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The MechE

Question on Andira Runehand's ability

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3 hours ago, Hawkman67609er said:

I have not been ignoring any feedback I am taking it all in, understanding it, and their point of view. Words are being inserted or changed from what they really are.  There have been many arguments of people to me reading off that defense dice are rolled “against” an attack or damage “from” attacks but it says “during an attack.” And many other examples like introducing the difference between “damage suffered”and “damage taken” but it says “damage” and damage is damage.  Reflective ward does in fact also strongly elude that the attacker can role a defense dice, not just the defender.

The rule book states that "the attacking player adds up all of the [Heart] results on the dice to determine how much damage is dealt by this attack." Thus, in step 2, an attack result is created that consists of the number of surges and the number of hearts rolled. This attack result can be further modified in subsequent steps of the attack (e.g. in step 4, Spend surges). Finally, in step 5, the damage component (hearts) of the attack result is used to calculate the damage dealt to the affected figure(s).

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I have not been ignoring any feedback I am taking it all in, understanding it, and their point of view. 

Sorry, but this is not a matter of "point of view" in the sense of equally valid positions. The answers that you received in this thread are backed up by quotes from FFG representatives, official rules and FAQ. You can of course use different house rules in your group, however be prepared that you will likely run into a lot of problems.  

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I find it very interesting the point brought up if damage does in fact trigger after the entire attack action and you down the hero with your damage and there is no longer a hero there to trigger the aura does it still trigger?

I assume that your "aura" refers to Andira Runehand's Hero ability. The answer is "usually Andira's Hero ability does not trigger if she is defeated". There are 2 conflicting effects here that trigger off the same condition if Andira suffers damage equal to her Health: "when a hero suffers damage". These effects are:
1) When a hero suffers damage equal to its Health, it is immediately defeated.
2) Each time a hero within 3 spaces of you suffers 1 or more [Heart] from an attack, the figure that performed the attack suffers 1 [Heart].

The Golden Rule states that these kinds of timing conflicts are resolved by the active player. When a monster attacks Andira, the active player is most likely the overlord and he will usually choose to resolve 1) first. When being defeated Andira is removed from the map and her Hero abiliy cannot trigger anymore.

The current rule-set of Descent is fairly complex and scattered over many rule books, FAQ documents and websites. That's why I created the CRRG in the first place some time ago. It includes only rules and clarifications from  the official rule books, official FAQ and quotes from FFG employees (unofficial FAQ), and represents the most comprehensive document of this type around at the moment. It does not include any rule interpretations, house rules etc.
I cannot exclude that it still contains errors. However, most of those have been weeded out after 13 versions. You can get it from here:

https://descent-community.org/index.php/crrg/        

I advise you to refer to the CRRG first, if you have any further rule questions.

Edited by Sadgit

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5 hours ago, Sadgit said:

I advise you to refer to the CRRG first, if you have any further rule questions.

I can't agree with this enough.

Active forum members @Sadgit, @Zaltyre, and myself, along with several others that my poor memory permits me to forget (😂) , have put countless hours into generating, proof reading, etc. a LIVING document (the CRRG) for the benefit of the entire community.

This document has become the defacto standard for rules answers, especially in the light of the fact that FFG has significantly tapered off any of their efforts in the past few years.  In addition, these same individuals have been with this game since the beginning, have been active members on the forum, have interacted to a great degree with FFG personnel in the past in getting answers to community questions, have collated those questions and answers, have pushed back to FFG when there were conflicts with previous rulings, etc.

You can't possibly compare an original manual from 2012 to where things stand today.  The game changes, the rules change, as new rulings are made to take into account new assets.

Despite all of this, and despite what you claim @Hawkman67609er, your responses to input from these individuals has been very dismissive.

As I stated before, you are obviously free to rule any way you wish when you play, especially if it provides you greater enjoyment.  But if you do want to play by the generally accepted correct rules, I highly suggested you read the CRRG and digest what it has to say.

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Thank you Sadgut for bringing up that I was using wording for 2012 descent rulebook, when I went to google I just typed in descent rulebook pdf and assumed it would be the most up to date.  The 2015 wording is much better and it makes a little bit more sense.

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Edit: Welp, I was wrong. Apparently there is no difference between damage dealt and damage suffered. It's just a matter of perspective.

1. No defense roll for Andira's ability though. Andira's ability mentions the figure that "performed" the attack suffers 1 damage (**as in the attack is already finished**). Not the figure that "is performing" the attack suffers 1 damage (**as in the attack is still going**).

2. Reflective ward on the other hand takes place during the attack, so that's why defense dice are rolled.

Reflective ward: "Play this card when a hero attacks a monster, before rolling dice (**as in reflective ward takes place during the attack**). The attacking hero may choose to suffer 2 fatigue. If he cannot suffer the fatigue, or chooses not to, he will be dealt damage equal to the damage dealt to the monster."

3. You don't roll defense dice for shared pain. The part of shared pain that affects other monsters in the monster group doesn't take place until the attack is over and damage has been calculated and dealt.

Shared pain: "Perform an attack (**as in this is the first thing you do. You finish your attack action first**). If you deal at least 1 damage (after rolling defense dice), each other figure in the target's monster group suffers 1 damage."

For reference, what helped us figure this out was just looking at how combat normally took place and when damage was dealt, etc.

1.JPG

 

 

Edited by The MechE

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For reflective ward , a pierce value will count into the attack effect ?

A complicate condition : A attack  roll result with bread axe is 5 dmg , and attacker's defense result is 1 shield , how many dmg will cause on this attacker? 

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3 hours ago, edcy said:

For reflective ward , a pierce value will count into the attack effect ?

A complicate condition : A attack  roll result with bread axe is 5 dmg , and attacker's defense result is 1 shield , how many dmg will cause on this attacker? 

That's a good question.

As per the Reflective Ward wording, I think think weapon or any other abilities that modify the attack in anything other than the amount of hearts (such as status effects, moving, pierce, etc.) is counted against the attacker, so in your example the hero would suffer 4 damage.

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17 hours ago, ssorgatem said:

That's a good question.

As per the Reflective Ward wording, I think think weapon or any other abilities that modify the attack in anything other than the amount of hearts (such as status effects, moving, pierce, etc.) is counted against the attacker, so in your example the hero would suffer 4 damage.

The actual text of Reflective Ward:

Play this card when a hero attacks a monster, before rolling dice.
The attacking hero may choose to suffer 2 Fatigue. If he cannot suffer the Fatigue, or chooses not to, he will be dealt Heart equal to the Heart dealt to the monster.

An explanation of how it actually works:

Q: If the overlord plays "Reflective Ward" and the hero cannot suffer the Fatigue or chooses not to, how does a hero determine the amount of damage he suffers?

A: The attacking hero adds up all of the Heart results, including any additional Heart the attack gains from Surge results. Then, he rolls his defense pool, canceling 1 Heart for each Shield result and suffering the rest of the Heart. No other effects from the attack, such as a condition, will apply to the hero.

 

I've said elsewhere and I'll say again here: Reflective Ward is a terribly worded card. Wonderful theme. Terrible word choice. "Damage dealt to the monster" does not come into play at all in the resolution of the card, as per the FAQ response above. The card works by looking at the attack results (hearts only, nothing else) present at the beginning of step 5. The hero then has to roll his defense pool to cancel some number of those hearts, and suffers the remainder as damage.

So for the Bearded Axe, layering complication on complication...

Step 1: Attack with Bearded Axe, OL plays Reflective Ward, you can't suffer the fatigue. OK.

Step 2: Roll 5 hearts, monster rolls 1 shield.

Step 3: It's a hit, moving on.

Step 4: (the tricky one). The axe has pierce 2, and the fun ability "If, after resolving Pierce, the target has no Shield on its defense roll, this attack gains +2 Heart"

Since the above is true, during this step the attack results become 7 hearts (and 0 shields).

Step 5: You have to roll defense against 7 hearts and will be dealt the remainder. Lets say you rolled 3 shields. You suffer 4. The monster suffers 7.

 

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so... if the monster rolls 2 shields , how to work about this condition ? (the hero rolls 5 dmg , too)

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1 hour ago, edcy said:

so... if the monster rolls 2 shields , how to work about this condition ? (the hero rolls 5 dmg , too)

If the monster rolls 2 shields, it will be the same since the Bearded Axe has "pierce 2".  7 hearts. If you roll 5 and the monster rolls 3, you'll be rolling for reflective ward against 5 hearts.

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Posted (edited)

It has pierce 1 XD  , but I know the answer , thx! 

And  can I consider that the reflective ward's resolve timing is before substrate shield and after resolve pierce effect ? 

 

Another question :  If a berserker make a whirlwind  and has no stamina to stop reflective ward , he rolls 5 dmg with Bearded Axe to 2 monsters with 1 shield and 3 shields, the reflective ward will deal 7 or 5 dmg ? 

Edited by edcy
add other question

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22 hours ago, edcy said:

It has pierce 1 XD  , but I know the answer , thx! 

And  can I consider that the reflective ward's resolve timing is before substrate shield and after resolve pierce effect ? 

 

Another question :  If a berserker make a whirlwind  and has no stamina to stop reflective ward , he rolls 5 dmg with Bearded Axe to 2 monsters with 1 shield and 3 shields, the reflective ward will deal 7 or 5 dmg ? 

I misspoke, it has a surge:pierce 2 and a native pierce 1. Because they happen during step 4, surges which affect the number of shields (and therefore whether the bearded axe changes the number of hearts) will matter).

For whirlwind, the OL would have to play reflective ward triggering off the hero attacking a specific monster- even though with most weapons it would make no difference since it's the same attack roll, if the hero is wielding bearded axe it will matter whether the OL played reflective ward in response to the hero attacking zombie A or zombie B.

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But when a single attack affects more than one figure, don't effects that modify the damage dealt affect all figures, even those who don't trigger it?

 

For instance, if a Hybrid Sentinel does a fire breath attack, and the first targeted figure has a might of 2 or less, the attack gains +1 damage *for all affected figures*, even those who have more than 2 might.

Would the same apply for this whirlwind-bearded axe scenario?

Meaning, if any of the affected miniatures rolled effective 0 shield after pierce, all affected figures would receive the +2 damage, even if they rolled 5 shields.

Since whirlwind is a singlke attack with multiple targets, and the bearded axe text says "this attack gains +2 damage", any single target will modify the attack for all of them.

Just like one of the targets being stealthy can make the whole whirlwind to miss all figures, as per the unofficial FAQ:

Q: If a Berserker uses Whirlwind, targeting a monster with Stealthy as well as other monsters that do not have Stealthy, and he rolls 2 Range, is the entire attack considered a miss, or does he only miss the monster with Stealthy?

A: Yes, in this case the entire attack would be a miss.
https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ

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Another instance of a single target modifying the whole attack for all targets:

-- Valyndra's Bane

Q: If you have Valyndra's Bane (which gives an extra yellow power dice if you attack large monsters) and you attack with Whirlwind with both large and small monsters adjacent to you. How many dice, you have to use in the attack?

A: The extra yellow die would be added to the roll, and it would affect each monster targeted by/affected by the attack.

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8 hours ago, ssorgatem said:

But when a single attack affects more than one figure, don't effects that modify the damage dealt affect all figures, even those who don't trigger it?

You're correct, the whole attack would be modified based on the wording of Bearded Axe,  "...the attack gains +2..."

The point remains that Reflective Ward triggers when a hero attacks a monster. Since there is only one attack, it will not make an effective difference which monster triggers its effect.

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