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Norsehound

Am I the only one not looking forward to Clone Wars?

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Nope not the only one, not that interested in Clone Wars, they would try to rush out waves if they did it, but it would likely end any releases for the existing factions. To me it would seem a separate game even if they balanced them against the existing factions, it would give them more design space if they don't. I don't believe that there is a massive pool of players that will rush to buy into the game because clone wars is what they have been waiting for, more likely it will be a sub set of the existing players and a scattering of players that see their favourite ship/era. If it was just Armada I doubt it would happen, but with two other systems and plenty of art etc already in the bank they just might, how well it goes down will probable depend on the quality of the product. It would be easier for them to do FO/Resistance but that doesn't seem to be their focus ATM, and not that keen to see them do that either.   

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4 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Neither faction gets close to everything they flew.  But alternate cardboard would allow the utilization of the models and new ship choices.  The variants would probably be different, but that's for balance, so it's not like any faction would be "missing out" when they wouldn't have received it anyway.

As i mentioned in the OP, one solution I'd be happy with (which would be pretty novel actually) is have a prequel faction on one side and a GCW faction on the other. Many of these ships never really had A/B I/II versions defined in the lore- they are that way because FFG needed something to put on the other side. Makes sense to me that a Venator would come in Republic / Empire variations.

This could be released beside an expansion pack for cardboard that converts over existing ships into a Republic faction. Maybe they'd come with cards to finally help the VSD, since that, the Pelta, and the ARQ I think are the only clone war vets we have in the game right now.

Still that's on the hope that future expansions would have a variant for the core factions. I wouldn't be down if the majority of a faction's ships are locked behind a faction wall.

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On 3/29/2019 at 1:19 PM, Weyoun42 said:

I will never not want to play this. (Black dice for days in this pic.)

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This is why I want Clone Wars in the game.  For all the great storytelling of the expanded universe, the PT and Clone Wars TV show ships and fleets engaging in direct, prolonged combat in a way the original trilogy never managed.  And yes, we have a few recent updates tot he GCW from the Rebels and Resistance TV shows, but the actual factual truth is that The Clone Wars and the PT showed us more fleet scale combat in several individual episodes than was shows in A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi COMBINED. 

There is just so much more to do with the Clone Wars ships.  New ship designs, experimental weapons, clouds of squadrons, iconic characters.  The Prequel Trilogy films aren't well made, but you can tell that immense effort was put into making the vehicles look as iconic as any Imperial Star Destroyer or Mon Cal Cruiser or X-Wing or TIE Fighter.  I love the Dr Aphra comic book, but I simply don't care about seeing her or 0-0-0 on the table as much as I'd love to see Mace Windu, Asajj Ventriss, Rex Fives, or Cody.

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On 3/30/2019 at 5:02 PM, Norsehound said:

Wave 8
Brahatok (Dornean) gunship
- The fighting flotilla everyone imagines, maybe with a commander to help rebel small/medium ships get some leverage over large ships. No red dice out the sides, two dice AA, no scatter.
Arrestor-Class Cruiser - Speed 2 dual fleet support slot ship with an alternate for Fleet Commands. Another speed 2 cruiser, likely with upgrades to help out speed 2 vessels.

Wave 9
MC85 Class Cruiser - Distinctly cross-compatible with Rebellion forces since it's technically an alliance ship. Introduces a new slot specifically for advanced TFA/TLJ era equipment. Following the convention set down with X-Wing.
Resurgent-Class Cruiser - Also distinctly cross-compatible. Somewhere between the low-end SSDs and the ISD-II. Super carrier with a battery weaker than an ISD.

Wave 10
Free Virgillia class Corvette - Small ship for the Rebellion/Resistance that also utilizes a special tech slot. Black dice close-range attacker with double ordnance modeled after the Gladiator.
Maxima-A Class Cruiser - Small ship for the Empire/First Order that utilizes the special tech slot. Maxima is Empire prototype, Maxima-A is first order. Beefier ship modeled after the MC30.
The Resistance era fighters - 2x of T-70 X-Wings, SF-17 star fortresses, RZ-2 A-Wing, Resistance Transport, TIE/FO, TIE/SF, First Order TIE Interceptor, AAL-1971/9.1 Troop Transport - New Fighters to shake up

If a new media production of some kind has a rebel ship before leaning into TFA/TLJ content, it could be presented opposite of the Imperial Support Vessel (Speed 2 broadside attack ship at medium size, coming with more upgrades to resist rebel fighter supremacy). There's always re-printing rebel ships with new paint schemes too, pulling a Chimaera.

While these are going on there's also undoubtedly going to be other ships and media showing up that could jump in between the different waves. Point being you start with factions that are designed to integrate with the current ones, then split off when that subfaction population is large enough to do so.

Wave 8:  Snore.  I can't even visualize what those ships look like, which doesn't bode well for casual fans.  Those ships certainly wouldn't bring in new players the way Clone Wars will.

Wave 9+: And now you're jumping to a different era anyways.  Which isn't surprising, the GCW era is pretty well mined for ships at this point.

Really, I have no idea why anyone would be against the Clone Wars releases coming up.  Even for someone like me who doesn't really have any desire to pick any up, I can see how it will bring in a lot of new players who were waiting for exactly this moment.  And it's the perfect time to do it, because there's really not any significant GCW ships left to tap.

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12 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Wave 8:  Snore.  I can't even visualize what those ships look like, which doesn't bode well for casual fans.  Those ships certainly wouldn't bring in new players the way Clone Wars will.

Wave 9+: And now you're jumping to a different era anyways.  Which isn't surprising, the GCW era is pretty well mined for ships at this point.

Really, I have no idea why anyone would be against the Clone Wars releases coming up.  Even for someone like me who doesn't really have any desire to pick any up, I can see how it will bring in a lot of new players who were waiting for exactly this moment.  And it's the perfect time to do it, because there's really not any significant GCW ships left to tap.

Just because you can't visualize these ships doesn't mean other's cant. I'd happily buy an Arrestor, and people have been talking about attack flotillas for a while now.

There are sideways expansions the game could have taken. I wouldn't mind a space platform expansion to make space stations more interesting. They could have used a wave to start re-printing some of the ships in dire straits... like a new nebulon ship pack (which they can use for a ship that needs variants for once, not more powerful variants for the most popular ship in the game already).

I'll grant that going to the Clone Wars is obvious, and I'm not surprised this is the future of Armada given it's relative popularity with a lot of the fans. It was a long shot to hope for something more interesting, but now that it's coming let's get it over with. At least I can enjoy putting those dinosaur designs in their place with newer GCW technology.

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I'll be honest while I know that you will be able to mix generations of ships (aka Imperials fighting Separatist) and they will have rules that make it mechanically fine, I am thinking that thematically it will take a lot away from the game having different time periods. For me it is like just because you could make a game that balance WWI forces against WWII and have it be a fun game doesn't mean that thematically or aesthetically it looks as good when compared to sticking to one period. And yes I know that is a large generality purposefully ignoring the large amount of WWI tech used during WWII it just was the first example that popped into my head. Maybe I should have said WWI vs Korea?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chamberlin said:

I'll be honest while I know that you will be able to mix generations of ships (aka Imperials fighting Separatist) and they will have rules that make it mechanically fine, I am thinking that thematically it will take a lot away from the game having different time periods. For me it is like just because you could make a game that balance WWI forces against WWII and have it be a fun game doesn't mean that thematically or aesthetically it looks as good when compared to sticking to one period. And yes I know that is a large generality purposefully ignoring the large amount of WWI tech used during WWII it just was the first example that popped into my head. Maybe I should have said WWI vs Korea?

No, your original analogy is great.  Because there's a 10-20 odd year time span between TCW and GCW, and like WW2, GCW uses tech from the previous war all over the place.  So you could use a different comparison, but I doubt it would be nearly so accurate.

Which isn't to say repainting stuff for the GCW is unreasonable...

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Chamberlin said:

I'll be honest while I know that you will be able to mix generations of ships (aka Imperials fighting Separatist) and they will have rules that make it mechanically fine, I am thinking that thematically it will take a lot away from the game having different time periods. For me it is like just because you could make a game that balance WWI forces against WWII and have it be a fun game doesn't mean that thematically or aesthetically it looks as good when compared to sticking to one period. And yes I know that is a large generality purposefully ignoring the large amount of WWI tech used during WWII it just was the first example that popped into my head. Maybe I should have said WWI vs Korea?

Star War tech inexplicably evolves super slowly. So it’s less like the tech from WW1 against WW2 tech and more like tech from the attack on Pearl to the tech at Normandy. Sure, some improvements. Enough to favor the troops at Normandy but not overwhelmingly  

 

Star Wars seems to cycle between design philosophies over time more than improving tech. Venators were design primarily for squadron combat. They took advantage of having clearly superior pilots and starfighters and ran the advantage home. 

 

Once CIS fell, the sheer number of enemy starfighters and ships the new Empire faced dropped dramatically. So the ISD is the evolution of design philosophy. It is now designed with far less fighters which don’t need to be so high of quality. It gains speed, a bit of capital firepower, and IIRC carrying ground troops itself. An entire system pacification platform, not a fleet ship.

Edited by Church14

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On 3/30/2019 at 5:05 AM, ElizLestrad said:

The only thing that would have gotten me more excited than Clone Wars would have been Mandalorian/Jedi Civil War period.  I so would love to run a Mandalorian fleet or a Sith fleet commanded by Darth Revan.

Or indeed a Jedi fleet commanded by Revan

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2 hours ago, Chamberlin said:

I'll be honest while I know that you will be able to mix generations of ships (aka Imperials fighting Separatist) and they will have rules that make it mechanically fine, I am thinking that thematically it will take a lot away from the game having different time periods. For me it is like just because you could make a game that balance WWI forces against WWII and have it be a fun game doesn't mean that thematically or aesthetically it looks as good when compared to sticking to one period. And yes I know that is a large generality purposefully ignoring the large amount of WWI tech used during WWII it just was the first example that popped into my head. Maybe I should have said WWI vs Korea?

That's up to the players isn't it.  If you don't want to play Rebel vs Republic then don't, just like you can choose not to play Rebel vs Rebel.

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One interesting question I would like to see answered is how republic ships will be scaled against the VSD.

The VSD is/was supposed to be their late-war contemporary... the Victory was maintained in the Imperial lineup as Venators and Acclaimators were retired in favor of the Imperial. Given the VSD's, I daresay, dismal performance in Armada... what does it say about VEN and ACC performance in comparison?

While I would expect the Venator to be locked at speed 2 with about as many red dice as the VSD (in spite of being a large ship), I expect it will magically out-perform the VSD because it's going to be the Republic Large ship, and it's something they have to use against ISDs for the sake of gameplay balance. I'm gonna be mad if somehow the Republic and CIS outperform the GCW ships. Not only is this soft enforcement of pushing players to buy the new factions, but it's unthematic.

If we had sequel ships I'd be more forgiving of their overperformance... but I'd expect a suitable increase in cost and rarity by comparison. Those ships being superior makes sense from a thematic perspective (and gameplay, keeping them rarer and more exclusive).

I'm also expecting Republic commanders to be overpowered, almost to the point of broken. But if they're high in points along with high-costs of their capital ships and fighters, hoepfully Republic commanders will be forced to do a lot with their expensive equipment and end up with exploitable gaps in their lists.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 5:08 PM, Norell said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but these days ISDs are still in service within the Galactic Alliance and the Imperial Remnant. :P

Technically all this happened a "long time ago in a galaxy far far away" so doubt any of them are in use. 

Edited by fistfulofforce

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One thing that confuses me is the timing,

Episode IX is released this december and it was a perfect time to release new waves for the new era ( Resurgent, MC-85, Mandator IV and what ever ship the new movie brings in) and it would have been easier to integrate with current fleets.

 

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9 minutes ago, LostFleet said:

One thing that confuses me is the timing,

Episode IX is released this december and it was a perfect time to release new waves for the new era ( Resurgent, MC-85, Mandator IV and what ever ship the new movie brings in) and it would have been easier to integrate with current fleets.

 

They touched on this a little bit during the Q&A. For Rogue One & Solo they received earlier access to the movie material for making content vs very little early access to the main saga films. 

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26 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

One interesting question I would like to see answered is how republic ships will be scaled against the VSD.

The VSD is/was supposed to be their late-war contemporary... the Victory was maintained in the Imperial lineup as Venators and Acclaimators were retired in favor of the Imperial. Given the VSD's, I daresay, dismal performance in Armada... what does it say about VEN and ACC performance in comparison?

While I would expect the Venator to be locked at speed 2 with about as many red dice as the VSD (in spite of being a large ship), I expect it will magically out-perform the VSD because it's going to be the Republic Large ship, and it's something they have to use against ISDs for the sake of gameplay balance. I'm gonna be mad if somehow the Republic and CIS outperform the GCW ships. Not only is this soft enforcement of pushing players to buy the new factions, but it's unthematic.

If we had sequel ships I'd be more forgiving of their overperformance... but I'd expect a suitable increase in cost and rarity by comparison. Those ships being superior makes sense from a thematic perspective (and gameplay, keeping them rarer and more exclusive).

I'm also expecting Republic commanders to be overpowered, almost to the point of broken. But if they're high in points along with high-costs of their capital ships and fighters, hoepfully Republic commanders will be forced to do a lot with their expensive equipment and end up with exploitable gaps in their lists.

I wouldn't hard-compare the Venator to the Victory too much. Not just because the Victory isn't canon anymore (because by that logic, so long as the Venator isn't the same as a Imperial-class, it's all good) but mainly because the Victory is a ship developed for Wave 1 of Armada and the Venator will be releasing after 7 (hopefully 8 ) waves of development and learning from mistakes. It's taken several waves and a few key upgrades to bring the Victory up to more playable standards since it was pushed out of the game pretty heavily in Wave 2, but the Venator doesn't have to start off as bad as the Victory once was. But that doesn't mean the Venator or any of the other Clone Wars ships will come out and immediately be able to take down an Imperial-class with no effort. It'll all come down to how well someone uses it in the fleet.

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5 hours ago, Norsehound said:

While I would expect the Venator to be locked at speed 2 with about as many red dice as the VSD (in spite of being a large ship), I expect it will magically out-perform the VSD because it's going to be the Republic Large ship, and it's something they have to use against ISDs for the sake of gameplay balance.

Gameplay balance doesn't mean they must have a ship that can take on an ISD one on one, if costed appropriately.  Presumably for same cost as an ISD you'll take a Venator and a load of squadrons.

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4 hours ago, LordCola said:

What? The VSD appears in the novel Tarkin and in somewhere in the Vader comic. 

Solo was a very good opportunity for Victory to make an appearance or even Rebels ( I wish moviemakers were playing Armada too)

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3 hours ago, Tirion said:

I'm confused by people saying the don't want clone wars because it may mean no gcw stuff for a while. That is different from the current situation how?

Not at all. But they do not like the current situation either... 

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Posted (edited)

Venator could be a large ship with hull points and defence similar to a Vic, with better squadron command and supporting upgrades. Could be slightly more broadside focused than forward facing. I'd put it in the 85-90 point range. Battle carrier rather than battleship, and in one on one fight could be equivalent or slightly overpowered by a Victory. Seems like a nice balance at first glance.

 

I personally hope CW era equipment will be cheaper than GCW but weaker. This helps us have more on the table to recreate those awesome battles and helps with the power perception against newer vessels like ISDs. The Republic would have great officers and crew, between Jedi and clones. CIS would be the cheap all around swarm faction. They would have a few key pricey chars and crew though, such as various Sith and their elites like Super Tactical droids.

Edited by TheBigLev

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, TheBigLev said:

Venator could be a large ship with hull points and defence similar to a Vic, with better squadron command and supporting upgrades. Could be slightly more broadside focused than forward facing. I'd put it in the 85-90 point range. Battle carrier rather than battleship, and in one on one fight could be equivalent or slightly overpowered by a Victory. Seems like a nice balance at first glance.

I want them to be low enough cost to be able to run 3. Basically, make the standard fleet for GAR in a lot of the Clone Wars. 270 for 3 (90/ship) is a pretty nice spot

Edited by Church14

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