Jump to content
Truthiness

Two Ship Dominates: Final Regionals 2018-2019 Data Analysis

Recommended Posts

I don't think it's the interceptor or scatter aces causing the trouble.  If I was going to make any changes to the squadron game I'd just get rid of auto-damage abilities and anything that lets a squadron activate or attack more than once a round.  

So Mauler/Ten get new abilities, (maybe deal 1 automatic damage to ONE engaged/nearby squadron, not every single one you can touch) and then get rid of Adar, Jendon, and Yavaris.

My gripe with the power of imp squad balls right now is mostly just that MMJ is all the bombing power they need, and they're incredibly self-reliant.  Rebel bombers have Toryn, Adar, and probably a BCC somewhere nearby on a squishy flotilla that I can go blow up.  MMJ is massive guaranteed damage that doesn't have any weak links that can be hunted.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody really saw Imp squads take over until this regionals season.  These same squads have been used for 3 years or more.  Sloane hasn’t overperformed competitively since release either for close to two years now.  So what changed things?

Pryce did.  She guarantees activation advantage, which translates to 8-12 consecutive hits to the face with those ace squads and a virtually unavoidable ISD front arc.  That’s what’s causing the trouble.  And if you’re not convinced, think about a Rieekan aces list with Pryce.  Last first with B-wings (including Ten Numb) setting up for an unavoidable Yavaris strike.  That’s a dead ISD.  Or just 8 Y-wings with Norra, followed by a command cruiser shot.  Without running Pryce, nothing in these lists is new; moreover, it’s all been surpassed by Rieekan before.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rimsen said:

How do you splash twice in 1 turn with Mauler?!

Also, you are so keen on Imp sauad synergy. Guess what happens with the synergy if a crucial squad falls out? All falls apart....

So it's far from catastrophic... Especially that for 2 years Riekan aces dominated the meta...

Didn't mean double splash got confused because he just always activates when I play against him 

Even without a double splash he can still do near 4-5 damage each game with Chiraneau, where's Ten Numb is speed 2 and heavily reliant on a lucky blue dice even with Toryn, and still then not guaranteed every turn

 

and on the point about 1 squad goes they all fall apart it isn't that simple, if you combine mauler splash plus soontier, I'm taking auto damage from mauler and have to shoot soontier to stop more auto damage, with dengar and howlruller, sooniter can take down half a ball just doing counters. If you don't shoot him and go for howlrunner or dengar you only have 2 turns before your squads get eaten by mauler and soontier auto damage plus counters. and with Pryce they can hit you with FC and EH for 6 squads with a token, all doing 4-5 dice depending on buffs, you can lose a game turn 2 just to that move, trust me.

Where as in a biggs ball, biggs can only take so much damage with braces and his ability once he's down you just have some normal X-wings... 

Once you take soontier down, howlrunner and dengar still buff, you take dengar down soontier damages you and howlrunner still buffs

and I don't disagree about Rieekan aces being dominate, but the correct answer to that is make both sides a more even playing field, whereas they seem to off taken the route of just powering up the imps even more instead. 

 

Squadrons IMO have reached that point where releasing new ones in the vain hope of balancing the remaining ones doesn't seem like it would help, but a full re-evaluation of all squads on both sides would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, duck_bird said:

I don't think it's the interceptor or scatter aces causing the trouble.  If I was going to make any changes to the squadron game I'd just get rid of auto-damage abilities and anything that lets a squadron activate or attack more than once a round. 

This is my main gripe with Chiraneau and Soontier in a ball, no matter what you take it usually dies taking that ball down or crippling it.. the auto-damage really abuses any squads it faces 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, PodRacer said:

Don't even get @EbonHawk going about the versio raider supporting that tie swarm... 

I beat it, but damnnn son that is a sweaty ship! Would recommend to all imperials who want to see Rebel opposites sweat when seeing a raider 

Edited by EbonHawk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Nobody really saw Imp squads take over until this regionals season.  These same squads have been used for 3 years or more.  Sloane hasn’t overperformed competitively since release either for close to two years now.  So what changed things?

Pryce did.  She guarantees activation advantage, which translates to 8-12 consecutive hits to the face with those ace squads and a virtually unavoidable ISD front arc.  That’s what’s causing the trouble.  And if you’re not convinced, think about a Rieekan aces list with Pryce.  Last first with B-wings (including Ten Numb) setting up for an unavoidable Yavaris strike.  That’s a dead ISD.  Or just 8 Y-wings with Norra, followed by a command cruiser shot.  Without running Pryce, nothing in these lists is new; moreover, it’s all been surpassed by Rieekan before.

Have to agree with this, summed up my main feelings, not the squads in general just the recent upgrades that have buffed older ones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Nobody really saw Imp squads take over until this regionals season.  These same squads have been used for 3 years or more.  Sloane hasn’t overperformed competitively since release either for close to two years now.  So what changed things?

Pryce did.  She guarantees activation advantage, which translates to 8-12 consecutive hits to the face with those ace squads and a virtually unavoidable ISD front arc.  That’s what’s causing the trouble.  And if you’re not convinced, think about a Rieekan aces list with Pryce.  Last first with B-wings (including Ten Numb) setting up for an unavoidable Yavaris strike.  That’s a dead ISD.  Or just 8 Y-wings with Norra, followed by a command cruiser shot.  Without running Pryce, nothing in these lists is new; moreover, it’s all been surpassed by Rieekan before.

I played against 3 pryce squad balls at worlds. I won all 3. Pryce has a major fault and can be beaten. With imperials easier than with rebels.

In fact i am not so sure if rebels work, because i have never tried or played with these against pryce, but in theorie.

Pryce want to make use of being last in a turn. If this backfires, and becomes a problem, pryce is beaten. And it backfires when you are in the middle of the combat when she triggers. Suddenly you have to sit there, and wait untill everthing is over to activate the ship with pryce. And in worst case there is nothing left for her to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, EbonHawk said:

Tallon - Jendon

Gallant Haven, Yavaris all nerfed.... threat range unequal to imps

Ten Numb - Speed 2 and rarely scores his hit, meanwhile Mauler can splash damage you twice per turn all game even if engaged without having to rely on Toryn (much much better)

and Dutch and Biggs are nice yes, but I stick to my OP, Imps just have better squads and synergy atm plus nearly every Rebel Gimmick has been given to the Imps in unique cards or just new general cards... AKA Jendon, Mauler, Squall, Flechettes being basically Dutch 

 

Don't get me wrong I love the game, and love playing it, can't wait for the new release but Imps Rn are in a similar power creep to how Rebels were under original Rieekan...

 

There is one mistake you should never do ☺. Do not compare ship upgrades and squadrons and think they are same.

Jendon is a squadron, and being paid from your squadrons. Adar is a ship upgrade, and being paid from ships. Beside the fact that jendon cost twice as much 😀. with ship upgrades it means you have more power in squadrons. And with adar you are able to move twice (so much for a slow teny).

And if you ever saw a ten doing his splash three times in a turn, you will think different. Mauler will do it once. If you are able to do it again in the next turn, your opponent messed up and you would win either way.

I prefer imperial squadrons over the rebel ones, but not because of the specials or effect. It is because of the speed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tokra said:

I played against 3 pryce squad balls at worlds. I won all 3. Pryce has a major fault and can be beaten. With imperials easier than with rebels.

In fact i am not so sure if rebels work, because i have never tried or played with these against pryce, but in theorie.

Pryce want to make use of being last in a turn. If this backfires, and becomes a problem, pryce is beaten. And it backfires when you are in the middle of the combat when she triggers. Suddenly you have to sit there, and wait untill everthing is over to activate the ship with pryce. And in worst case there is nothing left for her to do.

How would you go about taking Pryce out on a turn 2 activation? 

I see the benefits to flat out engaging but most of the time, the damage you eat from the counter can leave you easy to take when Pryce activates.

or would you move squads into a more tactical position around your ships to stop the alpha ship strike, and absorb the first salvo? 

I’ve beaten Pryce with rebels but never had any squads left when doing it, and usually 2-3 (almost always Jedon, Marik, and one of Rudor or Ciena) is left over... I have yet to take out the squad ball and have any left over after which is a lot when you have to take near max squads to counter it as rebels, so losing your squads makes your heavily reliant on the ship damage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tokra said:

And if you ever saw a ten doing his splash three times in a turn, you will think different. Mauler will do it once. If you are able to do it again in the next turn, your opponent messed up and you would win either way.

 

I’ve done this and seen this, but you can also go without it the whole game, and only being speed 2 and without scatter is imo harder to proc and easier to kill 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tokra said:

I played against 3 pryce squad balls at worlds. I won all 3. Pryce has a major fault and can be beaten. With imperials easier than with rebels.

In fact i am not so sure if rebels work, because i have never tried or played with these against pryce, but in theorie.

Pryce want to make use of being last in a turn. If this backfires, and becomes a problem, pryce is beaten. And it backfires when you are in the middle of the combat when she triggers. Suddenly you have to sit there, and wait untill everthing is over to activate the ship with pryce. And in worst case there is nothing left for her to do.

I hope it didn’t sound like I was complaining about the archetype being OP.  Sloane 2-ship is my main list right now.  I love it, but there are things that make the list stumble or cause concerns, as you say.  The point was simply “whatever you may think about 2 ship, Pryce is the heart of it.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tokra said:

I played against 3 pryce squad balls at worlds. I won all 3. Pryce has a major fault and can be beaten. With imperials easier than with rebels.

In fact i am not so sure if rebels work, because i have never tried or played with these against pryce, but in theorie.

Pryce want to make use of being last in a turn. If this backfires, and becomes a problem, pryce is beaten. And it backfires when you are in the middle of the combat when she triggers. Suddenly you have to sit there, and wait untill everthing is over to activate the ship with pryce. And in worst case there is nothing left for her to do.

I agree by and large. I stand by my thoughts that a large part of the community just hasn't had enough experience against two ship. There are counter tactics out there, which Norm, Nathan, Yik and yourself all used incredibly well. I might dabble into videos soon, and counter two ship tactics might be it's first topic.

Rebels are certainly in a harder spot against Pryce, but the counter tactics are there. I went 1-1 against two ship, playing it close both times, and I had zero squad support. Sideways deployment people. It's a thing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EbonHawk said:

How would you go about taking Pryce out on a turn 2 activation? 

You go in on first turn 😊.

It worked at least for me and my list. With speed 5 and squall you are able to reach his squadrons almost everywhere. 

When he say turn 2 with pryce he will have to keep his squadrons at least in range to get to you. Normally this means in range of speed 5 (cienna, saber, stele in my list). 3 more brought into range with squall (mauler, valen, howlrunner). Depending on where he was maybe even a 7th or 8th of my squad were in range. 

In all 3 matches i were able to take out 2-3 squadrons in this first attack. and giving him nothing real to attack, beside maybe cienna (with counter 4). The next turn (pryce turn) he is struck with his carrier ship not being able to activate. This means another 3-4 dead squadrons. Activating them works well because of centicore.

This was at least the way i could handle pryce. This analysis of the regionals did matter for my decission a little bit. But was not the main reason. I were at least prepared for it.

And rebels might work similar, but the lacking speed AND lacking centicore might be a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I wrote in the first page of the thread, worlds would be particularly revealing.

I've had a lot of thoughts turning over in my mind over the past six months.

Regarding two ship Pryce, it may have dominated regionals; my primary opponent placed very highly with it at worlds, 6th.  We've put something like 20 games in with it across a lot of different fleets.  Sometimes, one's experiences are determined by the skill levels of the opponent playing it, and no matter what list we're talking about, the highly skilled players are going to find resources against it.  I'm not sure at this point, based on what I saw at worlds, that I'd highlight anything really specific about the build as a whole.  When you've got a good opponent, their build and overall play will be good enough that 6-5/7-4 are going to be pretty typical scores, with the occasional 8-3/9-2 because one build really just had the perfect match-up for the other.

I do think it is worth looking at general Rebel vs Imperial stats, which for the basic participants reflected the 55/45 split that we saw throughout regionals (49/41), but also reflected the Imperial jump when it cut to the top 40 (24/16).  But then the top 10 became 4 Rebel, 4 Imperial, and 2 that I don't know (Nicholas Brown, Samuel Simon, if anyone remembers their faction or even better lists).  To evaluate some of Truthiness' comments from the article, I'd say Rebels tends to cluster around the big four, but Duckbird's stellar performance with a Madine list shows there's perhaps a broader room for diversity.  But there's also a good mix between squadronless (Truthiness), squadrons at 120+ (Coda, Yik), and something in the middle (Duckbird).   I'm not really sure at what point the squadronless Imperial fleets showed up in the the standings in the top 40, or even those with light squads.  If Tokra's Arquittens got outside the bounds of Truthiness' observation that you can play just 4 ships competitively as the Imperials, then my sense is that squads were a major linking point between many of the highest placing Imperials list rather than ships.  Tons of lists had a lot of Imperial squads in them.   And I think Tokra put his finger on the Rebel difficulty of speed-5, since when combined with Squall, it gives the Imperials an awful lot of threat range.  If I had to pick one nerf that might do something really small, but might be just enough, it would be to make Squall a once per game discard to get the extra movement.  The game is a very fine delicate balance where some of the proposed nerfs might upset that delicate balance.

The bright side is the meta is going to change by the time 3rd Quarter gets here.  We already knew it would change with the SSD, because now you have to account for killing an SSD, and that's probably going to require more carefully about the squadron/ship damage component.  But perhaps in a bigger way, the new campaign pack should shake up the meta in a very good way.

Edited by Vergilius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Assuming you don’t have the bid, how do you stop them from doing the same thing first?  Just curious.

I dont have the bid. The pryce player want to be first and is. But i mean to start the combat on first turn. 

The Pryce lists i faced had boba, bossk and/or morna. their speed is just not enough to be a danger in the first turn. Even worse, they even moved closer to me with squall, to be in range for the second turn. Not sure how it would work against a sloane ace list. But the pryce i faced were thrawn.

And a pryce list, who picked pryce on turn 2 and going in on first turn did something wrong 😊.

Next are the ships. Pryce has 2 or 3 ships and is first. I had 5 ships. I can wait longer.

I am not saying that this is working with all lists, but it worked for me. My opponents should have passes on pryce.

Against sloane i might have deployed different. But it depends on the opponent. I have more deployments, and can wait what he is doing.

I am interessted to read @Truthiness strategic and suggestins.

Edited by Tokra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For everyone's benefit, I grabbed all the lists, and I'll do my best to get EVERYTHING entered and then do some minor analysis of the top 20 or so.  It's not top 10%, but having watched all of you guys playing, the cut-throat nature of play makes top 20 seem more indicative as a whole of what's successful and what isn't.  Soon as I get information....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Chrpica said:

Dengar has Intel which makes anything at range 1 have Heavy, so Mauler can move while engaged.

Fighter Control Teams activates, letting it move for splash 1. When it's activated it moves again, and there's splash 2 plus a shot. 

My guess is if they do anything they'll errata the effects to squads that haven't been activated, but to get double taps off you do need to build for it, so I'm alright with it (even though it bashed me at Worlds). 

FCT and Squall doesn't let you end your movement engaged, and Heavy doesn't cancel engagment, just lets you move or shoot ships

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Vergilius said:

As I wrote in the first page of the thread, worlds would be particularly revealing.

I've had a lot of thoughts turning over in my mind over the past six months.

Regarding two ship Pryce, it may have dominated regionals; my primary opponent placed very highly with it at worlds, 6th.  We've put something like 20 games in with it across a lot of different fleets.  Sometimes, one's experiences are determined by the skill levels of the opponent playing it, and no matter what list we're talking about, the highly skilled players are going to find resources against it.  I'm not sure at this point, based on what I saw at worlds, that I'd highlight anything really specific about the build as a whole.  When you've got a good opponent, their build and overall play will be good enough that 6-5/7-4 are going to be pretty typical scores, with the occasional 8-3/9-2 because one build really just had the perfect match-up for the other.

I do think it is worth looking at general Rebel vs Imperial stats, which for the basic participants reflected the 55/45 split that we saw throughout regionals (49/41), but also reflected the Imperial jump when it cut to the top 40 (24/16).  But then the top 10 became 4 Rebel, 4 Imperial, and 2 that I don't know (Nicholas Brown, Samuel Simon, if anyone remembers their faction or even better lists).  To evaluate some of Truthiness' comments from the article, I'd say Rebels tends to cluster around the big four, but Duckbird's stellar performance with a Madine list shows there's perhaps a broader room for diversity.  But there's also a good mix between squadronless (Truthiness), squadrons at 120+ (Coda, Yik), and something in the middle (Duckbird).   I'm not really sure at what point the squadronless Imperial fleets showed up in the the standings in the top 40, or even those with light squads.  If Tokra's Arquittens got outside the bounds of Truthiness' observation that you can play just 4 ships competitively as the Imperials, then my sense is that squads were a major linking point between many of the highest placing Imperials list rather than ships.  Tons of lists had a lot of Imperial squads in them.   And I think Tokra put his finger on the Rebel difficulty of speed-5, since when combined with Squall, it gives the Imperials an awful lot of threat range.  If I had to pick one nerf that might do something really small, but might be just enough, it would be to make Squall a once per game discard to get the extra movement.  The game is a very fine delicate balance where some of the proposed nerfs might upset that delicate balance.

The bright side is the meta is going to change by the time 3rd Quarter gets here.  We already knew it would change with the SSD, because now you have to account for killing an SSD, and that's probably going to require more carefully about the squadron/ship damage component.  But perhaps in a bigger way, the new campaign pack should shake up the meta in a very good way.

Hey, I'm the guy who came in fourth place. Here is my list: https://armada.ryankingston.com/fleet/39535/

Sam Simon ran a quasar + interdictor + 2 flotilla list with a bunch of squads. Don't know much more than that, though I could get the details if needed, we are both from Southern California.

Edited by GalacticFister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Vergilius said:

As I wrote in the first page of the thread, worlds would be particularly revealing.

I've had a lot of thoughts turning over in my mind over the past six months.

Regarding two ship Pryce, it may have dominated regionals; my primary opponent placed very highly with it at worlds, 6th.  We've put something like 20 games in with it across a lot of different fleets.  Sometimes, one's experiences are determined by the skill levels of the opponent playing it, and no matter what list we're talking about, the highly skilled players are going to find resources against it.  I'm not sure at this point, based on what I saw at worlds, that I'd highlight anything really specific about the build as a whole.  When you've got a good opponent, their build and overall play will be good enough that 6-5/7-4 are going to be pretty typical scores, with the occasional 8-3/9-2 because one build really just had the perfect match-up for the other.

I do think it is worth looking at general Rebel vs Imperial stats, which for the basic participants reflected the 55/45 split that we saw throughout regionals (49/41), but also reflected the Imperial jump when it cut to the top 40 (24/16).  But then the top 10 became 4 Rebel, 4 Imperial, and 2 that I don't know (Nicholas Brown, Samuel Simon, if anyone remembers their faction or even better lists).  To evaluate some of Truthiness' comments from the article, I'd say Rebels tends to cluster around the big four, but Duckbird's stellar performance with a Madine list shows there's perhaps a broader room for diversity.  But there's also a good mix between squadronless (Truthiness), squadrons at 120+ (Coda, Yik), and something in the middle (Duckbird).   I'm not really sure at what point the squadronless Imperial fleets showed up in the the standings in the top 40, or even those with light squads.  If Tokra's Arquittens got outside the bounds of Truthiness' observation that you can play just 4 ships competitively as the Imperials, then my sense is that squads were a major linking point between many of the highest placing Imperials list rather than ships.  Tons of lists had a lot of Imperial squads in them.   And I think Tokra put his finger on the Rebel difficulty of speed-5, since when combined with Squall, it gives the Imperials an awful lot of threat range.  If I had to pick one nerf that might do something really small, but might be just enough, it would be to make Squall a once per game discard to get the extra movement.  The game is a very fine delicate balance where some of the proposed nerfs might upset that delicate balance.

 The bright side is the meta is going to change by the time 3rd Quarter gets here.  We already knew it would change with the SSD, because now you have to account for killing an SSD, and that's probably going to require more carefully about the squadron/ship damage component.  But perhaps in a bigger way, the new campaign pack should shake up the meta in a very good way.

More of a general meta-related comment:

How will the meta be shaken up you think?

At this point only two things are actually important IMO:

- the activation game

- the squadron game

So what is coming that could change these?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...