Fleet Command slots, is better at higher point values. For it to not be broken at 800 or 1000 points, it has to be underwhelming at 400 points. The same is true with more expensive Commanders.

On top of that, every ship is more effective when it has more upgrades, and the better it is the more you should upgrade it to get your points worth. For example, it's usually a bad investment to run a naked ISD. If a fully upgraded SSD prototype is nearly 300 points, and then you don't have room for enough squadrons to take advantage of your squadron value of 5, and you don't have enough ships to take advantage of its double Fleet Commands. So of course it is bad. For it to be good at 400 points it would either need to be (a) completely busted at 800 points, or (b) not a ship that synergizes with other ships and squadrons, which is the exact opposite of what it is designed to be!

An SSD should be a cool inclusion in a game at 800+ points, but it would be boring to fight over and over again at 400 points. Because it would be basically the entire list. So you would be fighting the same thing over and over again! So it SHOULD be bad!

Sorry guys, I'm a true SSD fanboy and no one will bring me down!

Edited by bleezy

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ling27 said:

 

StarCraft has also been in existence for 20 years, with 7 major expansions and dozens of patches during the SC2 era. Its one of the few examples of games where, its perfectly imbalanced. I wouldn't say its 100% balanced, because when I started playing I was told that Terran was a garbage faction and almost no one except the top tier pros who want to test themselves do it. It plays very well on the imbalance wheel of life. I'm sure people still complain about something being op though.

Nobody said its 100% balanced.   I take it back, LordCola said 100%. haarharharharharh

We said its highly diverse, and much more balanced than Armada or even Xwing. 

Also you don't have to take my word for this. Go to team liquid.net on sc2 and look at the forum. Note how less and how much smaller the whine threads are. And also how debunked they are often by subsequent posters. You're confusing the noise metric of "people always complain" vs "people have legitimate concerns that rationally withstand scrutiny". Remember the scientific method. Remove the noise variables. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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56 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:

I do however love your thinking about passing through gaps :D

I think it would be an incredibly fun tactic. Honestly, it's space, we should be able to do it... Then again, the fiddly-ness of flying under a ship makes my head hurt.

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32 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

If you add one of these to your list

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Minister Tua  ( 2  points)
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points)
-  Repair Crews  ( 4  points)
= 36 total ship cost

and fly towards the station, you could potentially discard two damage cards per turn.

I love this as an addition to @clontroper5's list. And then I was about to suggest dropping Defense Liason for Strategic Advisor, but I guess we cant have those since it's "Large Ships only." :( 

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2 minutes ago, vitasmortis said:

I love this as an addition to @clontroper5's list. And then I was about to suggest dropping Defense Liason for Strategic Advisor, but I guess we cant have those since it's "Large Ships only." :( 

Yea I probably would just do comms net personally but repair crews would definitely work well with the SSD. 

I'm juggling ideas for the last 85 points, I'm leaning towards a Raider with a Gozanti, but fighters could work or maybe a Victory or something 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, clontroper5 said:

Yea I probably would just do comms net personally but repair crews would definitely work well with the SSD. 

I'm juggling ideas for the last 85 points, I'm leaning towards a Raider with a Gozanti, but fighters could work or maybe a Victory or something 

Yeah I was thinking of dropping Defense Liason and Wulf and adding a second Goz for the activation and tokens. Something like: 

SSD Fleet (375/400)

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

[flagship] Star Dreadnought Assault Prototype (250)
 - Moff Jerjerrod (23)
 - Ravager (4)
 - Leading Shots (4)
 - Quad Laser Turrets (5)
 - Agent Kallus (3)
 - Emperor Palpatine (3)
 - Lira Wessex (2)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
 - H9 Turbolasers (8)
 - Gunnery Team (7)
= 314 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Electronic Counter Measures (7)
 - Repair Crews (4)
 - Minister Tua (2)
= 36 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points

I also like Papa Palpatine making everyone's lives move difficult and Lira making sure every damage card is face-down using repair tokens passed to it from the Comms Net Gozanti. Only problem is that there is so little room for squads. Maybe I'll drop Lira and toss in Morna Kee just for fun?

Edited by vitasmortis

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Kinda bummed by some of the rulings. 

 

I expected certain things like things that specify large ships wouldn't work on huge ships ex hardened bulkheads.  But I didn't expect Tua would be ruled out.  Didn't think Motti would have zero interaction, assumed he'd just give 3 hp like he does w/ large.  Didn't think enhanced armament would be limited to the front side arcs only.  Didn't think the half hp, half points rule would include FULL upgrade pts.  Yeesh, throw the ship a bone.  It didn't get a single ruling in its favor. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, vitasmortis said:

Yeah I was thinking of dropping Defense Liason and Wulf and adding a second Goz for the activation and tokens. Something like: 

SSD Fleet (375/400)

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

[flagship] Star Dreadnought Assault Prototype (250)
 - Moff Jerjerrod (23)
 - Ravager (4)
 - Leading Shots (4)
 - Quad Laser Turrets (5)
 - Agent Kallus (3)
 - Emperor Palpatine (3)
 - Lira Wessex (2)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
 - H9 Turbolasers (8)
 - Gunnery Team (7)
= 314 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Electronic Counter Measures (7)
 - Repair Crews (4)
 - Minister Tua (2)
= 36 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points

I also like Papa Palpatine making everyone's lives move difficult and Lira making sure every damage card is face-down using repair tokens passed to it from the Comms Net Gozanti. Only problem is that there is so little room for squads. Maybe I'll drop Lira and toss in Morna Kee just for fun?

I think I want to add Instigator w/iden when she comes out, and maybe putting Quad Lazer turrets because that would be fun, flak for days!! 

Edited by clontroper5

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13 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Yeesh, throw the ship a bone.  It didn't get a single ruling in its favor. 

It exists.

That's some pretty hardcore RULING right, there!  😎

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The half points awarded and lack of defensive retrofit seems could be a bit too hard of a nerf. A standard 400 point game means you'll just have to swing around the main arc and accrue enough damage to what is basically a weaker ISD I, Kuat, or Cymoon for equal or greater amount of points. The other 1/2 of the points you have invested in the SSD dents what you could've brought to the table along with any of the aforementioned ISD's?.. 

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13 minutes ago, veiv said:

The half points awarded and lack of defensive retrofit seems could be a bit too hard of a nerf. A standard 400 point game means you'll just have to swing around the main arc and accrue enough damage to what is basically a weaker ISD I, Kuat, or Cymoon for equal or greater amount of points. The other 1/2 of the points you have invested in the SSD dents what you could've brought to the table along with any of the aforementioned ISD's?.. 

The SSD can't play like an ISD. It is imperative you play it defensively. This isn't bad, it's just different. In most games with the SSD I want to play objectives that let me at least influence if not outright guarentee the location of the station. In addition, panned cards such as repair crews that have already been mentioned are legit. Finally, and possibly the most massive shift of gears for the SSD is that you CANNOT simply nav (or squad) all 6 turns and be generally ok. It's going to need every command on the dial throughout the game, and takes a lot of skill to get that timing right. 

The end result is that in a game where you are playing double isd for instance, if one isd dies its gone. It's firepower and upgrades are gone, and you can't repair it back to deny points. When the SSD is half hull it suffers no negatives offensively and CAN be healed back up, denying points.

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"When the SSD is half hull it suffers no negatives offensively and CAN be healed back up, denying points."

True - good point

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

The SSD can't play like an ISD. It is imperative you play it defensively. This isn't bad, it's just different. In most games with the SSD I want to play objectives that let me at least influence if not outright guarentee the location of the station. In addition, panned cards such as repair crews that have already been mentioned are legit. Finally, and possibly the most massive shift of gears for the SSD is that you CANNOT simply nav (or squad) all 6 turns and be generally ok. It's going to need every command on the dial throughout the game, and takes a lot of skill to get that timing right. 

The end result is that in a game where you are playing double isd for instance, if one isd dies its gone. It's firepower and upgrades are gone, and you can't repair it back to deny points. When the SSD is half hull it suffers no negatives offensively and CAN be healed back up, denying points.

Hmmmm, Thrawn for double dials SSD? :D or Piett and another token-generating upgrade.

That's a good point about denying points to the enemy. May force SSD players to Eat command earlier in the game

 

Edited by Muelmuel

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