Anakin and Obi-Wan: bad idea or the worst idea?

[FisherSpassky 33]

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Anakin Skywalker - 107
    •Anakin Skywalker - Hero of the Republic (60)
        •R4-P44 (5)
        Supernatural Reflexes (32)
        Calibrated Laser Targeting (10)

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Obi-Wan Kenobi - 90
    •Obi-Wan Kenobi - Guardian of the Republic (53)
        •R4-P17 (5)
        Supernatural Reflexes (24)
        Calibrated Laser Targeting (8)

Total: 197/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I just want to run 197 of insanely slippery Jedis until I'm amazing at flying them. But, realistically, I'm going to get tabled, what, 80% of the time? 

[Jo Jo 4,481]

You need a larger bid. You need  have to move last.

You only have two ships, so you need to add more firepower. CLT is okay, but not as easy to get constant bullseyes in practice. You could drop the droids and put Ani in a Delta and have a 5 point bid.

If I was going to be crazy and run two Jedis, I would run these two:

Anakin Skywalker (60)
Supernatural Reflexes (32)
R2 Astromech (4)
Delta-7B (18)

Mace Windu (46)
Supernatural Reflexes (16)
Delta-7B (16)
Total: 192

But yeah, good luck facing most lists.

Edited March 29 by Jo Jo

[FisherSpassky 33]

7 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

You need a larger bid. You need  have to move last.

You only have two ships, so you need to add more firepower. CLT is okay, but not as easy to get constant bullseyes in practice. You could drop the droids and put Ani in a Delta and have a 5 point bid.

If I was going to be crazy and run two Jedis, I would run these two:

Anakin Skywalker (60)
Supernatural Reflexes (32)
R2 Astromech (4)
Delta-7B (18)

Mace Windu (46)
Supernatural Reflexes (16)
Delta-7B (16)
Total: 192

But yeah, good luck facing most lists.

I feel you, but if I'm putting around 50 points into Supernatural, I expect to have to line up bullseyes. You're right about the bid though, I'd just rather drop R4-P17 off Obi-Wan, or drop both droids to regular R4, to get the bid down. 

[kempokid 838]

33 minutes ago, FisherSpassky said:

I feel you, but if I'm putting around 50 points into Supernatural, I expect to have to line up bullseyes. You're right about the bid though, I'd just rather drop R4-P17 off Obi-Wan, or drop both droids to regular R4, to get the bid down. 

I'm with you. I'm opting for CLT on my Sprites as well to focus on that bullseye firing. With a bid and high initiative, it's still going to be difficult but not impossible to get bullseyes consistently.

But honestly, I think if you want to be amazing at flying them you should go with a leaner version to fit three of them in a list. You'll learn their behavior more by flying a higher number of the ship than the lower number of the ship. 

For reference, here's my Triple Sprites list

 

[FisherSpassky 33]

I agree that three Sprites is the way to go. And I really like that there seem to be any number of versions of that triple that'll work really well. Honestly, I can't remember the last time we got a ship with so many interesting pilots and builds--which is why I'm super excited about this one. 

My experience is that leaner is often better in X Wing in general, so you're probably right there, too. (When you have a HUGE bag of tricks, each one becomes less likely to be used, I think.) So my "realistic" version of running OWK and Anakin together strips them down to just CLT, and throws in Torrents Tucker and Oddball to fly together as flankers. 

But I'm going to try Anakin in God Mode at least once... and probably first. 

[FisherSpassky 33]

This is my three-ship version, but it needs some thought: 

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Anakin Skywalker - 75
    •Anakin Skywalker - Hero of the Republic (60)
        R4 Astromech (2)
        Heightened Perception (3)
        Calibrated Laser Targeting (10)

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Mace Windu - 57
    •Mace Windu - Harsh Traditionalist (46)
        R4 Astromech (2)
        Heightened Perception (3)
        Calibrated Laser Targeting (6)

Delta-7 Aethersprite - •Obi-Wan Kenobi - 66
    •Obi-Wan Kenobi - Guardian of the Republic (53)
        R4 Astromech (2)
        Heightened Perception (3)
        Calibrated Laser Targeting (8)

Total: 198/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Edited March 29 by FisherSpassky
mistaken post

[kempokid 838]

I'd drop Heightened Percpetion from Ani. He's already i6 so he's at the top of the shooting order. Even if he's destroyed by another i6, he'll have the simultaneous fire rule on his side.

With the spare points, it might be worth upgrading HP on the other two to predictive shot. A) with CLT, you're already needing to line up bullseye shots, and B) it makes their two-die primary a little more likely to deal damage. If you're rolling two dice, and adding a focus, it's possible you still only have one or two hits, even in Bullseye, so predictive shot can help you against high agility ships.

That still gives you 197 points, which is a decent bid. Just something to consider. Other than that, as you said, there's a great deal of variety on any three named pilots for the Sprites. Just gotta find what works for you.

[Rangor 183]

CLT is a trap. A traaaaap

[kempokid 838]

16 minutes ago, Rangor said:

CLT is a trap. A traaaaap

How many games have you played with it to make this statement? Genuinely curious.

[Boba Fatt 88]

53 minutes ago, kempokid said:

How many games have you played with it to make this statement? Genuinely curious.

Me too.  I've played 4 games so far and it has come into play in each one of those games.  It's beautiful on Kenobi.

[Estarriol 1,550]

Played it. It’s fun. It isn’t a thing. R2, CLT, SR on both.

[Stryker359 169]

 

On 3/29/2019 at 10:14 PM, kempokid said:

How many games have you played with it to make this statement? Genuinely curious.

Personally, I've had little/no success with it in 10 games, but that's only 10 games. It needs further study.

23 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Played it. It’s fun. It isn’t a thing. R2, CLT, SR on both.

Very much this. Flown the same list; it's a lot of fun. Fly it well, you'll lose but enjoy yourself. Fly it badly, you'll probably be claiming Republic are terrible before the final dice get rolled.

[FisherSpassky 33]

On 3/29/2019 at 5:57 PM, Rangor said:

CLT is a trap. A traaaaap

For the last few days I've been seeing this repeated on lots of different Sprite-based posts. It feels like echo-chamber stuff at this point (folks that don't love CLT repeating a line that succinctly states their critique).

But no one spells out what the "trap" is.  Closest I've read is that it isn't great on low initiative pilots; that makes some sense, but it's not a trap so much as just a little ineffective. 

What am I missing? Is there some post--now FFG Forums canon--that details the CLT Trap? Or are people just being dittoheads? 

[Nohwear 114]

You could always try it out for yourself.  Just create a backup list with out them and see which dose you better.  I am guessing that the reason they are seen as a trap is mainly because it is very hard to get bullseye arc, especially on small ships.

[Tott 16]

I've played a few games with them now and the deltas can get a ship in bullseye a good few times each game, its a lot easier with Saesee Tiin as well. whether or not you have any focus or force tokens do do anything with it is another question. :p

[Rangor 183]

1 hour ago, FisherSpassky said:

For the last few days I've been seeing this repeated on lots of different Sprite-based posts. It feels like echo-chamber stuff at this point (folks that don't love CLT repeating a line that succinctly states their critique).

But no one spells out what the "trap" is.  Closest I've read is that it isn't great on low initiative pilots; that makes some sense, but it's not a trap so much as just a little ineffective. 

What am I missing? Is there some post--now FFG Forums canon--that details the CLT Trap? Or are people just being dittoheads? 

I wrote a lot about this, but its up to everyone to make their own experience

 Why its a trap in two words: opportunity cost. 

3 dice attack from 7B is always good, CLT just in Bullseye. 

For a high Ini Ace, archieving the bullseye isnt hard to do.

But you pay for that with a lot of possible opportunity costs.

- doing barrel roll / boost for force, then focus for an action, which is not as consistent as taking TL as an action as high level 7B aces often can do. TL sometimes stays on target allowing more consistent turns following.

- you are more likely to manouver predictable, into killzones/blocks. You either go for that Bullseye or your damage output is too low. 

- your opponent can abuse obstacles so that either you get an obstructed BE shot or an unobstructed low damage shot

- you will be facing situations in which you either go for a BE shot or a good board position for following turns, not both.

 

I experienced all those downsides playing CLT and playing 7B against CLT, abusing their disadvantage in a really bad way..

Maybe my opponents and i didnt figure out how to play CLT proper yet, but my firm believe is that the point cost of CLT is always to high. On Anakin, i would never go for CLT, even it was 6 points instead of 10. Cause 7B lets you fly so much more flexible and sting like a bee WHILE evading like a butterfly, it doesnt force you to chose only one like CLT feels a lot of times to be doing.

If it was 40 point for a CLT jedi, i could see a 5 Jedi list with CLT beeing succesful though.

Edited April 5 by Rangor

[admat 449]

I'll try this eventually:

- Anakin (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
- Obi-Wan (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
184 points

I'll also want to experiment with Supernatural Reflexes (which is most probably better on Anakin at least), but this can be very tanky/nightmarish to face... if there's no time limit that is, so a fun game - not a tournament.

Edited April 5 by admat

[Ryuneke 307]

1 minute ago, admat said:

Brilliant Evasion

[theBitterFig 6,080]

When playing around with Obi/Anakin lists, there are a few thigns I keep coming back to.

• I keep wanting to go one Supernatural Reflexes not two.  Mostly this is for bid.
• I kind of want a split between CLT and 7B.
  • I don't have a problem with CLT, but having one ship which doesn't need to care about bullseye and can take a full arc is nice.
  • From a few games with CLT Obi, I felt like I've sometimes had a choice between keeping Bullseye, or getting out of arc.  7B probably allows a few more 3-dice shots in some of those cases.
  • But a 7B Aethersprite is going to take damage.  Someone rolls 3 hits, and you don't have any chance to avoid damage, and a 2-ship list probably needs to highroll a little, so I want at least one 3-green ship.
  • But I can't figure out which pilot gets which one.
• If I have a Mod slot, I kind of want Afterburners in it.  Mobility and Range Control seem vital in low-ship-count lists.
• I have a preference for R2 Astromech.  I feel like the regen is good for both staying alive, and staying above half-points.  The various red-move Astromechs seem handy, but I'm a sucker for regen, particularly on a CLT Aethersprite.  Just feels really cost effective to get 2 shields for 4 points, when it'd cost 16 for those shield upgrades.  Even on 7B, the fact that upgrades rely on base-agility rather than adjusted makes Shield Upgrade extra expensive.

 

• Minimal Anakin:
  • Obi with SNR, 7B, R2, Afterburners (104)
  • Anakin with CLT, R2 (74)
  • 22 Point bid is a lot.  This one kind of cribs from the Polish 2 T-65 Luke/Wedge lists, where Init 5 Luke is wicked stacked, and while Init 6 Wedge is kinda big, he's clearly an order of magnitude less.  Anakin should be a threat, sort of Soontir Fel with the Force and Regen, but Obi is the massive ship, making choices harder.  Part of the premise is that Anakin probably is a good enough arc dodger on his own, but Obi could use the extra unpredictability of SNR.
  • Part of why the Polish list works is that Wedge in one of those Double-X-Wing lists has Proton Torpedoes and his nasty pilot ability.  He can get a pretty hefty nuke in before dying.  Seems like it might be harder for this list to trade Anakin for 75 points, and Obi-Wan isn't going to be as tanky as Luke with R2-D2, so it might not work.
• Even-ish points:
  • Obi with SNR, CLT, R2 (89 points)
  • Anakin with 7B, R2, Afterburners (88 points)
  • So a pretty hefty 23 point bid.  This means that either ship protects at least 111 points, and both have regen.  This lets non-SNR Anakin be a bit more flexible with his positioning due to the full 3-dice of 7B, and trusts that Obi can SNR into his bullseyes.
• Not-Quite-As-All-In Anakin:
  • Obi with 7B, R2, Afterburners (80)
  • Anakin with SNR, CLT, R2 (106)
  • Bid 14 should still give you the choice in a lot of matchups.  Anakin with SNR is just going to be an unpredictable menace, but Obi-Wan should still be pretty hefty and threatening.
• All-In Anakin:
  • Obi with CLT, R2 (65)
  • Anakin with SNR, 7B, R2, Afterburners (120)
  • Bid 15 seems like a minimum for a 120 point ship like this fully loaded Anakin.  Obi almost becomes an afterthought, but he can protect as much as 80 point, and with his Regen it doesn't seem too hard.  Meanwhile, that Anakin can do ****ing everything.

[FisherSpassky 33]

On 4/5/2019 at 7:55 AM, Rangor said:

I wrote a lot about this, but its up to everyone to make their own experience

 Why its a trap in two words: opportunity cost. 

3 dice attack from 7B is always good, CLT just in Bullseye. 

For a high Ini Ace, archieving the bullseye isnt hard to do.

But you pay for that with a lot of possible opportunity costs.

- doing barrel roll / boost for force, then focus for an action, which is not as consistent as taking TL as an action as high level 7B aces often can do. TL sometimes stays on target allowing more consistent turns following.

- you are more likely to manouver predictable, into killzones/blocks. You either go for that Bullseye or your damage output is too low. 

- your opponent can abuse obstacles so that either you get an obstructed BE shot or an unobstructed low damage shot

- you will be facing situations in which you either go for a BE shot or a good board position for following turns, not both.

 

I experienced all those downsides playing CLT and playing 7B against CLT, abusing their disadvantage in a really bad way..

Maybe my opponents and i didnt figure out how to play CLT proper yet, but my firm believe is that the point cost of CLT is always to high. On Anakin, i would never go for CLT, even it was 6 points instead of 10. Cause 7B lets you fly so much more flexible and sting like a bee WHILE evading like a butterfly, it doesnt force you to chose only one like CLT feels a lot of times to be doing.

If it was 40 point for a CLT jedi, i could see a 5 Jedi list with CLT beeing succesful though.

Thanks for this excellent summary! The field research on how CLT can make you and your opponent fly differently, especially, is really useful. 

I'd still argue the semantics of "trap" are incorrect, or, at least,  no more correct than for CLT than any other card. In other words, there's an opportunity cost to pay for running 7B—critically you're rolling one fewer green die every time you're shot at. 

[AlexW 2,896]

On 4/5/2019 at 7:49 AM, admat said:

I'll try this eventually:

- Anakin (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
- Obi-Wan (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
184 points

I'll also want to experiment with Supernatural Reflexes (which is most probably better on Anakin at least), but this can be very tanky/nightmarish to face... if there's no time limit that is, so a fun game - not a tournament.

I generally think BE is not a very efficient card, but I think it's a really worthless card on Obi-wan (and maybe in lists that have him if you manage force well).

[K13R4N 311]

On 4/5/2019 at 1:49 PM, admat said:

I'll try this eventually:

- Anakin (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
- Obi-Wan (Brilliant Evasion, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B, Shield Upgrade)
184 points

I'll also want to experiment with Supernatural Reflexes (which is most probably better on Anakin at least), but this can be very tanky/nightmarish to face... if there's no time limit that is, so a fun game - not a tournament.

I guy went 5-1 with that list at a HT. It looks like a lot of hit and run and BE definitely helps you keep as much force for offence. I can imagine in a 2 ship list you need as much defence as possible. 

I do like the look of this list aswell because each ship has a potential 3 hull and 6 shields! 

 

[admat 449]

7 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

I guy went 5-1 with that list at a HT. It looks like a lot of hit and run and BE definitely helps you keep as much force for offence. I can imagine in a 2 ship list you need as much defence as possible. 

I do like the look of this list aswell because each ship has a potential 3 hull and 6 shields! 

 

I also made this version:

- Anakin (Supernatural Reflexes, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B)
- Obi-Wan (Heightened Perception, R2 Astromech, Delta-7B)
191 points

I have yet to play either, but looking forward to try them. I've been playing variants of Mace/Ahsoka/Wolffe mostly so far.

[Ryuneke 307]

All of those lists are looking super interesting and tough to fly. I think if you're invest some time into, it'll be an awesome experience.

[Maui. 2,299]

Try Sense on Obi-wan instead of SNR. You'd be surprised at how often it comes in handy.

 

EDIT - to be clear the point of this is to free up points to get some 7B action going

Edited April 18 by Maui.