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Grumbleduke

Pre-Measuring with Raddus, Profundity and/or Hyperspace Assault

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Question that apparently came up during a Worlds game just now (with a ruling against).

When using Raddus, Profundity or Hyperspace Assault, can you use the ship base to check where you can deploy it before you decide to deploy it?

[Disclaimer: as a Raddus/Profundity player, I'm biased towards saying you can. But I will try to reason it out.]

From the rules reference:

Quote

Premeasuring (p9):

  • Players can measure with either side of the range ruler at any time.
  • The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the “Determine Course” step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base.

 

Setup (p10):

Deploy Ships: Starting with the first player, the players take turns deploying their forces into the setup area. A single deployment turn consists of placing one ship or two squadrons.

  • Ships must be placed within their player’s deployment zones. When a player places a ship, he must set its speed dial to a speed available on its speed chart.

 

Q (FAQ v4.1.2, p7): During Setup, can ships and squadrons resolve card effects before they have been deployed?

A: Yes. During Setup, ships and squadrons that have not yet been deployed are in play, and their ship, squadron, and upgrade cards are active, unless that ship or squadron has been destroyed or set aside.

 

Tournament Rules v32: Legal Products

Custom “setup” templates designed to aid players in ship deployment are not allowed. Players can only use their range rulers to help them set up fleets during deployment.

 

Tournament Rules v3.2: Measuring

A player can only use one tool at a time when measuring range, distance, or movement. A tool is defined as the range ruler, the maneuver tool, or another component such as a token.

Wording from the upgrade cards:

  • Raddus: "At the start of any round, you may deploy that ship at distance 1 of a friendly ship."
  • Profundity: "At the start of any round, you may deploy the set-aside ship at distance 1."
  • Hyperspace Assault: "At the start of any round after the first round, the second player can deploy the ship and squadrons that he set aside at distance 1 of 1 objective token."

Arguments for "No:"

  1. The rules do not say explicitly you can pre-measure with a ship.
  2. The rules only say you can pre-measure with the range ruler, or with the maneuver tool at any time.
  3. Ships that are set aside cannot interact with the game (e.g. cannot be assigned tokens), and so (by extension) cannot be in the Play Area unless they have been deployed.
  4. The TRs make it clear you can only use one tool at a time, and cannot use anything other than a range ruler to help you deploy a ship.

Arguments for "Yes:"

  1. When deploying a ship, it is implicit that you can pre-measure using the ship (otherwise you could have to place it exactly where it would go, with no adjustments),
  2. When deploying ships during setup until you declare which ship you are deploying and how fast it is going (by tradition?) you are free to put down one ship, and move, or remove it (implied chess piece rules?), and deploy a different ship instead,
  3. While the TRs say you cannot use custom templates, or use anything other than range rules to help during deployment it is implicit that you can use the ships themselves,
  4. A situation could arise where it would be impossible to deploy a ship (improbable, but possible). Without pre-measuring it may be impossible to determine easily whether the ship can be deployed (e.g. with Hyperspace Assault, if you couldn't deploy around one Objective Token after trying, would you be forced to deploy by a different one?).

Any thoughts? Has this been ruled on before - either officially or unofficially? Would the answer be different in a non-Tournament setting?

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If you're going to use a Ship Base.  You Hover it.  If you place it on the Table, that's it.  Because you should be using the Ship Base itself.

Its an *assumption* that, During deployment, you can freely pick up a Ship you've placed on the Table until you decide "That's it"...  There's no stated Chess Rule.  Its only Implied, thus, That's potentially an incorrect assumption.  

Because, honestly.  I'm not Touching this one.  :D

If the Judge at World's said so, then @i2xCross Said So, and that's more than good enough with me, because if ANYONE has done more Rules Interaction Discussion with Actual Developers than I have...  Its him...  He has a Reason for it.

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Two parts

No, you cannot use the ship base to check deployment spots before declaring that you are dropping that turn. Similar to engine techs and maneuver tool. 

And technically once youve let go of the ship it is deployed, so dont take your finger off it. Communication with your opponent will get you around this part if you want. 

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Yes, but why?

With Engine Techs, it's because the rules and FAQ are clear that you can only use the maneuver tool during the "Determine Course" step.

With deploying ships there's nothing in the rules anywhere about how it works. I get that it is reasonable to say that you can't put the ship down and move it around and then not deploy it (with Raddus, Hyperspace Assault or Profundity), and maybe with initial set-up, but that all has to be extrapolated from other rules by analogy. There's nothing in the rules or FAQ to say that if you take your finger off a ship it is deployed, or that when deploying a ship you can move it around freely, or that you can use the ship base to measure things.

Quote

Because, honestly.  I'm not Touching this one.

And that's why I'm still thinking about this a couple of days later; there are very few rules on what you can and can't do while deploying ships. You can't use templates, you can use the range ruler, but you can only use one thing at once - implying that you can't use both the range ruler and ship while working out where to deploy, only one at once?

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1 hour ago, Grumbleduke said:

implying that you can't use both the range ruler and ship while working out 

I think the difference is that the ruler is listed as a tool you can use to measure at any time.  A ship is not.  A custom clear 6x3 foot measuring template is not.  The mushy old banana I’d stick on the table to repel my opponent from the outpost is not.

If that makes sense?

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Posted (edited)

Also as a Raddus player, the way it works is you declare you are dropping the ship (hyperspace/Raddus/Profundity). Then you can play around with its position. You cannot pick the ship up first and see where it can go then decide not to drop. That's what the ruling was and has always been the way I read the rules

Edited by Jimble

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57 minutes ago, Jimble said:

You CANNOT pick the ship up first and see where it can go then decide not to drop. That's what the ruling was and has always been the way I read the rules

But again, why? Why can you pick the ship up once you've decided to drop, but not before? There's nothing in the rules that says either way - that's just how it has been done (and is reasonable).

Is that how it has always been done with Hyperspace Assault (which has been around a lot longer)?

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

the ruler is listed as a tool you can use to measure at any time.  A ship is not...

Yeah, I thought that might be helpful as well. Until I got to the bit in the Tournament Rules, where they define a "tool" (in the context of measuring) to include "another component such as a [ship?] token." The TRs explicitly rule out using "[c]ustom “setup” templates" and say you can only use range rulers to help with deployment, but then the later bit on measuring implies you can use things other than the range ruler and maneuver tool when measuring range, distance or movement (because it states that you can only use one at once).

That TR would then suggest that you can't use the range ruler and ship base/token while deploying a ship - only one at once. Which just makes things unnecessarily awkward imho (but then I'm a big fan of pre-measuring, so biased).

I get the way the rule seems to have been decided - but even in this thread we've had three different versions of it (you can play with its positioning/you can play around provided you keep a finger on it/you can play around provided it doesn't touch the table). It would be nice to get a FAQ clarifying it; something like "Q. When can a Player use a ship base to measure positioning or distances?"

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Urgh, once again, “justification based on Hyperspace being how it was done”, but really, we can’t reky on that - because rules understanding evolves and things get tightened- we were far mire lax with Hyperspace for example, because it didn’t happen that often and was far more limited in ship size and effect... Raddus is a spur to GET IT RIGHT.

Then we’ve established That at this point we have no guidance (beyond the rules call of the single highest judge we have in Armada) .

So I mean, where there is no specific rule, go to the concept of sportsmanship.

 

Ideally... On the day, at the time, You should look at what you are doing.  

Ask yourself “am I advantaging myself or my opponent here?”

If you’re arguing to do something to advantage yourself - stop. 

Using additional extra components (spare base) or utilizing questionable concepts (“I’m going to place but not deploy yet”), I feel, in my personal way, that you’re stretching, if not breaking, what I consider a core sportsmanship concept.

I wouldn’t do it.

Everything you do, when it’s outside of plain basic, should have an element of risk-reward. Utilising conceits not specified in the rules to gain advantage or mitigate risk is, essentially, not what I consider a good idea at any level of competition.

That could also be why such a question is NOT one I’ve asked of FFG- the very idea someone would try it is anathema to me. 

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The engine techs ruling is just dumb.  A legal movement ruler is speed 4.  If your smart enough to plan ahead, you put down your speed four to check during your normal movement phase and will see where engine tech will put you anyways.  Some ships can get away with this because they dont go speed four however others that do go speed 4 get screwed. 

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29 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

The engine techs ruling is just dumb.  A legal movement ruler is speed 4.  If your smart enough to plan ahead, you put down your speed four to check during your normal movement phase and will see where engine tech will put you anyways.  Some ships can get away with this because they dont go speed four however others that do go speed 4 get screwed. 

Can you manipulate the speed 4 end though, given those specific rules?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

Nothing says you can't manipulate it or have it preset to what you need.  

You can’t preset it 

the rules tell you to pick it up and straighten it first .

 

tgere is also:

 

• When moving a ship, players ignore the segments of the tool that are beyond the final joint to which the ship moves. Those joints may be adjusted to facilitate easy placement and use of the tool.

 

 

Youre supposed to ignore  it 🙂

Edited by Drasnighta

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