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Manolox

Redline afrer points adjustment

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Hi, the questions are simple:

If you play empire:

Does anybody of you still play redline after points adjustment?

And for the others:

Did you see it anywere?

In my local area it is litterally disappeared.

He needed a points correction but Maybe ffg nerfed him too heavly considering that even protorp and adv. Sensors has been corrected.

What do you think about it?

Please... don't say that you are glad ffg did it only because otherwise you have to play against him because he is no more on the tables and i LOVE punishers :)

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Punishers are still playable but not the brokenly cheap playable as before. Redline AdvS + ProTorp went up from 59 to 74. That's very expensive for a ship that is usually focused down turn 1-2. This is why cheap bombers are now favored for carrying torps and missiles.

Nevertheless they still are the only Imp ship who can take TrajSim so it can be usefull if the meta tends to shieldless swarming with the new factions.

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Played against an Advanced Sensors and Proton Torp Redline on Saturday. It's still a really good ship.  It was buddies with Soontir and a pumped up Major Vynder. All 3 ships were moving after me and it was a fun/nightmarish task to try and get any of them in arc

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So.. imagine if protorp do not exist: 

redline with concussion missiles, nothing else:

Would you put him on the table or not at 58 points?

Just to understand what other players think about 

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11 minutes ago, Manolox said:

So.. imagine if protorp do not exist: 

redline with concussion missiles, nothing else:

Would you put him on the table or not at 58 points?

Just to understand what other players think about 

No, but he's priced because of what he does to Proton Torps.  With Torpedoes and with or without Advanced Sensors, he's a dangerous ship.

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Possibly, but a good question and I don't know. You *could*, for a few more points, put a missile, trajectory sim and your choice of device. Now you're 72-73ish points, and you've made him a bombing and missile threat. I guess it remains to be seen how you uae this guy going forward. I think it's still a reasonably good chassis at 58 points with a missile, especially if he's not your opponent's number one priority target.

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2 hours ago, Manolox said:

So.. imagine if protorp do not exist: 

redline with concussion missiles, nothing else:

Would you put him on the table or not at 58 points?

Just to understand what other players think about 

High initiative, multiple actions, repositioning, guaranteed 3 dice attack with no range bonus (that can be reloaded)... still sounds pretty good against a lot of things 

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16 hours ago, Ximatique said:

Punishers are still playable but not the brokenly cheap playable as before. Redline AdvS + ProTorp went up from 59 to 74. That's very expensive for a ship that is usually focused down turn 1-2. This is why cheap bombers are now favored for carrying torps and missiles.

Nevertheless they still are the only Imp ship who can take TrajSim so it can be usefull if the meta tends to shieldless swarming with the new factions.

For that price of Redline and a Torpedo you can get Vader.  That doesn’t even include the price of bombs and a TrajSim.  That pushes almost up to the price of a Defender.

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19 minutes ago, Arma Quattro said:

On a side note, I see people complaining about the 4/3 phantoms and friend.

Please..

I think the point at which lists containing three or more Phantoms makes up 7 of the Top 16 and then continues to make up half of the cut beyond that point at a System Open, it's worth paying attention...

Edited by Jarval

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Yes but it's undoubtedly a list that requires planning and careful flying. This also applies to the opponent.

Flying head on against 4 ships like that is madness. But apparently it's easier to whine and cry for points raise/nerf rather than actually use strategy. 

Keep in mind that in the current meta we have Leia almost for free that allows white k-turns and tallon rolls for wedge+casual ships that (oh look) have the same or more firepower. 

By the way, ps4 phantom 46pt.. ps6 wedge 52.. same stats. Hmmm... 😏

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In a nutshell, Punisher's (like most Imps) eventually fall in the: "high-ceiling high-floor" arena. Problem is, their initial design input seems to put the floor at a mid-level (so they can have some bonus to the squads and win the initative battle on average) so that players can jump in and enjoy them (and PURCHASE more of them), but this is quickly corrected when they hit in the top tables. Then, when the pricing is squeezed --so that initiative cannot be leveraged or the things that make the squads work very well competitively (on average) cannot be added to the list-- they fall out of the top ship counts and pilots can then only achieve wins at or near the top only when on a knife's edge, and they admittedly are exhausting to fly and win (1.0 experience and watching across the mat in 2.0). This is why mid to high floor is always best and will always be the easier path to victory and will average the top tables mathematically.

The price increase takes Redline from 'very good' to 'can possibly be good if everything works out.' So he's comparatively too much risk to his reward.  The other Punisher's really don't have much of a chance the way the meta sits.

This will happen to the Phantom as well in July.

 

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2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

In a nutshell, Punisher's (like most Imps) eventually fall in the: "high-ceiling high-floor" arena. Problem is, their initial design input seems to put the floor at a mid-level (so they can have some bonus to the squads and win the initative battle on average) so that players can jump in and enjoy them (and PURCHASE more of them), but this is quickly corrected when they hit in the top tables. Then, when the pricing is squeezed --so that initiative cannot be leveraged or the things that make the squads work very well competitively (on average) cannot be added to the list-- they fall out of the top ship counts and pilots can then only achieve wins at or near the top only when on a knife's edge, and they admittedly are exhausting to fly and win (1.0 experience and watching across the mat in 2.0). This is why mid to high floor is always best and will always be the easier path to victory and will average the top tables mathematically.

The price increase takes Redline from 'very good' to 'can possibly be good if everything works out.' So he's comparatively too much risk to his reward.  The other Punisher's really don't have much of a chance the way the meta sits.

This will happen to the Phantom as well in July.

 

Thanks, i think you gave a very good explanation of the situation.

As imperial player I feel like "too much risk to his reward" often.

It's stimulating but tiresome.

 

Edited by Manolox

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19 hours ago, Arma Quattro said:

Yes but it's undoubtedly a list that requires planning and careful flying. This also applies to the opponent.

Flying head on against 4 ships like that is madness. But apparently it's easier to whine and cry for points raise/nerf rather than actually use strategy. 

Keep in mind that in the current meta we have Leia almost for free that allows white k-turns and tallon rolls for wedge+casual ships that (oh look) have the same or more firepower. 

By the way, ps4 phantom 46pt.. ps6 wedge 52.. same stats. Hmmm... 😏

Leia needs to come back up in cost.  I4 phantoms as well end stop.

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20 hours ago, Arma Quattro said:

Yes but it's undoubtedly a list that requires planning and careful flying. This also applies to the opponent.

Flying head on against 4 ships like that is madness. But apparently it's easier to whine and cry for points raise/nerf rather than actually use strategy. 

Keep in mind that in the current meta we have Leia almost for free that allows white k-turns and tallon rolls for wedge+casual ships that (oh look) have the same or more firepower. 

By the way, ps4 phantom 46pt.. ps6 wedge 52.. same stats. Hmmm... 😏

🤨 Shall we stick to generics for closer comparisons? Especially since you're going cross faction:

Red Squadron VeteranSigma Squadron AceBlack Sun Ace

Hmm. 1 more initiative, stress less double repositioning ("flying head on"? Lol.), basically effortless double defensive mods and the ability to double the base def dice for what? 3-4 more points and 1 hp less?

How about the dials:

ManeuversManeuversManeuvers

How much is the Phantom again? 46? Ya...

Sigma Squadron Ace=Black Sun Enforcer?

Riiight… 😑

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@Hiemfire so basically are you saying that the phantom generics are broken? 

Shall we talk about the not-so-broken 1-bank of the star vipers? 
Shall we talk about the not-so-undercosted pilot ability of Wedge which is always on (stygium array is not if stressed)
Shall we talk about the X-Wings'  double sided configuration that allows focus AND reposition? 
Shall we consider the gunner slot (lol) that allows nothing but Fifth Brother to be carried on board? 

No, the 4 Phantoms are broken. /sarcasm

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2 hours ago, william1134 said:

For me it was too much by increasing the price of pro torps and redline.. combined it just made him unviable considering he can be killed very very quickly. Its a shame as I have only recently finished off my custom tie punisher... sobs

 

ts6D1FI.jpg

Maybe from 9 to 12 points for torps is good.

But considering redline has 2 dices of primary attack, 8 points increasing was huge and excessive

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Did you really just make the argument that i4 phantoms are not too good for their price because Xwings can pay a red die to get focus+boost, or because starvipers have a bendy roll?

I think, considering all things, Juke on them takes them from being in the mix (arguably priced correctly or over a bit/under a bit depending on your bias) to a great squad with multiples. 

Seems Juke is what makes them great tournament fodder; without? IDTS 

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2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I think, considering all things, Juke on them takes them from being in the mix (arguably priced correctly or over a bit/under a bit depending on your bias) to a great squad with multiples. 

Seems Juke is what makes them great tournament fodder; without? IDTS 

If that were true then the i3 would be correct at equal points as a red squadron veteran. The imdaar doesn't benefit from juke. And yet I doubt that the free evade on nearly every turn should be at the same cost as an extra hull.

That ignores the massive reposition and better dial. Clearly something is a bit off, no?

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Regarding phantoms, the fact that we saw the number of lists at Chicago that we did would tell me that they're priced "aggressively." To me, it's not that an individual phantom with Juke is broken. It's good, but it can dealt with. It's when you get three with Juke, plus a fourth with Crack, that things can get a little problematic. I don't have that stats here at work, but I believe the combined record of the phantom builds at Chicago was around 65-21. My numbers may be slughty off. But the phantom players had a pretty good winning percentage.

I don't know that anything needs to be done, but my guess is that some point adjusting is probably on the way. I played around with YASB, and it looks like one answer *could* be upping the Sigma by two. This would leave 41 points (assuming a list of three with Jukes), which is not enough for adding a fourth phantom. I don't think Juke should be increased, as it's not being used much now other than on phantoms and defenders. I also don't believe the Imdaars need to be increased either. We'll see what FFG eventually decides to do.

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