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Sprues Advantages/Disadvantages

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2 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

I have no horse in the preferred minis race, but you're condescending as ****. 

I'd also like to say, while the designers seem happy they have the technical tools to move to harder plastic and sprues (since the thin, mechanical details of droids would be difficult otherwise) this game was explicitly started with accessibility in mind. So to go all high and mighty about "us mini gamers have such more refined tastes than you board game plebs" is not only an ugly look in general (in my opinion as someone who doesn't necessarily feel strongly about either material) and probably gonna agitate quite a lot of the legion fanbase. Don't appeal to tradition, neither, that's a fallacy. 

Cutting models off sprues and gluing them together is barely more effort than the assembly you already have to do with the existing models. Thats not a notable accessibility barrier. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, manoftomorrow010 said:
To sprue, or not to sprue, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

I have a different Shakespeare play in mind: the Tempest. And this one is in a teapot.

Edited by Sharkbelly

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5 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Cutting models off sprues and gluing them together is barely more effort than the assembly you already have to do with the existing models. Thats not a notable accessibility barrier. 

It involves cutting plastic, whereas the current model involves no cutting. Ergo it’s adding the potential for harm both to the model and the user that were not already present.

That is, by any measure, a bigger, more notable barrier.

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3 hours ago, Derrault said:

It involves cutting plastic, whereas the current model involves no cutting. Ergo it’s adding the potential for harm both to the model and the user that were not already present.

That is, by any measure, a bigger, more notable barrier.

I get that you don't like sprues, but you are portraying them as a severe challenge. They are very easy to snip correctly.  I have cut out many pieces from a sprue and have never damaged one, nor have I ever damaged myself. You are making it sound like people are destroying pieces and losing chunks of flesh right and left, which in my experience is simply not true.

A tool for snipping pieces off a sprue costs 5 dollars and is as easy if not easier to use than a pair of scissors.  In my mind that does not constitute much of a barrier. Is it a bigger barrier?  Yes.  Is it a significant barrier? No.

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3 hours ago, Derrault said:

It involves cutting plastic, whereas the current model involves no cutting. Ergo it’s adding the potential for harm both to the model and the user that were not already present.

That is, by any measure, a bigger, more notable barrier.

I'm wondering if you have any experience with model work... Outside of dropping simple game figures on a table. Have you ever built a model car kit? Or a plane or anything? 

I ask only to try to offer helpful advice.  I'm not trying to be a d!ck, here. If you use a sharp x-acto knife (or any razor knife) the material should cut through with minimal effort. If you hold the sprue against a table surface, preferably protected by a cutting mat, there is no risk to your human fingers. If removing a small part that might eject from the table by cutting off the sprue, drape a washcloth over the blade to catch the tiny part.

With just a little practice, you can safely and easily remove parts from frames.  Just give it a try, you'll probably find that it's not a big deal. Hardly a barrier to accessibility. 

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16 hours ago, Dr Lucky said:

You realize you don't have to use plastic glue with styrene minis, right? If you prefer super glue, you can keep using it, which eliminates two of your Cons.

Fair... I tried that with my Robotech minis, but for some reason thy seemed to take for ever to dry despite using CA.

*shurgs helplessly*

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35 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

So are the clones are not going to be on sprues, but they are going back and making all the GCW kits sprue kits? I do not understand the reasoning behind this. I would want the added customization sprues add for clones too! :(

From what I've heard, it's the commanders that are getting the extra customization while the corp are not. The droids are being put on sprues to help prevent warping of the plastic due to the slim parts.

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31 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

So are the clones are not going to be on sprues, but they are going back and making all the GCW kits sprue kits? I do not understand the reasoning behind this. I would want the added customization sprues add for clones too! :(

I think the point was that the Separatist units have so many long, thin bits that it was impossible to make them at an acceptable level of quality in the old material, so they were designed for sprues from the start. At some point, we'll start to see the new releases for all the armies switch to sprues as FFG's sculpting team and production methods adjust to accommodate the new molding techniques.

At some point after that, when the sculpting folks have the bandwidth to redesign old kits rather than design new ones, FFG will start slowly converting all old style models (for Rebels, Imperials, and Republic) to hard plastic on sprues. That could be quite a ways in the future.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

From what I've heard, it's the commanders that are getting the extra customization while the corp are not. The droids are being put on sprues to help prevent warping of the plastic due to the slim parts.

So commanders (that you get ONE of them to play each army and are UNIQUE) can be diferent.... But corps (that you need at least 3 and can perfectly be the same unit) will be exactly the same???? I don't get it... 

Edited by Tubb

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4 minutes ago, Tubb said:

So commanders (that you get ONE of them to play each army and are UNIQUE) can be diferent.... But corps (that you need at least 3 and can perfectly be the same unit) will be exactly the same???? I don't get it... 

Understand that this is currently how I understand this development. Until FFG shows that they are multi pose corp or not, we don't know for certain how they will end up being. It's also important to remember that FFG is primarily a card/board game company whose mini games have all been prebuilt models or in part bags (like legion). As far as I'm aware, FFG has never sold sprues or multi pose minis. Expecting them to introduce both at the same time is unreasonable to me. Yes I prefer spues and I certainly would like to see multi pose corp, but give it time. Until then, sprue models are much easier to modify so at least there's that saving grace.

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8 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Until then, sprue models are much easier to modify so at least there's that saving grace.

Plenty of sprue models are NOT easy to modify. Material used, and whether or not it is sold attached to a mold tree, doesn't determine how easy it is to modify. That comes down to design.

I've owned certain metal models that were easier to modify than certain hard styrene models.

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Posted (edited)

I continue to see a lot of people equating "hard plastic" to "styrene".

It is highly unlikely that FFG is retooling its entire production line for this game. There are many types of PVC with different properties, and there are certainly harder, stiffer forms of PVC than what FFG generally has used up until this point.

Furthermore, PVC is cast in sprues. The CURRENT model lines are cast on sprues and then clipped free before packaging.

In other words, there is nothing to indicate that the new box will be anything but a stiffer PVC with the droids still attached to their sprues because they had to be cast in much smaller parts.

Edited by Tvayumat

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:


In other words, there is nothing to indicate that the new box will be anything but a stiffer PVC with the droids still attached to their sprues because they had to be cast in much smaller parts.

Ok. Then I have owned metal models that were easier to modify than hard plastic (of this polymer or that) models. 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Ok. Then I have owned metal models that were easier to modify than hard plastic (of this polymer or that) models. 

I wasn't really addressing that remark, more the vast wave of partially spoken excitement preparing for an outcome that is unlikely at best.

I personally couldn't care less about swapping to styrene. PVC figures are not THAT much harder to modify mechanically speaking, and as you note it depends mostly on how the figure was designed not what material it is cast in.

I actually quite like PVC in that it is incredibly resilient and stands up to regular wear'n'tear like a champion even once painted.

I'm excited that FFG continues to improve their models, of course. They've shown progress in just about every generation. Compare the stiffness of plastic and quality of detail from the latest IA release with the core set, for instance.

Edited by Tvayumat

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Posted (edited)

I always associate Sprus vs. non-sprus to fishing.  Basically, if your a veteran fisherman and you get the best lures and gear it makes a difference.  If you are new to fishing, it will actually reduce your chances of catching a fish as it tends to be more complicated.  Its basically the same with Sprus-non-sprus.  With Sprus, if you know what you are doing, its a big advantage and you can make much nicer looking models, but if your new it can actually have very negative results and be a bit frustrating.

With Sprus you often have to work with things like Greenstuff and other more complex stuff to get models to fit right.  With stuff like legion when painting storm troopers you need some black primer and white paint... and done.

Edited by BigKahuna

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11 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I always associate Sprus vs. non-sprus to fishing.  Basically, if your a veteran fisherman and you get the best lures and gear it makes a difference.  If you are new to fishing, it will actually reduce your chances of catching a fish as it tends to be more complicated.  Its basically the same with Sprus-non-sprus.  With Sprus, if you know what you are doing, its a big advantage and you can make much nicer looking models, but if your new it can actually have very negative results and be a bit frustrating.

With Sprus you often have to work with things like Greenstuff and other more complex stuff to get models to fit right.  With stuff like legion when painting storm troopers you need some black primer and white paint... and done.

I honestly have almost an opposite opinion to yours.

Legion's current PVC tends to warp and is nearly impossible to return to its intended shape. I've also had to purchase greenstuff for the first time in years specifically to fix the gaps in the legion models. I've been buying/assembling/painting hard plastic minis for 20 years and have never had to use greenstuff to fix gaps, nor have I had any warping issues.

My Legion core set took me longer to assemble(missing parts not withstanding) than any comparable "army starter" set from another company made of plastic.

Clipping, trimming, and gluing are very basic skills. Much simpler than correcting warping issues and filling gaps.

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I'll third that the fit and warpage on my Legion stuff was far worse than any sprue-based minis and kits I've ever done.  The only time I've needed greenstuff on those is to create new bits or to clean up conversions (both of which aren't dependent on how the mini started life).

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28 minutes ago, Albertese said:

Yeah, my Legion models required plenty of seam filling. 

The rebels especially. Some of them have fits about as wide as the Grand Canyon. I've definitely never used greenstuff as much with any other models I've assembled.  Ball-joint bits (which I believe were confirmed) would help solve these problems.

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10 hours ago, Derrault said:

It involves cutting plastic, whereas the current model involves no cutting. Ergo it’s adding the potential for harm both to the model and the user that were not already present.

That is, by any measure, a bigger, more notable barrier.

Its a minor barrier in the same way gluing the current models together is a minor barrier. 

Harming the model is very unlikely. and harming yourself is even more unlikely. You're really stretching to find a reason to be against sprues.

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8 hours ago, Albertese said:

I'm wondering if you have any experience with model work... Outside of dropping simple game figures on a table. Have you ever built a model car kit? Or a plane or anything? 

I ask only to try to offer helpful advice.  I'm not trying to be a d!ck, here. If you use a sharp x-acto knife (or any razor knife) the material should cut through with minimal effort. If you hold the sprue against a table surface, preferably protected by a cutting mat, there is no risk to your human fingers. If removing a small part that might eject from the table by cutting off the sprue, drape a washcloth over the blade to catch the tiny part.

With just a little practice, you can safely and easily remove parts from frames.  Just give it a try, you'll probably find that it's not a big deal. Hardly a barrier to accessibility. 

I’ve built models (plastic and wooden) of cars, planes, rockets (functional), bird houses, tables, chairs, roofed, assembled sheds, etcetera. The problem is not that I don’t know how to do it, the problem is that snipping plastic sprues is a pain in the derrier. And although I appreciate the tip, I would never, in any circumstances, cut something blind.

Hard plastic absolutely will shred your fingers given the chance, and as a direct comparison for Bloodbowl, the pieces are frequently brittle enough that one wrong move breaks them, requiring those components to be superglued back together before assembly, probably causing detail damage. At least when the pieces are removed at the factory you aren’t getting damaged parts.🙀

 

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I've built hundreds, maybe more than a thousand Games Workshop models over the years.

What you have described has happened a handful of times. Certain kits are more prone to it than others.

I think you are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

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7 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Its a minor barrier in the same way gluing the current models together is a minor barrier. 

Harming the model is very unlikely. and harming yourself is even more unlikely. You're really stretching to find a reason to be against sprues.

Werd!

Super glue is way more dangerous than any exact-o knife you will ever wield.  I've glued myself to more models than I can count and there is nothing quite like loosing a piece of your model, calling FFG and asking you to send a replacement part, only to find it later in the shower as it helplessly falls off your elbow where you glued it to yourself.   Yeah.. that happened.

On a more serious note.  I personally haven't had any issues with gap filling or warping with my Legion mini's, though from what I understand this is more a Rebel issue than a Imperial one, other than like Vaders sword for example that was a bit crooked and needed straightening. 

In terms of Armies I have put together over the years which includes Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, Runewars, Battletech, Warhammer Fantasy and Bolt Action, Legion was definitely on the easy side of the spectrum.   Each product had its own unique challenges of course from a modeling perspective as well as from a painting perspective.  Certainly Warhammer 40k was the most complex in large part due to the sheer amount of parts and awkwardly shaped pieces (Had a Necron Army).  There were certain models that not only required greenstuff but using a drill with metal pins to construct properly.  Warmachine which also does not come on sprus I think has the largest variety in quality, some models are super clean, others have more mold lines than details and you spend days getting it ready.  

Legion so far has been relatively simple and straightforward.  Most models require minimal prep and glued tight without any effort.  My biggest beef with Legion is that so far, I haven't managed to buy anything for the game that didn't come with some sort of issue in terms of missing items.  Getting the wrong arms, missing legs, that sort of thing. FFG is great at responding to these issues but it can be a bit frustrating non the less.  

From what I have read about Legion so far, the quality control seems to be kind of all over the place.  Some people complain about warping and gaps, others get clean models.... I think all of these experiences my explain why the spru-nonspru discussion takes place fairly frequently in the hobby.

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