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Sarcon

Energy Shells wording

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Hello FFG forums.

 

The Energy Shells action wording is a bit hazy. I think the intention is if you perform the action on the energy card to "reload" the card (reload instruction), you suffer the effects from performing a reload action by getting a weapons disabled token.

However, the RR only describes how the Reload action works (1, choose ordnance, 2 recover charge, 3 get weapons disabled) and that a "reload" instruction is not a "reload" action. I assume you get a weapons disabled from a "reload" instruction, but the rules can be explained in 2 ways.

Option 1) You have a reload instruction for the card, which is not a reload action so you do not follow the steps for reload action, flip back the charge

Option 2) You have a reload instruction for that specific part of ordnance, then follow steps 2 and 3 for the "reload" action.

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Yup.  The RR is slightly poorly drafted when it comes to the Reload section, but the intent is clear to me at least.

 

I'd expect the RR to be updated shortly.  I think they mentioned one was due on the stream the other week but it's held up at LFL.

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Yes there is, which is why I think the intention is that you get the weapons disabled. However, it is not clear in the rules reference that you do since there is no text that addresses how a reload instruction works, only how a reload action works and that a reload instruction is different from a reload action.

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The RRG is quite clear. Compare to Boost or similar rules 

It states that when you perform the Reload (or boost) action the ship reloads (or boosts)

It then goes on to state the steps you take to Reload (or boost)

 

So there should be no doubt that you get the Weapons Disabled token

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47 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

The RRG is quite clear. Compare to Boost or similar rules 

It states that when you perform the Reload (or boost) action the ship reloads (or boosts)

It then goes on to state the steps you take to Reload (or boost)

 

So there should be no doubt that you get the Weapons Disabled token

I disagree, because the RR explicitly says that a "reload" instruction is not a "reload" action. The steps taken under "reload" action are only there for the "reload" action with the reload symbol. There is nothing in the RR that tells you what to do when you get a "reload" instruction. The reference only states that it is not a reload action.

I agree you should get the weapons disabled, I just disagree that it is clearly in the rules. Which is why it needs clarification.

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1 hour ago, Sarcon said:

Yes there is, which is why I think the intention is that you get the weapons disabled. However, it is not clear in the rules reference that you do since there is no text that addresses how a reload instruction works, only how a reload action works and that a reload instruction is different from a reload action.

The issue is, with this interpretation, then the word reload doesn't mean anything and does nothing. You can't really take it to mean "it recovers a charge with no disarm token", as that's just making stuff up.

As humans we can take holistic readings of things, and see that "an X is different from an X action" is boilerplate for stuff like acquire a lock vs lock actions, and that the rules implicitly tell us how to reload by explaining that a ship performing a reload action reloads by... etc. 

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Personally, I can't understand how anyone would be confused, because I think the description of reloading is really similar to the wording of boosting, barrel rolling, jamming, coordinating, as examples of other effects which have actions associated with them.

However, I've witnessed some number of people have been confused by it.  Heck, there's a 35 post thread *ON THIS VERY QUESTION* on p.2 of the questions subforum.

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Posted (edited)

this is super clear, yes. to reload without a reload action, you still have to go through the steps of reloading. lets compare it to jam. all of the other actions have similar descriptions, even though it's not described as locking, focusing, evading etc., since those are states a ship has when it is attempting to assign a lock token to an object, a state a ship has when it has a focus token, a state a ship has when it has an evade token etc. insted, a ship is acquiring a lock, gaining a focus token and gaining an evade token when getting the benefits of those actions without performing the actions.

Capture.jpg


Capture2.jpg

as you can see by comparing the last paragraph in the description of both these effects, it's a standard phrase for every action in the game. this is to enable ships being instructed to execute the effects of actions without being limited by the rules that say you're only able to perform the same action once each round. it's simply design space.

if an ability instructs a player to reload, the player is not performing the reload action, but that player is still reloading. since you're reloading, you have to do what the rules say about reloading. that means you choose a torpedo, missile or device upgrade card that has fewer active charges than it's charge limit, you recover a charge on that upgrade card and you gain a disarm token.

in the case of energy-shell charges, it's more specific.

Swz31_energy-shell-charges.png

you may take an action to apply the reload effect. how ever, you cannot choose a torpedo, missile or device upgrade card, you can only choose the energy-shell charges card. by applying the reload effect, you follow the rules for reloading. the card is already chosen, you recover a charge on it and then you gain a disarm token.

please note that reload is a game term, strictly defined by the rules, so you cannot assume it has any other meaning than what the rules reference describes.

a good card to compare to is gonk.

latest?cb=20180914171032

now i know you cannot reload gonk, since it's a crew and not a weapon, but if it wasn't intended for you to gain a disarm token when you reload energy-shell charges, the keyword reload simply wouldn't have been used. they'd just have written "recover" and been done with it.

of course, it could certainly be clearer, but if you've read the rules reference (i recommend it) front to back and played the game, it's certainly clear enough.

Edited by meffo
locking

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2 hours ago, meffo said:

of course, it could certainly be clearer, but if you've read the rules reference (i recommend it) front to back and played the game, it's certainly clear enough.

I get your reasoning, and I already know how the rule was intended to work. My point is exactly that it could have been clearer. You don’t need to convince me. And trust me, I have read the rules reference and played the game, so no need to be condescending.

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it says "reload THIS card" so players wouldn't think or try to rules lawyer that it gave the ship the reload action to reload things like discord missiles.  you still use the reload steps.

Yes, i'm aware you can't equip both. but you may be able to in the future.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sarcon said:

Agreed, still, could have been clearer.

It would indeed be nice if all the entries were standardized.

  • "When a small ship performs a [Barrel Roll Symbol] action, it follows these steps:" (p. 5)
    • Barrel Roll is surprisingly bad.  Kind of worse than reload.
  • "When a ship performs a [Boost Action Symbol] action, it boosts. A ship boosts by following these steps:" (p. 6)
  • "When a ship performs the [Coordinate Symbol] action, it coordinates. A coordinating ship is a ship that is attempting to coordinate by performing the following steps:" (p. 8 )
  • "When a ship performs the [Jam Symbol] action, it jams. A jamming ship is a ship that is attempting to jam by performing the following steps:" (p. 12)
    • Boost, Coordinate, and Jam are probably the gold standard for this.  Their language is cleanest.
  • "When a ship performs a [Lock Symbol] action, it acquires a lock. A locking ship is a ship that is attempting to acquire a lock by performing the following steps:" (p. 12)
  • "When a ship performs the [Reload Symbol] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:" (p. 15)
    • From the context of all the other actions, I find it completely natural to follow, but that's no reason why the language shouldn't be more standard.
  • "When a ship performs the [Rotate Symbol] action, it rotates the turret arc indicator to select any other standard arc." (p. 16)
  • "A ship performs a [SLAM Symbol] action by performing the following steps:" (p. 17)
    • SLAM perhaps doesn't need it, since there are good reasons why SLAM is so closely linked to specifically the perform action step.

All the other action entries (Calculate, Cloak, Evade, Focus, Reinforce) simply assign a token to your ship, so don't need the same wording.

Edited by theBitterFig

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18 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

it says "reload THIS card" so players wouldn't think or try to rules lawyer that it gave the ship the reload action to reload things like discord missiles.  you still use the reload steps.

Yes, i'm aware you can't equip both. but you may be able to in the future.

Slight issue. Discord missiles are like Proxy Mines and Connor Nets in that all 3 upgrades state on the upgrades themselves that they cannot have their charges renewed by any source.

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It would have been nice if Energy Shells followed the templating of Quinn Jast. Same effect, different wording. Oh well, we know how to Reload Shells, it just could have been phrased better.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Sarcon said:

I get your reasoning, and I already know how the rule was intended to work. My point is exactly that it could have been clearer. You don’t need to convince me. And trust me, I have read the rules reference and played the game, so no need to be condescending.

i apologize, didn't mean to be condescending. you just made me want to explain it in detail to make sure you 100% understood. mostly because of this:
 

13 hours ago, Sarcon said:

I disagree, because the RR explicitly says that a "reload" instruction is not a "reload" action. The steps taken under "reload" action are only there for the "reload" action with the reload symbol. There is nothing in the RR that tells you what to do when you get a "reload" instruction. The reference only states that it is not a reload action.

because the RR tells you what a reload is. it's under "Reload" on page 15 and it's the pic i posted above. i don't understand what's not clear about it.

i 100% agree with @theBitterFigs post above, though. it is pretty obvious that FFG lacks competent technical writers and a lot of their rules could easily be clearer. i would definitely prefer his or her eloquent and precise wording.

Edited by meffo
assuming gender xD

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9 minutes ago, Kanawolf said:

Need to be a point cheaper or have 2 charges.  At least in comparison to other missiles.

🤨 Every ship that can take it is inherently able to reload it via the action on the upgrade itself. The single charge is there to mitigate Vultures, Hyenas and likely Tri-fighters (when they come out) using it in rapid succession from one ship. If it had a second charge it would likely be more expensive than Discord Missiles because of the pseudo Prot nature of the ESC combined with that reload and an extra salvo before needing to use the reload. Its is 4pts because you have to make a choice as to when to bring it back online since it costs your attack and an action the turn you do...

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4 hours ago, Kanawolf said:

Need to be a point cheaper or have 2 charges.  At least in comparison to other missiles.

 

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Every ship that can take it is inherently able to reload it via the action on the upgrade itself. The single charge is there to mitigate Vultures, Hyenas and likely Tri-fighters (when they come out) using it in rapid succession from one ship. If it had a second charge it would likely be more expensive than Discord Missiles because of the pseudo Prot nature of the ESC combined with that reload and an extra salvo before needing to use the reload. Its is 4pts because you have to make a choice as to when to bring it back online since it costs your attack and an action the turn you do...

Hard agree with heimfire here. Energy shell charges are strictly superior to prockets but at half the cost

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I had never actually thought it would give a Disabled token until someone pinged me about it this morning.   I've been playing that it doesn't.   Isn't there an official thread in the main forum that can answer this for us?

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3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I had never actually thought it would give a Disabled token until someone pinged me about it this morning.   I've been playing that it doesn't.   Isn't there an official thread in the main forum that can answer this for us?

Nope, and that is the whole point of why I made this thread. The intention is there (weapons disabled token in the box and use of the word "reload"), but the fact that you missed it and that you're probably not the only one who did, means that it needs addressing.

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21 hours ago, Maui. said:

 

Hard agree with heimfire here. Energy shell charges are strictly superior to prockets but at half the cost

 

On 3/29/2019 at 12:15 AM, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Every ship that can take it is inherently able to reload it via the action on the upgrade itself. The single charge is there to mitigate Vultures, Hyenas and likely Tri-fighters (when they come out) using it in rapid succession from one ship. If it had a second charge it would likely be more expensive than Discord Missiles because of the pseudo Prot nature of the ESC combined with that reload and an extra salvo before needing to use the reload. Its is 4pts because you have to make a choice as to when to bring it back online since it costs your attack and an action the turn you do...

But the other missiles that are 1 point more (cluster and homing) both have 2 charges and have a TL to mid them to full damage (3 and 4).  Yes getting a TL with a low Int ship is a pain.  Calc and Focus are both easier but the Calc is inferior to the Focus.  So my point still stands.  

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On 3/30/2019 at 8:02 AM, Kanawolf said:

Yes getting a TL with a low Int ship is a pain.  Calc and Focus are both easier but the Calc is inferior to the Focus.  So my point still stands. 

Plus, with Target Lock ordnance, you have the option to spend your lock and someone else's calculate (via Networked Calculations) for double-modified attacks. Massed Trade Federation Drones with Cluster Missiles might be interesting. 

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