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Tealadin

Clone Wars Unit Request & Speculation

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4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They'd have to be stupidly powerful for them to make any sense at all.

All the lightsaber users we’ve seen so far have been Commanders and Operatives.  Weapons on those models tend to roll more dice and have more keywords than similar weapons on Special Forces and Corp units.  For example, compare Veers’ E-11 (three white dice and Pierce) to a generic Stormtrooper E-11 (one white die with no Pierce).

 

I imagine a generic Jedi unit would be Special Forces and comparable to Royal Guards or Wookiee Warriors.  They could have three models and roll two dice each on attacks.  If they have Impact 1 and Pierce 1, stacking them would make the Jedi better than their counterparts in melee - likely at the cost of not having a built-in Ranged weapon.  I agree they’d have a Force slot or two, but they could lose Training and Equipment since those are not as closely associated with the Jedi.  I also think they could go without Deflect and Immune: Pierce, since we see background Jedi get hit by blasters on Geonosis  - save those keywords for bigger names.  Such a unit would still capture the feel of Jedi (potentially devastating  lightsaber attack, ability to use the Force) while providing enough drawbacks (need to get into melee, lack of non-Force staple upgrades) to stay at a reasonable 75ish cost.

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6 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They'd have to be stupidly powerful for them to make any sense at all.  Grievous's lightsabers are 1 red, 2 black, 1 white each, and it's a noticeable drop from the normal lightsaber of any of the Jedi in the game.

Grevious has those stats not just because of the lightsaber, buts also his skill. Thats why Vader is RRRRRR, Luke is BBBBBB, Obi-Wan is RRBBWW...It's a combination of both their skill AND the weapon. You also see it with the hero characters. Veers uses the same pistol as most other Imps, but he has a higher dice pool to reflect his better capability with it. Even a basic weapon is lethal in the hands of a master. 

A squad of Jedi is possible because Jedi are not invincible/allpowerful gods...They are normal people, with greater than average knowledge, abilities and skill. Also...throwing in my own pichqdefault.jpg.4f8f556c0a2623d3f10b2752033615ba.jpg

In the opening shot of the Geonosian Arena we see dozens of Jedi...And by the end there are only the 14(ish) master left. Dozens of Knights died in the arena...We also see throughout the comics, TV shows Jedi Knights fighting in small groups and being defeated by Grevious, his Magnaguard, or the droid armies.

A squad of 4 Jedi knights, with RR attack dice, would be a great melee unit. It is also a guarantee that the CIS will get the Magnaguard as their melee unit (equivalent to the Imp Guard or Wookies) and the only melee focused Republic unit that could stand toe to toe with the Magnaguard are Jedi Knights. This is the same counter point to the ARC troopers as well, you're focusing on the characters (heros) of a group and adding so much mystic that you are missing the fact that there are thousands of Jedi, and only about 2 dozen are noteworthy enough to be considered true masters. Grevious couldn't have collected so many trophy lightsabers if all Jedi were as good as Obi-Wan and Anakin. **** even Ahsoka was defeated by Grevious...

 

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22 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

@Alpha17 Idk man I’ve not played Legion, I’m waiting on my buddy to finally get moved in so he can set up his gear and paint his army. 😂

I really think it’s possible for FFG to design something in that in-between space there; not too powerful, while still interesting. I’ve seen them do enough new/interesting things to keep X-Wing balanced that I believe they could do the same in this game.

And I’m not saying they absolutely will or should bring this in as a unit. I just don’t believe it’s as impossible as you seem convinced of.

Not to be a jerk, but you should probably get a few games in before you try to figure out what should be in the game.  A generic Jedi would work fine, a squad of them, not so much.  And I'd hardly use X-Wing as the standard for a balanced game.  Their methodology of "it's good, nerf it" and a single all powerful list that dominates the game until the next nerf is not something I want to see Legion embrace. 

18 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

All the lightsaber users we’ve seen so far have been Commanders and Operatives.  Weapons on those models tend to roll more dice and have more keywords than similar weapons on Special Forces and Corp units.  For example, compare Veers’ E-11 (three white dice and Pierce) to a generic Stormtrooper E-11 (one white die with no Pierce).

 

I imagine a generic Jedi unit would be Special Forces and comparable to Royal Guards or Wookiee Warriors.  They could have three models and roll two dice each on attacks.  If they have Impact 1 and Pierce 1, stacking them would make the Jedi better than their counterparts in melee - likely at the cost of not having a built-in Ranged weapon.  I agree they’d have a Force slot or two, but they could lose Training and Equipment since those are not as closely associated with the Jedi.  I also think they could go without Deflect and Immune: Pierce, since we see background Jedi get hit by blasters on Geonosis  - save those keywords for bigger names.  Such a unit would still capture the feel of Jedi (potentially devastating  lightsaber attack, ability to use the Force) while providing enough drawbacks (need to get into melee, lack of non-Force staple upgrades) to stay at a reasonable 75ish cost.

So, you'd give give a squad of Jedi an attack that's only marginally better than Guards or Wookiees, a Force slot, and nothing else.  Their attack might start off as OK, but would rapidly become a joke as they took casualties.  Those aren't Jedi, those are reskinned generic melee units.  No thanks.  Deflect and Immune Pierce are definitely required; we see tons of Jedi in the background blocking shots, not just the big named ones, and that's one of the few things that keep Jedi from getting focused fired and destroyed in a hit or two; more so with fire support being a thing.  No, just all the no.

Even looking at the cards for Veers and Grievous, we see a bit of a difference in how things are handled.  Veer's attack is with an E-11, but it's a personal one, likely representing a modified version, and that's why its attack isn't the same with the average stormtrooper.  Grievous's attack is labeled as "trophy lightsaber," and I think that's an important difference.  Rather than being something that grants it a superiority to the norm, this would indicate that it is lesser than the norm, as it was taken as a trophy and he doesn't have the full understanding of its use.  After all, there was supposed to be a spiritual component to building and harnessing a lightsaber, and Grievous would lack that ability.  At the very least, I still see Grievous's attack as the baseline of power for a lightsaber attack, 1 Red, 2 Black, 1 White.  It is weaker than all of the heroic Jedi we have, but not so much so as to be silly in comparison. 

16 hours ago, Tealadin said:

Grevious has those stats not just because of the lightsaber, buts also his skill. Thats why Vader is RRRRRR, Luke is BBBBBB, Obi-Wan is RRBBWW...It's a combination of both their skill AND the weapon. You also see it with the hero characters. Veers uses the same pistol as most other Imps, but he has a higher dice pool to reflect his better capability with it. Even a basic weapon is lethal in the hands of a master. 

A squad of Jedi is possible because Jedi are not invincible/allpowerful gods...They are normal people, with greater than average knowledge, abilities and skill. Also...throwing in my own pichqdefault.jpg.4f8f556c0a2623d3f10b2752033615ba.jpg

In the opening shot of the Geonosian Arena we see dozens of Jedi...And by the end there are only the 14(ish) master left. Dozens of Knights died in the arena...We also see throughout the comics, TV shows Jedi Knights fighting in small groups and being defeated by Grevious, his Magnaguard, or the droid armies.

A squad of 4 Jedi knights, with RR attack dice, would be a great melee unit. It is also a guarantee that the CIS will get the Magnaguard as their melee unit (equivalent to the Imp Guard or Wookies) and the only melee focused Republic unit that could stand toe to toe with the Magnaguard are Jedi Knights. This is the same counter point to the ARC troopers as well, you're focusing on the characters (heros) of a group and adding so much mystic that you are missing the fact that there are thousands of Jedi, and only about 2 dozen are noteworthy enough to be considered true masters. Grevious couldn't have collected so many trophy lightsabers if all Jedi were as good as Obi-Wan and Anakin. **** even Ahsoka was defeated by Grevious...

 

Grievous's skill is that he gets two such attacks, and a separate card that gives him a ridiculous amount of flash.  That said, Grievous's skill has been highly overrated by fans.  We routinely see him get beat and have to run.  Most of his successful Jedi kills, outside of the cool-but-ridiculous 2003 series, were sneak attacks, wearing a Jedi down, or simply overpowering them.  This isn't a matter of Grievous's being so much better than these Jedi as to deserve to receive several times the attack as them, it's more tactics.

As for focusing on the heroes.... well, yeah.  Jedi served as Generals during the war, not squads of troopers.  Even the barely trained Padawans served as Commanders.  They should be reserved for the position of general, or at least operatives, not anything that spams them on the table.  Just like with ARCs, this issue seems to stem from a lack of understand of the lore and how they were used.  ARCs were almost never deployed in squad sized units; neither were Jedi.  The operations that they were were special situations that the rules of the game should not bend over backwards to cater.

If you're worried about Magna guards.... why?  We never really Magna Guards be anything more than a mild annoyance for most Jedi.  In game, I'd expect them to be the same, something you try to take out before they get in range, or something you throw Obi-Wan/Anakin at to protect your troopers.  You don't need a squad of Jedi to counter them, and if, for some ridiculous reason, it is decided that the Republic just needs a semi-worthless melee unit like all the other factions, they have several options besides picking the dumbest Jedi they can find and putting them in a squad.  Red Guards, Senate Guards, Wookiees, Clone Riot troopers, heck even Gungans.  All make far more sense.

 

If you really, really want a Generic Jedi unit in the game, a commander or operative would make far more sense.  I personally would love this, as it would allow for lesser known characters to see table use in the form of 3D printed proxies.  Aayla Secura, Quinlin Vos, and even K'Kruhk would be fun.  Sha'a Gi would make for some hilarious battles with Grievous.  It also allows the Jedi to feel like Jedi, and not just another random trooper or even "elite" trooper like Wookiees or Guards.

If it has to be SF, and there's no way around it, then a 2 person team is the most we should get.  (Always two there are, a master and an apprentice) Their attacks should be like Grievous's, 1 Red, 2 Black, 1 White, with Pierce 1, and either Critical or Impact.  Immune: Pierce, and Deflect.  Force power slot, and either gear or training.  2-3 health per mini, possibly 4, though that runs the risk of being too strong.  I'd also make the unit unique, or put a limit of two on it, so as not to spam them.  I'm still not sure how this would work, but its probably the best of a bad situation. 

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3 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Not to be a jerk, but you should probably get a few games in before you try to figure out what should be in the game.

I have as much right as anyone to speculate on what FFG might try to include in this game. There is, however, a reason I’m not hypothesizing abilities in-depth. 

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2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Those aren't Jedi, those are reskinned generic melee units. 

They would generic Jedi melee units.  I’d probably give them two Force slots, and possibly the option to bring a fourth model with a cool saber style, maybe a choice between crossguard or double-bladed.  But in the end we’re talking about generic Jedi who fight with melee weapons, so ‘generic melee unit’ sounds right to me.  These aren’t great Jedi Masters and prodigies like Yoda, Kenobi and Skywalker; they don’t need to get everything that Jedi could possibly have.

 

You know what?  We saw this unit on screen.  Mace led them to Palpatine’s office, where the Sidious promptly took them out in a single round.

 

 

All that said, I could also see getting a generic Jedi Commander, with more of the abilities you describe.  They’d provide a lower-cost option for have a Jedi lead Clones into battle.

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This is just my personal opion, but I dont ever want to see a generic jedi squad in this game, at the very least if FFG did come out with one I wouldnt buy it, it just doesn't fit my idea of what the republic army should be/play as, and I cant fit my head around the idea of wanting to field a generic jedi squad.

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New Idea: Instead of a Generic Jedi Squad, which a number of people seem to think must be over powered, lets add a group of younglings! The ones from "the Gathering" episode of Clone wars. Petro, a human; Katooni, a Tholothian; Byph, an Ithorian; Ganodi, a Rodian; Zatt, a Nautolan; and Gungi, a wookie. no need to be over powered as they are still padawans. They did fight against Hondo (who some people also want added alongside an entire scum faction) and eventually Separatist droids. I have seen people ask for R2-D2's D-Squad from the clone wars so why not these guys?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gathering_(episode)

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3 minutes ago, Draycos said:

New Idea: Instead of a Generic Jedi Squad, which a number of people seem to think must be over powered, lets add a group of younglings! The ones from "the Gathering" episode of Clone wars. Petro, a human; Katooni, a Tholothian; Byph, an Ithorian; Ganodi, a Rodian; Zatt, a Nautolan; and Gungi, a wookie. no need to be over powered as they are still padawans. They did fight against Hondo (who some people also want added alongside an entire scum faction) and eventually Separatist droids. I have seen people ask for R2-D2's D-Squad from the clone wars so why not these guys?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gathering_(episode)

Only if there is a special keyword with them that allows u to run anakin with them and after the first round u can remove all the younglings from the board to replace anakin with Darth vader

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

You know what?  We saw this unit on screen.  Mace led them to Palpatine’s office, where the Sidious promptly took them out in a single round.

The Jedi killed by Palatine where Jedi Masters. Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin & Kit Fisto weren't just generic Jedi. Admittedly they were killed ridiculously easy in that scene, but they were powerful Jedi none the less.

I don't think a Jedi squad makes much sense. A Master & Apprentice unit maybe, but I'd prefer Jedi's to be kept as Commanders and Operatives.

Edited by bwingstrike
Corrected Saesee's name

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23 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

I have as much right as anyone to speculate on what FFG might try to include in this game. There is, however, a reason I’m not hypothesizing abilities in-depth. 

Sure, but speculating without a firm grasp of the game leads to problems.  I don't know what games you do play, so I'm at a loss to find an example.  I don't really play Armada any more, but this isn't all that different than wanting an Eclipse SSD or the Death Star in the game, complete with super laser.  It doesn't really fit the mechanics, and while might look good on the table for a limited time, they would either be broken beyond all reason, or be so ridiculously under powered as to be laughable.  

20 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

They would generic Jedi melee units.  I’d probably give them two Force slots, and possibly the option to bring a fourth model with a cool saber style, maybe a choice between crossguard or double-bladed.  But in the end we’re talking about generic Jedi who fight with melee weapons, so ‘generic melee unit’ sounds right to me.  These aren’t great Jedi Masters and prodigies like Yoda, Kenobi and Skywalker; they don’t need to get everything that Jedi could possibly have.

 

You know what?  We saw this unit on screen.  Mace led them to Palpatine’s office, where the Sidious promptly took them out in a single round.

 

 

All that said, I could also see getting a generic Jedi Commander, with more of the abilities you describe.  They’d provide a lower-cost option for have a Jedi lead Clones into battle.

But they wouldn't feel like Jedi at all.  The Force Slot, without the other things that make Jedi unique in the game, wouldn't really make them feel like Jedi.  ****, even Sabine, someone who's entire experience with lightsaber fighting is swinging the Darksaber around for a few days, has a much higher attack than you suggest these fully trained Jedi Knights should have.  She also has Immune: Pierce, Pierce and Impact with it as well.  While she can't deflect, that's likely because we never see her do that.  We do, however, see countless random Jedi deflect shots throughout the Prequels.  These aren't all Jedi Masters, but they all should have more than a match for a teen girl with limited sword fighting experience.  Kanan was a random Jedi Padawan, and yet even half-trained, he would have far better stats than what you want a squad of Jedi Knights to have.

As bwingstrike said, those were Jedi Masters, and members of the council at that.  They were also extremely powerful in their own right, and we have on screen evidence of their prowess on multiple occasions.  ****, Dark Horse did a comic back in the day showing that exact team taking down a station full of bounty hunters (a far more applicable comparison for Legion than fighting a Sith Lord) and doing it quite handily.  Weakening those characters that much would be absolutely ridiculous.  

Last note, but I'm not sure why you said "cool saber style" and then followed it up with "crossguard."  Nothing cool about a pointless goofy flashy effect that would cause far more harm than good.  Even considering the extreme ridiculousness of dual wielding and double-bladed lightsabers, the cross guard comes off as overly pointless.  

20 hours ago, Draycos said:

New Idea: Instead of a Generic Jedi Squad, which a number of people seem to think must be over powered, lets add a group of younglings! The ones from "the Gathering" episode of Clone wars. Petro, a human; Katooni, a Tholothian; Byph, an Ithorian; Ganodi, a Rodian; Zatt, a Nautolan; and Gungi, a wookie. no need to be over powered as they are still padawans. They did fight against Hondo (who some people also want added alongside an entire scum faction) and eventually Separatist droids. I have seen people ask for R2-D2's D-Squad from the clone wars so why not these guys?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gathering_(episode)

I mean, the stats proposed here would fit barely trained younglings far better than Knights with years of experience. 

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@Alpha17 there’s this thing called Plot Armor that makes a massive difference, too.

Again, I’m not arguing the mechanics specifically. I realize I don’t have a great grasp of that. I simply don’t believe you that they couldn’t make a jedi squad that is the right combination of high cost and low power. And perhaps more the point, I don’t believe that it would make them feel unflavorful.

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15 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Last note, but I'm not sure why you said "cool saber style" and then followed it up with "crossguard."  Nothing cool about a pointless goofy flashy effect that would cause far more harm than good.  Even considering the extreme ridiculousness of dual wielding and double-bladed lightsabers, the cross guard comes off as overly pointless.  

I know this doesn't change the design choice but "in universe" the cross-guard on Kylo's saber is not intended as a guard. He is trying to push to much power into the blade and the excess needs to be vented out. He is also using a cracked crystal which is why his saber throws sparks and hisses instead of being smooth and humming. He didn't know how to build a light-saber on his own but he did what he could to make it work. It is a little dumb, and certainly impractical but I like it. It gives us a good parallel for Kylo. He has more hate and anger than he can hold. That said, there is a "normal" light-saber shown in the Rebels show that has a cross guard and that one has no excuse in my mind.

All that said: If you don't like it, I understand. I didn't like it at first either. But that's no reason to tell other people what they can or can't think is cool. If people like cross guard light-sabers so be it (they are canon). Nobody is telling you that you have to like them. As for a Jedi unit, I think we will just have to wait and see what FFG announces.

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10 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

@Alpha17 there’s this thing called Plot Armor that makes a massive difference, too.

Again, I’m not arguing the mechanics specifically. I realize I don’t have a great grasp of that. I simply don’t believe you that they couldn’t make a jedi squad that is the right combination of high cost and low power. And perhaps more the point, I don’t believe that it would make them feel unflavorful.

Plot armor is most certainly a thing, and while it should be taken into consideration, it should be taken in context.

As for the last part, we'll have to agree to disagree.  A squad that is "high cost and low power" seems most certainly "unflavorful" for Jedi Knights that spent their entire lives in the Order, and were far, far better trained in lightsaber combat than everyone in the game short of Vader, Obi, and the Senate. 

1 minute ago, Draycos said:

I know this doesn't change the design choice but "in universe" the cross-guard on Kylo's saber is not intended as a guard. He is trying to push to much power into the blade and the excess needs to be vented out. He is also using a cracked crystal which is why his saber throws sparks and hisses instead of being smooth and humming. He didn't know how to build a light-saber on his own but he did what he could to make it work. It is a little dumb, and certainly impractical but I like it. It gives us a good parallel for Kylo. He has more hate and anger than he can hold. That said, there is a "normal" light-saber shown in the Rebels show that has a cross guard and that one has no excuse in my mind.

All that said: If you don't like it, I understand. I didn't like it at first either. But that's no reason to tell other people what they can or can't think is cool. If people like cross guard light-sabers so be it (they are canon). Nobody is telling you that you have to like them. As for a Jedi unit, I think we will just have to wait and see what FFG announces.

Oh, I understand why it does what it does, and the lore behind it.  I hate everything about the sequels, but I've tried to give them a chance.  When TFA came out, I looked into the lore to see why things were the way they were, before deciding that the era had nothing good to offer.

But yes, I can most certainly tell someone that something is stupid, and argue why that is the case.  It's up to them to agree or disagree with me on the subject.  

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31 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

But they wouldn't feel like Jedi at all.  The Force Slot, without the other things that make Jedi unique in the game, wouldn't really make them feel like Jedi.

Last note, but I'm not sure why you said "cool saber style" and then followed it up with "crossguard." 

If swinging lightsabers and using the Force doesn’t feel like “Jedi” to you, then I don’t know what to say.  Legion always makes named characters far more powerful than generic characters, even when they realistically should have similar weapons and skill, so I believe you have unrealistic expectations of what generic Jedi should have.

 

Regarding the crossguard saber, I admit “cool” is totally a matter of opinion.  I’m perfectly fine with you not thinking crossguard sabers are cool.  Personally, I like them and would love to paint one for Legion.  If FFG makes one, nobody will force you to buy it, paint it or use it.

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Legion has 5 categories : Command, Elite, Core, Support, Heavy. and they are following the same pattern as the original Core release. That means very soon, we will get an Operative for both sides, an emplaced weapon for both sides, an Elite Trooper and an Elite Melee. 

The Elite melee for the Seppies is, as I've stated, obvious. The Magnaguard...I'm just curious what your alternative to a Republic melee unit would be? Wookies are out; at least right now. FF isn't going to double up on the same unit as another army. At least not this early; I fully expect Wookies to make it into the Republic later, but there are other criteria to meet first.

The Republic doesn't really have any other melee focused units like the Imp guard or Magnas...other than the Jedi. The Senate Guard? No, they use guns, the Gungan infantry is a Core at best. The ARCS and Commandos are range focused...You might argue the Riot police on Coreuscant, but they look more Core as well.

A unit of 3 Jedi, with RR, Pierce1, 1 Force Power, 2 Health, and Red armor would be tougher than the other melee units. Add deflect in isn't a problem either. The unit will likely cost 150p instead of 100 when upgraded. Add in Training like "Tenacity" and they get stronger. Add a personal with Double bladed saber to add Impact to the group. Or a "Special leader" ,like the Pathfinders or Death troopers have, which adds another special rule. The unit would be more effective that the Wookies or Imp Guard and still mortal...like this guy...

Coleman-Trebor-attacks-Dooku.jpg

We all remember what happened to him...(I tried a gif, but it was too much) Not going to lie...if they make a Jedi unit...I hope he's in it...(or at least a head to make him).

Besides, I see you argument that the unit might not feel "Jedi', but there will be plenty of Jedi Leaders and Operatives to do that. Just give it time. And in the meantime please let us hope for a Jedi unit so I can watch this scene happen on my table...again and again.( I will always remove him first 😈)

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Personally I don't give the teeniest tiniest wet wee fart if a unit of Knights weren't the most awesomestest and powerfulestest unit like evar - I want cool generic Jedi miniatures, and I want to field them in my Legion army, and that's all the justification they need as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't care for the idea, don't buy the unit? I don't like Shoretroopers, so I'll be making Storm Commandos instead. Wookie Warriors don't fit thematically with my Rebel force, so I didn't buy them.

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21 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

If swinging lightsabers and using the Force doesn’t feel like “Jedi” to you, then I don’t know what to say.  Legion always makes named characters far more powerful than generic characters, even when they realistically should have similar weapons and skill, so I believe you have unrealistic expectations of what generic Jedi should have.

 

Regarding the crossguard saber, I admit “cool” is totally a matter of opinion.  I’m perfectly fine with you not thinking crossguard sabers are cool.  Personally, I like them and would love to paint one for Legion.  If FFG makes one, nobody will force you to buy it, paint it or use it.

No, swinging lightsabers and having a one off Force upgrade doesn't feel like a Jedi.  Not when swinging a lightsaber is only marginally better than the dice pool a unit of Tauntauns is throwing, without the trouble of being in melee.  Unless you seriously consider a pair of snow lizards equal to the most skilled and powerful warriors in the galaxy, in which case there are other issues at stake. 

8 hours ago, Tealadin said:

Legion has 5 categories : Command, Elite, Core, Support, Heavy. and they are following the same pattern as the original Core release. That means very soon, we will get an Operative for both sides, an emplaced weapon for both sides, an Elite Trooper and an Elite Melee. 

The Elite melee for the Seppies is, as I've stated, obvious. The Magnaguard...I'm just curious what your alternative to a Republic melee unit would be? Wookies are out; at least right now. FF isn't going to double up on the same unit as another army. At least not this early; I fully expect Wookies to make it into the Republic later, but there are other criteria to meet first.

The Republic doesn't really have any other melee focused units like the Imp guard or Magnas...other than the Jedi. The Senate Guard? No, they use guns, the Gungan infantry is a Core at best. The ARCS and Commandos are range focused...You might argue the Riot police on Coreuscant, but they look more Core as well.

They aren't really following the same trend, however.  The first extra commanders were both the cheap options for their factions, and the first expansion of Corps units were close range combatants.  Dooku is anything but cheap, and the Phase II clones are closer to the elite/veteran units in comparison.  The initial heavies also don't follow the same path as the CW units; besides the power difference, the GCW heavies came out on release, not months later and several releases down the line.  

As I've already stated, the Republic has several other options for a melee unit; Wookiees, Gungans, Senate/Red Guard, and Riot troopers.  The Senate Guard does indeed carry rifles in the films; that doesn't reallly matter because Wookiees largely carry bowcasters and blasters in the films but were made melee units because they also happened to carry swords.  No reason a similar change couldn't be made, though I do hope that's not the case.  Wookiees and Red Guard would, of course, be very similar to the melee units we have now, but there's not a real problem with that other than the assumed need to not duplicate units.  Besides the obvious issue of holding to that rule that it would bring to the AT-RT, FFG is already breaking it with the dual faction R2-D2/C-3P0 expansion.  As for corps units as melee units, if we use your argument that they are bound to the original style of release, then we won't see anything like a melee corps unit as the GCW units never got one.  That would free up the units you think are better for corps releases for use as SF/elite units.  I do have problems with that, as I think that TCW gives us excellent examples of units that should be corps and focus primarily on melee attacks, namely Geonosians, but the Gungans also fit.  I could easily see them as a pair of releases.  The best pairing for Magnas, besides Wookiees/Red Guards, would be the Riot troopers.  While silly to see a riot trooper in the middle of a battlefield, it has sadly been done before.  I don't see them as a corps unit preciesly because they are silly, and would serve no purpose being the main building block of an army, while equipping them this way for a special mission makes more sense.  The name really doesn't help, but simply calling them "Courscant Guard" would fix that, I guess.

All of that assumes that the Republic needs a melee unit, and I personally don't think they really do.  Melee units in this game have never impressed me (aside from the space monks), and also don't really fit what we see on screen.  The CIS has a lot of options for good melee units because they were designed to be a bit more alien, and to feel unique from the gun and lightsaber combo of the Republic.  Besides Magna guards and Geonosians, Commando Droids should also have a solid melee attack, better, I dare say, than Clone commando's vibro guantlets.  If the Republic wants melee, they have Jedi commanders for that, and hopefully operatives soon as well.  A dedicated unit of Tauntaun-level lightsabers doesn't help that much, and does subtract from actual Jedi characters.  

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Completely agree that Jedi should not be a unit. With the exception of the area battle on Geonosis, you never see Jedi in the clone wars deployed as some mass force. They are pretty much always deployed at very low numbers serving in very senior command roles over units of clones. You could certainly have some jedi function as operatives and some as commanders, but as a unit it just doesn't add up. I also agree the Republic really doesn't need a melee unit, especially if you have loads of Jedi commanders/operatives to choose from to fill that roll. 

On the topic of a generic jedi commander/operative, I think that would be cool to have that option to let players field any jedi character they want, but man there are a pretty much endless amount of named jedi characters to use, and a lot of prominent ones. If we go off the number of named commanders/operatives the empire/rebels have now (6 per faction), it's gonna be tough to fit in all the prominent Jedi, especially considering Rex already takes up one of those slots, and I could see Cody being added in later. That leaves a spot for Anakin of course, and after him I imagine Mace and Yoda. That's barley the tip of the iceberg though, there's a load of other Jedi with small screen appearances that could be thrown in there as well. 

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I really want to see models for bly and aayla secura, simply due to my choice of clone legion. It would be nice to have a variety of jedi generals though and that is one of the reasons why I feel the clone wars is a better setting for a tabletop war game.

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On 8/21/2019 at 4:07 PM, Draycos said:

I know this doesn't change the design choice but "in universe" the cross-guard on Kylo's saber is not intended as a guard. He is trying to push to much power into the blade and the excess needs to be vented out. He is also using a cracked crystal which is why his saber throws sparks and hisses instead of being smooth and humming. He didn't know how to build a light-saber on his own but he did what he could to make it work. It is a little dumb, and certainly impractical but I like it. It gives us a good parallel for Kylo. He has more hate and anger than he can hold. That said, there is a "normal" light-saber shown in the Rebels show that has a cross guard and that one has no excuse in my mind.

 

In universe Kylo's lightsaber is actually modelled after the ones in Rebels. The TFA Visual Dictionary states that he made his lightsaber according to a design from the time of the siege of Malachor, the remnants of which we see in Rebels. In one of the Maul comics, age of republic IIRC, we basically got confirmation that ALL the lightsabers there had the vents (not cross guards!!!). The Dictionary is also the source which gave us the energy management explanation.

The implication here is, that the Jedi (and Sith, probably) of the Malachor (Old Republic?) era used these, because some other solution for the problem wasn't yet developed. Later on this technological improvement allowed the introduction of the modern lightsaber. Kylo presumably used it because he needed additional energy control for his cracked Crystal. I really enjoy all of that, because it shows a bit of technological development in the too static SW galaxy. I like to think of the Darksabers shape as an in between step, using a larger blade surface to dissipate more energy. I guess containment technology just got better for the classic (out of universe) saber.

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3 hours ago, Rammstein117 said:

I really want to see models for bly and aayla secura, simply due to my choice of clone legion. It would be nice to have a variety of jedi generals though and that is one of the reasons why I feel the clone wars is a better setting for a tabletop war game.

I will be running the Saber tank in part so I can have Aayla Secura on my team. I hope her inclusion there as a pilot does not preclude her from becoming a Commander unit, because I would like to see her in model form.

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21 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

All of that assumes that the Republic needs a melee unit, and I personally don't think they really do.  Melee units in this game have never impressed me (aside from the space monks), and also don't really fit what we see on screen.  The CIS has a lot of options for good melee units because they were designed to be a bit more alien, and to feel unique from the gun and lightsaber combo of the Republic.  Besides Magna guards and Geonosians, Commando Droids should also have a solid melee attack, better, I dare say, than Clone commando's vibro guantlets.  If the Republic wants melee, they have Jedi commanders for that, and hopefully operatives soon as well.  A dedicated unit of Tauntaun-level lightsabers doesn't help that much, and does subtract from actual Jedi characters.  

Also the fact that even the Phase I clones were skilled hand-to-hand combatants.  We see them engaging the droids in close combat several times in The Clone Wars with little to no loses on their side due to the droids' poor fighting abilities, something which is reflected in the Phase I clones getting a black die for close quarters whereas the droids only get a white die.  The Republic doesn't NEED a melee unit, but the droids definitely do.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

In universe Kylo's lightsaber is actually modelled after the ones in Rebels. The TFA Visual Dictionary states that he made his lightsaber according to a design from the time of the siege of Malachor, the remnants of which we see in Rebels. In one of the Maul comics, age of republic IIRC, we basically got confirmation that ALL the lightsabers there had the vents (not cross guards!!!). The Dictionary is also the source which gave us the energy management explanation.

The implication here is, that the Jedi (and Sith, probably) of the Malachor (Old Republic?) era used these, because some other solution for the problem wasn't yet developed. Later on this technological improvement allowed the introduction of the modern lightsaber. Kylo presumably used it because he needed additional energy control for his cracked Crystal. I really enjoy all of that, because it shows a bit of technological development in the too static SW galaxy. I like to think of the Darksabers shape as an in between step, using a larger blade surface to dissipate more energy. I guess containment technology just got better for the classic (out of universe) saber.

So I had the basic idea, but I did not know the history. This makes me appreciate it so much more. Ironic that he needed to use an ancient design but wants to let the past die!

Thanks for the Info!

Edited by Draycos

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6 hours ago, Rammstein117 said:

I really want to see models for bly and aayla secura, simply due to my choice of clone legion. It would be nice to have a variety of jedi generals though and that is one of the reasons why I feel the clone wars is a better setting for a tabletop war game.

This, so much this.  Aayla Secura is by far my favorite non-main character Jed of the prequel era, and possibly my favorite EU Jedi.  (Sorry Corran and Mara)  Her backstory and command style were always awesome.   It's a shame we didn't see more of her in TCW.

2 hours ago, Paladin Ignatius said:

Also the fact that even the Phase I clones were skilled hand-to-hand combatants.  We see them engaging the droids in close combat several times in The Clone Wars with little to no loses on their side due to the droids' poor fighting abilities, something which is reflected in the Phase I clones getting a black die for close quarters whereas the droids only get a white die.  The Republic doesn't NEED a melee unit, but the droids definitely do.

I don't know, while characters like Fordo are able to smash his way through droids pretty easily, I don't recall the clone who punched a droid on Christophsis doing all that way. 

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Talking about E-Webs made me think of this, and now I want them for the Republic.

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Give my Clones some Space Maxims!  Design wise, I'd say they wouldn't need to be all that different from the Imperial version, perhaps a slight increase in points to make up for the black die thrown by their DC-15s, and to make up for their "Clone Emplacement Trooper" abilities.  So, say 60 pts.  I'd also say this is a great chance to include different generator upgrades; "Ionic Generator" that adds a black die and the Ion keyword, and "Focused Power Generator" that extends the range of an attack by 1, but only allows you to throw half the die.  

For those worried about balance, the CIS could either get the Geonosian turrets seen in Episode II or during the Geonosis arc of the show, or the double barrel blaster they had in the show. 

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