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Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

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18 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Is a 14 point bid too aggressive for Aethersprites in this meta? Ani w/ 7b & R2 + Mace w/ 7b + 104th Battalion Arc is exactly 186 points and I'm not sure what more one needs in the list for it to work. I'm trying to outbid Triple Imp Aces because Vader moving last makes me sad.

14 points should basically guarantee you winning the choice, bidding doesn't currently get that deep at 4 or 6 I don't think.

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12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

14 points should basically guarantee you winning the choice, bidding doesn't currently get that deep at 4 or 6 I don't think.

Okay, I suppose 10 shall suffice for now then. It's really just a question of if Mace get's the R2 Astromech or not, which I think 7B Aethersprites need to take. Too many points wrapped up on an X-wing body to not a have a little plan B insurance I think.

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41 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Is a 14 point bid too aggressive for Aethersprites in this meta? Ani w/ 7b & R2 + Mace w/ 7b + 104th Battalion Arc is exactly 186 points and I'm not sure what more one needs in the list for it to work. I'm trying to outbid Triple Imp Aces because Vader moving last makes me sad.

it is a silly bid.

If you cannot outmatch Vader moving last, try an other strategy than leaving 14 pts on the table.

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9 minutes ago, Comte Oseric said:

it is a silly bid.

If you cannot outmatch Vader moving last, try an other strategy than leaving 14 pts on the table.

It's not 14 points on the table though; It's a 14 point upgrade for Anakin that reads "You may always move last; even after enemy ships of the same initiative". And Vader is spooky as heck against 7Bs, so yeah I'm not just gonna try to outmatch him with three 3 attack ships. 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

It's not 14 points on the table though; It's a 14 point upgrade for Anakin that reads "You may always move last; even after enemy ships of the same initiative". And Vader is spooky as heck against 7Bs, so yeah I'm not just gonna try to outmatch him with three 3 attack ships. 

If moving last is an issue against one ship, you could grab sense or an informant, leaving yourself a few more points for other options.  I guess my take is that if your bid is big enough to fit a dial reveal upgrade and still have room for more upgrades, then I'd go that route instead of a 14 point bid.

Edited by AlexW

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1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

It's not 14 points on the table though; It's a 14 point upgrade for Anakin that reads "You may always move last; even after enemy ships of the same initiative". And Vader is spooky as heck against 7Bs, so yeah I'm not just gonna try to outmatch him with three 3 attack ships. 

ya, and this is a bit a Design flaw from many player's perspective:  these point should be accounted somehow.  But this is an other topic.

 

I always find it fishy when someone build a list that is basically a counter-list for one specific ship.  Your list (and play style) should stand VS everything out there.  Not only 1 ship out of 7 factions.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I am late to the party and have several questions on which I'd love to hear some opinions. Apologies if some were answered over the last 9 pages. It's not necessarily list specific, but if in doubt: the list I have in mind is Anakin, Mace (both 7B) and a third aethersprite.

1. R4P17: better on Mace (for the lock/boost/roll) or better on Anakin to shed stress on top of the other options?
2. Related to 1), is afterburners on Anakin not better than R4P17? If you get in range/bullseye you get an extra action while Mace only gets his one action anyway.
3. R2 on Anakin saves a lot of points, potentially. Do you see that droid as must-have or nice-to-have?
5. Is heightened perception on Mace a thing? Does it make sense? Out of all the Jedi, he should be the one who can handle the additionally spent force best.
6. Is R4 on Mace a thing? He is also the Jedi who likes most to sloop/kturn, so he should benefit most from this droid. Even though none seem to mind being stressed once in a while...

My answers to these questions lead to the Anakin-7B-R2 + Mace-7B-r4p17 build, maybe afterburners on top. That leaves 45-51 points for a third ship. If that 3rd ship is another aethersprite, I see 3 options I consider:

7. Luminara at 44pts. She plays the sensor jammer, preferably staying out of the fight but in range 2 of one of the other two ships. I have no clue whether that works well. Maybe occasionally throwing her into the brawl is a better idea. She allows afterburners on Anakin, or a 7pt bid, or CLT, or something like heightened perception on Mace.

8.  Ahsoka at 47pts. Leaves no room for afterburners, 4pt bid or a mech, or synchronized console even. But spending force on her ability does leave her more vulnerable, so I'm not sure how well that works in practice.

9. Saesee at 44pts. I like the idea on paper that she makes Mace and especially Anakin very flexible. But imo she really calls for an R4 on at least Anakin, maybe both.

 

All three have tougher force management though. So which one would you add and why?

Edit:

There are 5 lists I want/did try:
Anakin Mace Ahsoka
Anakin Mace Luminara
Anakin Mace Saesee
Anakin Mace Wolffe
Anakin Mace 104th

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I am late to the party and have several questions on which I'd love to hear some opinions. Apologies if some were answered over the last 9 pages. It's not necessarily list specific, but if in doubt: the list I have in mind is Anakin, Mace (both 7B) and a third aethersprite.

1. R4P17: better on Mace (for the lock/boost/roll) or better on Anakin to shed stress on top of the other options?
2. Related to 1), is afterburners on Anakin not better than R4P17? If you get in range/bullseye you get an extra action while Mace only gets his one action anyway.
3. R2 on Anakin saves a lot of points, potentially. Do you see that droid as must-have or nice-to-have?
5. Is heightened perception on Mace a thing? Does it make sense? Out of all the Jedi, he should be the one who can handle the additionally spent force best.
6. Is R4 on Mace a thing? He is also the Jedi who likes most to sloop/kturn, so he should benefit most from this droid. Even though none seem to mind being stressed once in a while...

My answers to these questions lead to the Anakin-7B-R2 + Mace-7B-r4p17 build, maybe afterburners on top. That leaves 45-51 points for a third ship. If that 3rd ship is another aethersprite, I see 3 options I consider:

7. Luminara at 44pts. She plays the sensor jammer, preferably staying out of the fight but in range 2 of one of the other two ships. I have no clue whether that works well. Maybe occasionally throwing her into the brawl is a better idea. She allows afterburners on Anakin, or a 7pt bid, or CLT, or something like heightened perception on Mace.

8.  Ahsoka at 47pts. Leaves no room for afterburners, 4pt bid or a mech, or synchronized console even. But spending force on her ability does leave her more vulnerable, so I'm not sure how well that works in practice.

9. Saesee at 44pts. I like the idea on paper that she makes Mace and especially Anakin very flexible. But imo she really calls for an R4 on at least Anakin, maybe both.

 

All three have tougher force management though. So which one would you add and why?

My opinions:

1) Better on Mace but I'd wouldn't choose it over R4 for mace, Anakin would do better with r2 and a extra point bid insted of R4p17.

2) I agree afterburners is better in 2 ways a) you can spend the force to remove the stress which in effect is like if you spent a force to do a boost anyway then you can perform your action b)  leaves the astro slot open for r2

3) I see R2 as a must have, 2 more shields should be worth 10 points minimum. It's so easy to Regen then as well with the 5k and other dial options.

4) for some reason you missed 4?

5) Mace is the best carrier for HP and could definitely be a thing. Every list I've played so far has preferred the Extra 3 points bid so not tried it yet. 

6) Yes! 1 hards being blue is increable! Definitely my go to for Mace 

7) Lumi would be your best shout however I don't know how good a Delta is without the 7b configuration.  Fitting a arc or torrents is possibly a better bet tbh. 

8 ) Ashoka wants 7B. full stop. 

9) tiin is Intresting but means r4 is probably being taken on ani and loses the value of r2. There's a strat their that includes 3 Delta's with r4 but not sure if its top dog. 

 

Edited by K13R4N

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Posted (edited)

I've got 7 games in now with Anakin, Mace or  Ashoka and 2 torrents. I've varied the load out to try to find the combos that "click" the most for me.

So far my thoughts are that R2 on Anakin is a must. On Ashoka I prefer the same, while on Mace I find R2 or R4 both can be good depending on how aggressively you play him, due to him wanting to do reds to top up his force (force management is the key to getting these ships to really shine).

To be honest I've yet to use the full regen potential in more than one game, but just knowing I can run away and regen makes me more relaxed and daring to push the ships a bit more to get my damage in.

I look at Sense as a worthwhile investment too. I put it on Anakin (though Mace would be a more efficient carrier) as my thinking is that he will be my end ship and if I'm facing another PS 6 moving after me I'd really be using that Sense. It is expensive though and the paradox is that if I don't equip it I could have a 6 point bid...then again I can think of several lists with PS6 that would have a deeper bid. This goes both if I have Ashoka or Mace. Being able to get a good block in or allowing my lower PS ships to dodge is golden.

I think that if I was going to run Ani, Mace and Luminara as you suggested I'd use this

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Republic&d=v6!s=200!273:75,2,201,:;314:72,5,201,:;274:,,,:&sn=Unsaved Squadron&obs=

Anyways- glad to see you on this tread too Green Dragoon. 

Edited by Samurai33
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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I am late to the party and have several questions on which I'd love to hear some opinions. Apologies if some were answered over the last 9 pages. It's not necessarily list specific, but if in doubt: the list I have in mind is Anakin, Mace (both 7B) and a third aethersprite.

1. R4P17: better on Mace (for the lock/boost/roll) or better on Anakin to shed stress on top of the other options?
2. Related to 1), is afterburners on Anakin not better than R4P17? If you get in range/bullseye you get an extra action while Mace only gets his one action anyway.
3. R2 on Anakin saves a lot of points, potentially. Do you see that droid as must-have or nice-to-have?
5. Is heightened perception on Mace a thing? Does it make sense? Out of all the Jedi, he should be the one who can handle the additionally spent force best.
6. Is R4 on Mace a thing? He is also the Jedi who likes most to sloop/kturn, so he should benefit most from this droid. Even though none seem to mind being stressed once in a while...

My answers to these questions lead to the Anakin-7B-R2 + Mace-7B-r4p17 build, maybe afterburners on top. That leaves 45-51 points for a third ship. If that 3rd ship is another aethersprite, I see 3 options I consider:

7. Luminara at 44pts. She plays the sensor jammer, preferably staying out of the fight but in range 2 of one of the other two ships. I have no clue whether that works well. Maybe occasionally throwing her into the brawl is a better idea. She allows afterburners on Anakin, or a 7pt bid, or CLT, or something like heightened perception on Mace.

8.  Ahsoka at 47pts. Leaves no room for afterburners, 4pt bid or a mech, or synchronized console even. But spending force on her ability does leave her more vulnerable, so I'm not sure how well that works in practice.

9. Saesee at 44pts. I like the idea on paper that she makes Mace and especially Anakin very flexible. But imo she really calls for an R4 on at least Anakin, maybe both.

 

All three have tougher force management though. So which one would you add and why?

Edit:

There are 5 lists I want/did try:
Anakin Mace Ahsoka
Anakin Mace Luminara
Anakin Mace Saesee
Anakin Mace Wolffe
Anakin Mace 104th

1.   I think that's up to you, but if your list is imbalanced, you probably want to keep Ani alive and so putting more points in him that can help you to do that (and bank more) is probably the right choice.

2.   Probably, if you have the points.

3.  Depends on the rest of your list, but since you are going with 3 ship list, I'd say so.

5.  Probably a nice to have, but it suddenly does make you want to use more force, and I think that's always the drawback.

6.   The Sprite, plus Fine-Tuned Controls, leave you a ton of options.   I also don't find I'm really K-turning that much with him, but YMMV.

7-9  If it's a Jedi, I think Snips is the best choice here since she's going to be able to provide the most in any matchups.  Sorry, but If Jedi are a thing, I think Luminaara with no upgrades is a bad choice.  I played against her in the final round of a tourney  with my 2xJedi list and she didn't do anything.  Since she had been kept cheap (which I think is a good way to run her), she didn't have any offense either, even with the force for mods.    I'm not a fan of Tiin  for a similar reason since you are only bringing him to change your dial.   I think in this case you want a ship that is going to provide something regardless of the matchup, and I don't think the points left here for Tiin or Lum work here.   

I think Wolffe is your best add.   Great offense and will be a target for your opponent (and if not, is going to hit pretty hard).   I think if you want three Jedi, Anakin is a tough place to start the list.

 

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2 hours ago, K13R4N said:

My opinions:

Thanks! Just tried HP on Mace, and didn't work for me. He has 3 force, but addint abilities that use even more force seems difficult to handle at best. I missed R4 and would have preferred that one to r4p17. I also had Ashoka in there and I agree that she (and probably Luminara and Saesee too) really wants the 7B.

38 minutes ago, Samurai33 said:

I look at Sense as a worthwhile investment too.

Thanks for your thoughts! I see the same problem for sense as I do with heightened perception. Sense has the benefit that I don't have to spend a force, so it might be an interesting alternative to afterburners.

19 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think Wolffe is your best add.   Great offense and will be a target for your opponent (and if not, is going to hit pretty hard).   I think if you want three Jedi, Anakin is a tough place to start the list.

Also thank you for all the points, I quoted that line because I fully agree! I didn't see the benefit of Ahsoka's two actions too much in my one game, but that was probably due to my own mistakes. But playing her also has me doubting the worth of Luminara and Tiin some more.

 

I agree by now that an ARC as third ship really is the better option, reminds me even more of late 1.0 imperial with the gunboat. Luminara, Ahsoka or Tiin all three want the 7B too much. I'm not 100% sure on R2 vs R4 vs R4P17 for Mace, but I'll have to try that some more. I'm also going to try Cody on Wolffe with R4 on Mace at 200pts. I doubt that it's very useful, but it adds a small control element and provides opportunities to mess up. A 3pt bid is the better choice I guess, but I'll see how often I get it. The afterburners are a nice addition if I have the points, and Sense/HP are using a lot of force. Though sense might be worth considering if I have the points. Which is sadly not the case with Wolffe or 104th+7th gunner

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@GreenDragoon I have played a wolfe/mace/ani list multiple times now and I have to see its doing really well. Wolfe always dies first but as long as you trade well he is not a big part of the list so killing a Leia carrier or wedge (one game I was able to kill a kraken carrier) is so worth it. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

 A 3pt bid is the better choice I guess, but I'll see how often I get it. 

Definitely worth the 3 point bid. Not just for anakin but so mace can move after the I4s (4x Phantom list). Try Cody though and see how he does.

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Man I disagree strongly with what others have posted, and my experience is quite different.

Saeese is nice. I like him with Sense and CLT. Pairs nicely with Mace, as the ability to block an I6 is quite useful to let Mace get in and lay the hit

P17 on Mace is the way to go, IMO, unless Anakin is in the list, in which case I give Anakin P17. Mace gets an R4 then.

Ahsoka is great with nothing but CLT. The secret to the support Jedi is keep them cheap, the CLT is great value on a ship that is support, as your opponent will often have to chose dodging the bullseye, but sacrificing position to your hammer to do so.

Luminara isn’t that great. I’d take Ahsoka any day over her.

R2 is overrated for the 7b. Especially Mace and Anakin who will be doing red moves to stay engaged more.

I am not a fan of the Jedi with no config, too many points for not enough offense. The only one I may bring at that rate is Ahsoka, as the free coordinate can always be useful. But CLT is 4 points, so use that.

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21 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Man I disagree strongly with what others have posted, and my experience is quite different.

Thanks for mentioning this! It's always hard not to jump to conclusions when my experience of 3 games fits so well with what the others said. (I've played my third game in the meantime, with Wolffe +cody - and yes, cody didn't work because Wolffe is too good :P)

For one, I think it's interesting that the astromech is so important.

  • I would love to have R2 on both, but I'd argue that it's primary worth is to control the halfpoints - so far Mace always went from 3h or 3h1s to 0  in a single turn if he died.
  • R4 on Mace is great and I did miss it once on Anakin so far.
  • R4P17 is more unclear to me. As mentioned, I prefer afterburners on Anakin if I have the points. I wonder what your opinion is on that? And I mainly use it to get an extra offensive mod on Mace/Anakin, which is IMO nice to have but not crucial. Though of course the right mod to take out a ship is game changing on its own.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Thanks for mentioning this! It's always hard not to jump to conclusions when my experience of 3 games fits so well with what the others said. (I've played my third game in the meantime, with Wolffe +cody - and yes, cody didn't work because Wolffe is too good :P)

For one, I think it's interesting that the astromech is so important.

  • I would love to have R2 on both, but I'd argue that it's primary worth is to control the halfpoints - so far Mace always went from 3h or 3h1s to 0  in a single turn if he died.
  • R4 on Mace is great and I did miss it once on Anakin so far.
  • R4P17 is more unclear to me. As mentioned, I prefer afterburners on Anakin if I have the points. I wonder what your opinion is on that? And I mainly use it to get an extra offensive mod on Mace/Anakin, which is IMO nice to have but not crucial. Though of course the right mod to take out a ship is game changing on its own.

Yeah P17 is used by me primarially to take the target lock when I move into range 1 behind a ship, as I’ve done many times. But I’ve also been flying a fair bit of Supernatural Mace, who is a holy terror.

As for afterburners, I can’t say. It’s been a matter of points, I’ve never had the points to spend for it. I can’t say I’ve missed it though, partly because the aforementioned Supernatural Mace. However I can see it being useful. I prefer P17, because sometimes the BR is what you need, sometimes you’re spot is perfect and the lock is best. P17 is cheaper than Afterburners, and more flexible since the most likely time you’d want it is after a K-turn.

Now why not both, you may ask? Well I’ve been flying them with an Arc. I’ve settled on Wolffe as the best for a double Jedi list. Taking AB would require downgrading to a 104th. Still very good, but I think for me Wolffe>AB on one Jedi. Plus then my list is 3 I4s, which has a nice synchronicity in it. But that’s a subjective preference choice. I could change other upgrades and get a copy, but I’ve been pleased so far and never really felt the need. But if your play style/ list favors that, I can see the utility.

I will say I’ve had initiative every game, with a matching high, or higher, initiative ship across from them. And yet I’ve won all my games with Mace, Saeese, and Wolffe. I also beat 5 Empire 5’s with only Mace and Anakin, narrowly. All my other games with jedi have been a mix, and I think the general mix of two heavies and a support oriented third works. Doesn’t matter which two heavies they are, be it an Arc or 7b. A third CLT Jedi works wonders along side the beat sticks.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, millertime059 said:

Luminara isn’t that great. I’d take Ahsoka any day over her.

Tell that to the list that made finals at our hyperspace trials. Luminara, Wolffe,Jag,ps2 arc all with tail gunner. Lumi kept those arcs alive lot longer than they should. Every Jedi has an ability that I think is useful in one way or another. It's a nice spread of abilities to complement different types of playstyles and archetypes.

Edited by wurms

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10 minutes ago, wurms said:

Tell that to the list that made finals at our hyperspace trials. Luminara, Wolffe,Jag,ps2 arc all with tail gunner. Lumi kept those arcs alive lot longer than they should. Every Jedi has an ability that I think is useful in one way or another. It's a nice spread of abilities to complement different types of playstyles and archetypes.

Agreed, I think she's overall can be strong.  She's just going to struggle in a meta that has a good number of force users.

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5 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

So I got my first Jedi table time in today.  The three force Jedi hit like a truck AND dodge like an ace.  Has anyone tried an Anakin/Obi-Wan/Mace list?

That only works if you take two CBT (or three) or take CBT on Mace and DeltaB on the other two, which I think is less than ideal.

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Posted (edited)

Just a thanks to all of you for this discussion, I've peeked but then built my own list with obi wan, 2 jedi's and a v19.

Got my head (well, not my head, but I'm being polite)  handed to me by my wife playing 2 phantom + 2 adv x1

Twice.

Can't arc dodge with my list as well as she can, came away thinking "I dont know how to fly these ships!" Which isn't bad because neither of us have a lot of experience.

I'll follow some of the above  suggestions now.

Thanks again!

Edited by Adun42

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14 hours ago, Clutterbuck said:

So I got my first Jedi table time in today.  The three force Jedi hit like a truck AND dodge like an ace.  Has anyone tried an Anakin/Obi-Wan/Mace list?

I did delta Ani, Delta Mace and butt naked Obi. Do not recommend. Obi is just a slap fight with all the beef and running scared with 4 health. I'd rather have an Arc for his points. Keep opponents a bit more honest since it can hit like a truck and tank a hit. 

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Looks like a quiet weekend for our Jedi.  Only squad that I could find did well was an Obi+3Arc list (and there weren't many even in the lists at all).   Anyone else see one that did well?

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I had some reasonable success with a Double Delta 7b + ARC list in a small kit tourney. It was Anakin w/ 7b, r2 astromech; Mace w/ 7b; 104th Battalion Pilot. 186 pts total. Overall, it was a very enjoyable list to fly. Most engagements involved a few turns of running around the board with the Aethersprites to get the high ground on positioning. I was quite impressed by Mace, however, I think that he should always be ran with R4 Astromech. He was stressed so often from sloops and k turns that it would have made quite the difference; especially in knife fights with blue 1 hard turns. 

Anakin is great, but I'm still perplexed on which Astromech choice is the best for him. R2 isn't bad, but it feels like R4-P17 might end up accomplishing more in the goal of keeping him alive and in the fight. The points difference is essentially negligible, so it's really a flying preference call. For now, I think I'm going to try going with R4-P17 for it's "in case of emergency" nature. 

The third ship is... just kind of the there if you want have a decent bid. I used the ARC-170 and it was decent. It performed as expected. It seems to go down quick in this meta with so many beefy, high ship count lists, so I'm considering changing out the naked ARC-170 with a Jedi Knight w/ R4 Astromech. I figure I might be able to keep the ship alive for significantly longer than the arc due to 3 green dice and arc dodging IV 2s.

Overall though, Aethersprites are in a fantastic place. I'm very much enjoying the ones with 3 force tokens. I find myself using fine-tuned controls almost every single turn, so their maneuverability is superb; especially with their "I do what I want" dial. They feel more like better A-Wings when they're not in the engagement phase and if they have 7b, they're going to be hitting consistently harder than X-Wings. The only issue with them is how expensive they are, but they might actually be worth the cost. With careful execution, they seem to be able to do a whole lot of different things well in the game.

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