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Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, millertime059 said:

So I tried Super 7b Mace. He is very good. Just as unblockable as predicted, and was able to hit like a truck. ... Took on both B-wing aces solo no problem. The rest of my list pinned the rest.


Yea, that's how I build Mace, too.  The real test, though, is how he fares against highly maneuverable I5+ stuff.  I've certainly struggled to utilize him well against stuff that repositions easily and moves after Mace, which to be fair, could be largely due to player incompetence.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Yea, that's how I build Mace, too.  The real test, though, is how he fares against highly maneuverable I5+ stuff.  I've certainly struggled to utilize him well against stuff that repositions easily and moves after Mace, which to be fair, could be largely due to player incompetence.

Yeah that’s a concern. Which is why I may swap Wolffe in, a bigger solo offensive threat to try and take some heat off.

The thing most concerning is the 4x5’s of the resistance. They have more ships, higher Initiative, similar levels of movement shenanigans, and also have two ships with rear arcs. I think the big thing there is the ability to Sense (Which is why I have it, explicitly for Resistance 5’s) and the medium base blocking potential of Wolffe while still maintaining credible offensive threat.

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The other thing is that so many people are either in the I5&6 only, or massed generics, that there is t a lot of play at the I3,4 levels. Some ships, but not many, see play there.

So I’ve been intentionally opting out of that. All but refusing to play I6’s, despite knowing they’re good (and being very good with Soontir personally). Basically flying a lot of middle ships, as a way to do something different, as well as get better.

See I think people get so hung up on moving last, taking high I with a bid, that they forget how to play without that. ‘Oh we both have three ships at the same initiative step, but I lost the roll, so I guess I lost the game!’ Is certainly a sentiment you see bandied about.

But the truly good players can overcome that, or even use that to their advantage. Oh, hey, my opponent has Wedge and he is moving after my Soontir, guess Soontir is going to die! No, don’t give in! Leverage what you have, play smart instead of relying on moving last.

So it is with Mace. 83 points for an I4 ship with cool tricks that is unpredictable. That’s fantastic, but how to use him when he moves first? I think you can, but you have to be smart about it. People just get so caught in the initiative/ bid wars that they’ve forgotten how to play otherwise.

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

The biggest issue with initiative is getting init killed. That just sucks. Fortunately, the i3/i4 Jedi have a 3pt way around that. 

It's weird to think of Heightened Perception being good, but if you're confident in your maneuvering choices, sucker punching the target before they have a chance to take you down is really cool for those mid initiative pilots.

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53 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It's weird to think of Heightened Perception being good, but if you're confident in your maneuvering choices, sucker punching the target before they have a chance to take you down is really cool for those mid initiative pilots.

Or sometimes it's just to get a cheap hit in and try to strip token's to take the sting out of an attack on your higher value ships. 

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2 hours ago, millertime059 said:

The other thing is that so many people are either in the I5&6 only, or massed generics, that there is t a lot of play at the I3,4 levels. Some ships, but not many, see play there.

So I’ve been intentionally opting out of that. All but refusing to play I6’s, despite knowing they’re good (and being very good with Soontir personally). Basically flying a lot of middle ships, as a way to do something different, as well as get better.

See I think people get so hung up on moving last, taking high I with a bid, that they forget how to play without that. ‘Oh we both have three ships at the same initiative step, but I lost the roll, so I guess I lost the game!’ Is certainly a sentiment you see bandied about.

But the truly good players can overcome that, or even use that to their advantage. Oh, hey, my opponent has Wedge and he is moving after my Soontir, guess Soontir is going to die! No, don’t give in! Leverage what you have, play smart instead of relying on moving last.

So it is with Mace. 83 points for an I4 ship with cool tricks that is unpredictable. That’s fantastic, but how to use him when he moves first? I think you can, but you have to be smart about it. People just get so caught in the initiative/ bid wars that they’ve forgotten how to play otherwise.

I've seen that at my FLGS. One of the regulars just flat out can't play unless he's got Soontir or Anakin moving last.

 

I had the bid last game I played with him, and he immediately fell apart and pretty much lost within the first 4 turns.

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Myself and another guy at my FLGS have been talking a lot in the last year about whether a bid is worth it or not.  We've come to the conclusion that generally it isn't.  I play a lot of Fenn Rau, I played a lot of Fenn Rau at the end of 1.0, I got used to moving first with all of the PS10 and 11 ships in the meta back then. 

When I run him now it's not with a deep bid.  The last list I took to tournaments clocked in at 199 with Fenn and Han both I6 and that was only because I couldn't find a place to spend that single point that I was happy with.  I didn't really care who moved first, If I did then that meant Han SHOT FIRST.  Han was rockin' Hot Shot Gunner so that just meant that I stripped a Focus for Fenn to then light them up or at the very least hurt their offense.  If I moved last, that's fine with me as well since it gives Han a chance to arc dodge and let's Fenn close to range one easier.

Some lists inherently want a bid to keep their king piece alive by arc dodging, I don't generally build lists that way anymore.

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Posted (edited)

Bids are super valuable when it comes to TL and ordinance. There are also some overlaps at i4 (named strikers/vermeil) where you can adapt on reveal to adjust after your opponent moves. That can be key in getting a shot or not. 

But, if you have initiative, just know how to be a blocker and know that you can strip off token's shooting first and reduce your opponents offense. 

There's merits both ways. 

Edited by viedit

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, millertime059 said:

So it is with Mace. 83 points for an I4 ship with cool tricks that is unpredictable. That’s fantastic, but how to use him when he moves first? I think you can, but you have to be smart about it. People just get so caught in the initiative/ bid wars that they’ve forgotten how to play otherwise.

FWIW, I have zero issues with playing I4 ships and don’t think that’s the issue for me with this load out.   (The list I run has 1I5 and 2I4s with no bid which is basically like running all 4s.). My concern for me would be an 80+ point investment in that ship.   If you can manage it, that’s great.

Edited by AlexW

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I played Mace, Sinker, and two blue squadron protectors. First match Mace melted to a pair or ARCs. Second match let my ARC and Vs distract Wedge as Mace looped around to catch Wedge from the side.

With the Calibrated Laser Targeting, full force, and a focus was able to kill Wedge and defend nicely against my opponents U-Wing. 

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Posted (edited)

I've been hesitant to respond to this thread, but I'll say that I've played 5 games over the last couple weeks with a couple different variants of Ani + Mace + thing.  I'm 5-0 and in those games I think Mace (Delta title) has lost 1 shield over the course of those games.  Jedi are stupid efficient.  I come from *A LOT* of T70 reps and I don't know if I can go back to them now.  With the title Mace and Ani are doing 3 hits at a better than 80% consistency.  And you still have a force or two on tap for defense.  The dial is bonkers level of "do what you want" and the 5k is just mean to so many lists.  

If you throw heightened perception on Mace and fly him conservatively (aka - not fast, don't over boost, and cast a wide net on stuff higher init that you) and then HP at the start of engagement you can absolutely thump things in combination with Ani from the other side.  

The ability to basically run stress free, have a TL and 2-3 soft focus every turn is so liberating vs just about any other chassis it's hard for me to go backwards now.  The delta title is not overpriced.  Jedi are not overpriced.  And multiple force charges provide you so many get out of jail cards you can't even begin to explain the value.  Hotshot gunner?  Who cares.  Juke?  Fine.  Blocked?  Whatever.  Blinded pilot?  The card says I can do what I want.  Pull a 5k?  I still have mods.  And so on.  5 games in I'm still trying to fully absorb what exactly is happening, but it's mostly around the fact that I'm consistently chucking 2 attacks with 3 dice at i7/i6 and doing 3 hits almost every time.  

The third(or 4th) ship can be pretty much whatever suits you.  A cheap 3rd jedi than can buff the others.  A tanky arc.  Two blocking Torrents.  Whatever. They are just distractions and pulling shots away from your hitters. 

Play them cagey for most of the game and then lunge in when you are certain you have a good attack.  Things just melt in front them.  I've been broken by just how efficient they are and I don't know where to move from here.

Edited by viedit

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4 minutes ago, viedit said:

Play them cagey for most of the game and then lunge in when you are certain you have a good attack.  Things just melt in front them.  I've been broken by just how efficient they are and I don't know where to move from here.

You gotta play Sabers every once in a while to keep your edge.  Just for a change of pace, I started playing with high Initiative X-wings this week (Wedge/Luke/Thane supported by Jake).  It feels so easy compared to Interceptors, and what I felt is pretty much what you describe.  You can just dial in a move and get mods with Luke, and you don't have to worry about initiative kills on the X-wings for a couple turns usually.  It's all good.

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2 minutes ago, viedit said:

Blocked?  Whatever.

Opening engagement with Mace, the two named B’s are chugging towards him. I’m along the board edge and my opponent sets up in such a way that my maneuver puts me at range 1 of Braylen, and Range 2/3 of Ten after he BR focuses Braylen. If I execute my maneuver (3 bank) I mau not be able to get out of Braylen’s arc, and if I do definitely put myself at range 2 of ten with probably no shot to do it.

So I supernatural barrel roll to deliberately bump Braylen. Now I have a range 3 shot at Ten, with a range 3 in return. I figure that favors me, even without an action. Turns out I was right. Chipped one damage and took none in return. It was the only shot Mace took all game. The ability to say ‘I’d rather bump here’ and have mods for defense is quite handy.

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17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

You gotta play Sabers every once in a while to keep your edge.  Just for a change of pace, I started playing with high Initiative X-wings this week (Wedge/Luke/Thane supported by Jake).  It feels so easy compared to Interceptors, and what I felt is pretty much what you describe.  You can just dial in a move and get mods with Luke, and you don't have to worry about initiative kills on the X-wings for a couple turns usually.  It's all good.

No doubt.  I've got my merit badges running saber lists, as well as plenty of bruises and scars running a bunch of strikers.  Jedi are so....not those lists it's not even funny.  Between the shields, passive mods, stress free economy and offensive mods it's like you aren't even playing the same game.

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3 hours ago, SavouryRain said:

I've seen that at my FLGS. One of the regulars just flat out can't play unless he's got Soontir or Anakin moving last.


In my five years of competitive X-Wing, I'd say that this actually describes quite a lot of the "top tier" players, too.  Never underestimate how much heavy-lifting being able to move last and reposition does for someone's X-Wing performance.

When you find recorded top table games where there are Overlapping-PS Aces, go ahead and count up how many times the player who is forced to move first wins.

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56 minutes ago, viedit said:

I've been hesitant to respond to this thread, but I'll say that I've played 5 games over the last couple weeks with a couple different variants of Ani + Mace + thing.  I'm 5-0 and in those games I think Mace (Delta title) has lost 1 shield over the course of those games.  Jedi are stupid efficient.  I come from *A LOT* of T70 reps and I don't know if I can go back to them now.  With the title Mace and Ani are doing 3 hits at a better than 80% consistency.  And you still have a force or two on tap for defense.  The dial is bonkers level of "do what you want" and the 5k is just mean to so many lists.  

 If you throw heightened perception on Mace and fly him conservatively (aka - not fast, don't over boost, and cast a wide net on stuff higher init that you) and then HP at the start of engagement you can absolutely thump things in combination with Ani from the other side.  

 The ability to basically run stress free, have a TL and 2-3 soft focus every turn is so liberating vs just about any other chassis it's hard for me to go backwards now.  The delta title is not overpriced.  Jedi are not overpriced.  And multiple force charges provide you so many get out of jail cards you can't even begin to explain the value.  Hotshot gunner?  Who cares.  Juke?  Fine.  Blocked?  Whatever.  Blinded pilot?  The card says I can do what I want.  Pull a 5k?  I still have mods.  And so on.  5 games in I'm still trying to fully absorb what exactly is happening, but it's mostly around the fact that I'm consistently chucking 2 attacks with 3 dice at i7/i6 and doing 3 hits almost every time.  

 The third(or 4th) ship can be pretty much whatever suits you.  A cheap 3rd jedi than can buff the others.  A tanky arc.  Two blocking Torrents.  Whatever. They are just distractions and pulling shots away from your hitters. 

 Play them cagey for most of the game and then lunge in when you are certain you have a good attack.  Things just melt in front them.  I've been broken by just how efficient they are and I don't know where to move from here.

I agree with basically everything you said. 

I have played a ridiculous number of games with Not-Supernatural Kylo and enjoyed a very consistent win rate ( almost entirely due to force charges ). 

Kylo doesnt even need to move last to win games, force charges just bail him out. Jedi are the same way but subject to less stress and able to spend more time on target. 

Republic lets you take 2 Kylos in a list with room for toys. Its incredibly strong. 

3 Force Charges is the key to all of it.  Jedi have an absurdly high floor, and a considerably higher ceiling with just a tiny bit of patience/thought. 

My first reaction to playing Jedi was that they are immediately some of the very best aces and pocket aces in the game.

More games have only re-enforced that and made it clear that they are not just fantastic aces, they are also semi-direct fully modified stressless X-Wings. 

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

Jedi are not overpriced.  And multiple force charges provide you so many get out of jail cards you can't even begin to explain the value.  

So, I wanted to highlight this because you, like me, and other people I have seen having strong, positive results seem to be running ships with three force.   I think it’s very likely the difference between two and three force is kind of break point, especially when you look at the cost difference between something like Mace and Ahsoka.

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10 minutes ago, AlexW said:

So, I wanted to highlight this because you, like me, and other people I have seen having strong, positive results seem to be running ships with three force.   I think it’s very likely the difference between two and three force is kind of break point, especially when you look at the cost difference between something like Mace and Ahsoka.

Oh Ahsoka is amazing too.

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28 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Oh Ahsoka is amazing too.

And that's where list building gets so personal and really separates players from one another. You can go support in Ahsoka, tanky beef in Wolffe, wierd beef and support with 104th + Palp. 2 torrent. Whatever. You do you. And it's probably fine. Because that's your personal touch on the list. You've got 145'ish points locked in between Ani and Mace. Do what you want and it will be fine so long as you know how to run it. 

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So against Anakin Wolffe and a bid (so I moved first) it was a bludgeoning. My concerns are somewhat abated about higher I lists. Republic 4x5’s still has me nervous, but I feel confident on anything less.

The Mace hype is real.

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Is a 14 point bid too aggressive for Aethersprites in this meta? Ani w/ 7b & R2 + Mace w/ 7b + 104th Battalion Arc is exactly 186 points and I'm not sure what more one needs in the list for it to work. I'm trying to outbid Triple Imp Aces because Vader moving last makes me sad.

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