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Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

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11 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:

Anakin can take evade+2 force, which is basically a focus. And he can take TL+3 force, or 2, or 1. All with no cost, no stress, and the ability to pull it off again right after a red. Poe can't do that, unless he he limits his dial to greens. Anakin can use his entire dial as much as he wants.

Oh, Poe is the best. After he took 6 damage, he lives, and then can regenerate with R2.

Anakin is dead after 6 points, thats why Poe is so much better then Anakin.

Also if blanks out, he has heroic and can reroll. Anakin cant do that.

Also, he can use a white evade action. Anakin only has a purple one.

Also, he gets +1 dice when shooting through rocks. Anakin cant do that.

Also, with Leia, he doesnt get stressed by red manouvers and doesnt need range 1 or BE enemies like Anakin.

Also, he has the better haircut then Anakin....

(dont take this serious please. Or any similar post)

 

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14 hours ago, Rangor said:

Poe can get TL + Focus or Evade + Focus. 

Just to note - only if you invest in Debris Gambit. 

15 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:

Anakin can take evade+2 force, which is basically a focus. And he can take TL+3 force, or 2, or 1. All with no cost, no stress, and the ability to pull it off again right after a red. Poe can't do that, unless he he limits his dial to greens. Anakin can use his entire dial as much as he wants.

Poe gets 2 'true' actions in return for coping with stress, Anakin gets 1 action plus force-related shennanigans - which is close but slightly more restrictive  - if you spend more than 1 force (because you want to use force as pseudo-focus and you get multiple eyeballs, for example), you aren't stressed (great because no dial implication) but you do take 2+ turns to get back to full force charge.

Both have their advantages.

Anakin's red-move-spend-force-dump-stress, for example, is better than pattern analyser - yes, it eats force, but both he and Poe get 1 action, but Poe can't use his ability without double-stressing himself, whilst Anakin could in theory loop again next turn.  Predictive Shot sounds nice in theory, too, if hunting for bullseye shots (it's certainly cheaper than calibrated targeting, but again eats force).

Poe has a massively tougher and more powerful machine. Even in a Delta-7B, Poe has 3 shields and 4 hull, giving him 2 hit points advantage, a heavy laser cannon adds similar firepower to calibrated laser targeting at much lower cost , and it's hard to overstate the 'where the heck did he go now?' option of Black One. 

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One thing everyone is forgetting is this is not a whos better thread but rather the Delta is underrated thread. The fact that people are comparing Anakin and Co to Poe and his T70 Wing mates proves this thread to be correct. 

During this discussion of Poe Vs Ani, people are coming to the agreement that they are both good in their own way and one thing we can all agree on is Poe is definatly good. Likewise if Poe is good and people believe Anakin is a comparison of Poe then Anakin must also be good in his own way. Sure maybe not everyone agrees but this thread has shown the majority of people think they are at least reasonablly priced.

@prauxim Congrates the thread is a success 👍

But wait... If most people think they are half desent then...dun dun duuun.... Are they underrated?!?

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

One thing everyone is forgetting is this is not a whos better thread but rather the Delta is underrated thread. The fact that people are comparing Anakin and Co to Poe and his T70 Wing mates proves this thread to be correct. 

During this discussion of Poe Vs Ani, people are coming to the agreement that they are both good in their own way and one thing we can all agree on is Poe is definatly good. Likewise if Poe is good and people believe Anakin is a comparison of Poe then Anakin must also be good in his own way. Sure maybe not everyone agrees but this thread has shown the majority of people think they are at least reasonablly priced.

@prauxim Congrates the thread is a success 👍

But wait... If most people think they are half desent then...dun dun duuun.... Are they underrated?!?

Good conclusion.

Now tell me what to pair Anakin with. 😁

And is there another good delta?

Edited by Rangor

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4 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Good conclusion.

Now tell me what to pair Anakin with.

And is there another good delta?

Ahsoka is very good. She's cheap, doesn't need upgrades but works in a variety of buils,  and has an extremely powerful ability (probably the best of the bunch). Luminara might be good, but her ability is probably one that needs to be testet properly and maybe also built around. She will get a lot better when/if the Republic can start stacking jam actions with evades and Juke though.

Seasee is, at least on paper, a great wingman for Anakin, but not all that useful without him. Mace looks like he would be reliable and consistent and a great carrier for Battle Meditation. I'm lukewarm on Obi-Wan, Plo and Bariss, and I don't really see the value of the generic Jedi Knight. It just looks like a more vulnerable Inquisitor with a worse dial, worse action bar and a higher cost. Maybe there's some interesting BM shenanigans?

I do wonder, though. Been using this forum for a while, and the general consensus seems to be that I3-4 is a flat out bad place to be. I sort of agree that there have been too many 566 and 22222 lists going around, but after playing predominantly 3s and 4s the past couple of months, I've noticed I'm winning just as much as I did running triple Imperial aces. Of the six releases out for the new factions, there are 40-50 pilots, with only I6, and only three I5s. None of the Jedi are below I3, most sit at I3-4, and the V-19, ARC and Belbullab aces hardly seem like they'll take on Poe and Fenn one to one. Does this mean that people will a) skip the factions entirely, b) run only Anakin/Maul plus a bunch of I1-2 generics, c) desperately try to get 556 Jedi to work, only to be beaten down by Empire, Resistance and Scum players, or d) come around and actually play the I3-4 pilots?

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3 minutes ago, Okapi said:

I don't really see the value of the generic Jedi Knight. It just looks like a more vulnerable Inquisitor with a worse dial, worse action bar and a higher cost.

Of course, if you're flying Republic, Inquisitor isn't exactly an option.

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4 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Ahsoka is very good. She's cheap, doesn't need upgrades but works in a variety of buils,  and has an extremely powerful ability (probably the best of the bunch). Luminara might be good, but her ability is probably one that needs to be testet properly and maybe also built around. She will get a lot better when/if the Republic can start stacking jam actions with evades and Juke though.

Seasee is, at least on paper, a great wingman for Anakin, but not all that useful without him. Mace looks like he would be reliable and consistent and a great carrier for Battle Meditation. I'm lukewarm on Obi-Wan, Plo and Bariss, and I don't really see the value of the generic Jedi Knight. It just looks like a more vulnerable Inquisitor with a worse dial, worse action bar and a higher cost. Maybe there's some interesting BM shenanigans?

I do wonder, though. Been using this forum for a while, and the general consensus seems to be that I3-4 is a flat out bad place to be. I sort of agree that there have been too many 566 and 22222 lists going around, but after playing predominantly 3s and 4s the past couple of months, I've noticed I'm winning just as much as I did running triple Imperial aces. Of the six releases out for the new factions, there are 40-50 pilots, with only I6, and only three I5s. None of the Jedi are below I3, most sit at I3-4, and the V-19, ARC and Belbullab aces hardly seem like they'll take on Poe and Fenn one to one. Does this mean that people will a) skip the factions entirely, b) run only Anakin/Maul plus a bunch of I1-2 generics, c) desperately try to get 556 Jedi to work, only to be beaten down by Empire, Resistance and Scum players, or d) come around and actually play the I3-4 pilots?

I think this hits the nail on the head pretty well (Though remember you have Odd-Ball as an I5 for both the V-19 and ARC).

I think what you are going to see a lot of with both the Republic and CIS is lists with a power ace/command ship and then being filled out with Generics. The CIS doesn't seem like it has another option unless you go double Infiltrator. There might be a couple of more ace based Republic lists but whether they will be competitive with the ace lists of other factions is a good question, as they will likely have lower initiative. I don't know, it will be certainly be a test to how strong the Force really is.

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42 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Good conclusion.

Now tell me what to pair Anakin with. 😁

And is there another good delta?

Luminara without anything and 3 arcs came second in some tournament. Shes pretty good without a config at all, anything equiped just makes her even more of a priority.

12 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:

I think I would break down the pilots in the following way:

Solid: Anakin, Mace, Ahsoka

Alright: Obi-wan, Saesee, Luminara, Jedi Knight

Below Par: Plo Koon, Barriss

 

Id agree with that, mace destroys anyone whos under I4 but the rest of your list will need to counter I5s and I6s hard! Ashoka is good but definitly the hardest to play in regards to force management. 

The only reason to take Obi is if you want a I5 with 3 force. 

18 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Seasee is, at least on paper, a great wingman for Anakin, but not all that useful without him. 

This. Seasee is a very intresting pilot who I look forward to testing soon. With R4 her and ani can go anywhere its IMO a version of SNR. I dont know if it will be all that worth it though as taking her probably means your giving up on a different piece which will most likely be more effective.

22 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Does this mean that people will a) skip the factions entirely, b) run only Anakin/Maul plus a bunch of I1-2 generics, c) desperately try to get 556 Jedi to work, only to be beaten down by Empire, Resistance and Scum players, or d) come around and actually play the I3-4 pilots?

I dont think people will skip the faction. Anakin and Maul will proably be the most played ships especially with the I2 generic arc and 20 point droids. 556 Jedi is true desperation, go to resistance if you want that. When people start winning stuff because they have bargin abilities with I3/4 ships the sheep (followers) will try it out and then miserable fail because they dont know how to fly without board knowledge.

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I'm not really sure all-Jedi lists can hit hard enough, that might not be the intention of the faction.

I think my favourite kind of Republic list will be Anakin with the rest made up of cheapish Arcs and (maybe) Torrents.

Then loads of yellow and chrome when the Naboo Starfighter comes out 😀

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1 hour ago, K13R4N said:

Luminara without anything and 3 arcs came second in some tournament. Shes pretty good without a config at all, anything equiped just makes her even more of a priority.

Yeah, no-config to reduce her priority/token usage this. Maybe R2 to beef her up. Luminara's like a mini pre-nerf 1.0 palp, her ability may be the best of them all, esp for the price.

Bariss is really situational but should prob have a few good triggers per game, esp if you run several CLT. And he is priced basically like an I4 generic.

Didn't like Seasee, and she really wants other deltas to have R2, so lots of opportunity cost. Maybe just need to get better at using her ability. Make more sense the higher you wing-mates Initiative is or if you run Sense.

Sense seems good if you run several low-PS, needs more testing though. 

Maybe Sense + R2 is good, regen if you learn via Sense you wont have a shot.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Okapi said:

Ahsoka is very good. She's cheap, doesn't need upgrades but works in a variety of buils,  and has an extremely powerful ability (probably the best of the bunch). Luminara might be good, but her ability is probably one that needs to be testet properly and maybe also built around. She will get a lot better when/if the Republic can start stacking jam actions with evades and Juke though.

Seasee is, at least on paper, a great wingman for Anakin, but not all that useful without him. Mace looks like he would be reliable and consistent and a great carrier for Battle Meditation. I'm lukewarm on Obi-Wan, Plo and Bariss, and I don't really see the value of the generic Jedi Knight. It just looks like a more vulnerable Inquisitor with a worse dial, worse action bar and a higher cost. Maybe there's some interesting BM shenanigans?

I do wonder, though. Been using this forum for a while, and the general consensus seems to be that I3-4 is a flat out bad place to be. I sort of agree that there have been too many 566 and 22222 lists going around, but after playing predominantly 3s and 4s the past couple of months, I've noticed I'm winning just as much as I did running triple Imperial aces. Of the six releases out for the new factions, there are 40-50 pilots, with only I6, and only three I5s. None of the Jedi are below I3, most sit at I3-4, and the V-19, ARC and Belbullab aces hardly seem like they'll take on Poe and Fenn one to one. Does this mean that people will a) skip the factions entirely, b) run only Anakin/Maul plus a bunch of I1-2 generics, c) desperately try to get 556 Jedi to work, only to be beaten down by Empire, Resistance and Scum players, or d) come around and actually play the I3-4 pilots?

I'm definitely in camp b. One super Ace + Bid + Generics seems like what is being pushed with both factions. I can't think of any other reason as to why the Aethersprites are so conservatively costed, while their comrades in generic ARC-170s are so cheap. Unfortunately, it seems like Republic list building is simply going to be variants of generics + 1. 3 Arcs +1, 2 Arcs + 1, 2 Arcs, 1 V-19 + 1, and so on.

I really wish they would lower the costs of almost all of their named pilots though, as the faction can't afford to explore its own variety because of the EXTREME  price hikes from the lowest IV generic pilots on the clone ships to the named pilots. Does Odd ball really need to be 52% more expensive than the base generic for target locks under extremely limited circumstances? Does Sinker deserve to be 28% more for +1 IV and some re-rolls for the two (scratch that, the V-19 died in 2 shots before shooting like always) one shot for his buddy? That's the real issue with Aethersprites and Republic in general. Everything except the lowest IV generics is a bad deal, so you're forced to take them to compensate for the (overcosted???) Aethersprite just to have enough of a team to work with. Then, all of your games are just a matter of trading generics with only focus tokens with the bulk of your enemies fleet and hoping you can clean up what's left with your Jedi Ace. 

FFG somewhat fumbled this faction launch; it certainly would be nice if they could adjust them before July.

Edited by ThinkingB

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Okapi said:

I do wonder, though. Been using this forum for a while, and the general consensus seems to be that I3-4 is a flat out bad place to be. I sort of agree that there have been too many 566 and 22222 lists going around, but after playing predominantly 3s and 4s the past couple of months, I've noticed I'm winning just as much as I did running triple Imperial aces. Of the six releases out for the new factions, there are 40-50 pilots, with only I6, and only three I5s. None of the Jedi are below I3, most sit at I3-4, and the V-19, ARC and Belbullab aces hardly seem like they'll take on Poe and Fenn one to one. Does this mean that people will a) skip the factions entirely, b) run only Anakin/Maul plus a bunch of I1-2 generics, c) desperately try to get 556 Jedi to work, only to be beaten down by Empire, Resistance and Scum players, or d) come around and actually play the I3-4 pilots?

Yeah Im def gonna try hard to make 4x I3-4 deltas work. Just need to decide if I want 4x JK with upgrades, 4x I4, or just give up on same PS and fly 3344.

My buddy got 6-0, 1st in swiss at the Austin HT with 4x PS3 T70s (Heroic RSEs+Jess). Unfortunately he got sick the day of the cut. Have seen it crop up in top 16 a few other times. There's no real synergy other than Jess, just beef + blocking against aces + flexibility of same-PS maneuvering. The archetype isn't played as much but it definitely has potential, esp now with all of the anti-ace measures introduced.

I dislike Plo enough that I think if I was flying trip it'd be Ani/Obi + Saesee, Ahsokoa or Luminara. 

Edited by prauxim

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10 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

I'm definitely in camp b. One super Ace + Bid + Generics seems like what is being pushed with both factions. I can't think of any other reason as to why the Aethersprites are so conservatively costed, while their comrades in generic ARC-170s are so cheap. Unfortunately, it seems like Republic list building is simply going to be variants of generics + 1. 3 Arcs +1, 2 Arcs + 1, 2 Arcs, 1 V-19 + 1, and so on.

I really wish they would lower the costs of almost all of their named pilots though, as the faction can't afford to explore its own variety because of the EXTREME  price hikes from the lowest IV generic pilots on the clone ships to the named pilots. Does Odd ball really need to be 52% more expensive than the base generic for target locks under extremely limited circumstances? Does Sinker deserve to be 28% more for +1 IV and some re-rolls for the two (scratch that, the V-19 died in 2 shots before shooting like always) one shot for his buddy? That's the real issue with Aethersprites and Republic in general. Everything except the lowest IV generics is a bad deal, so you're forced to take them to compensate for the (overcosted???) Aethersprite just to have enough of a team to work with. Then, all of your games are just a matter of trading generics with only focus tokens with the bulk of your enemies fleet and hoping you can clean up what's left with your Jedi Ace. 

FFG somewhat fumbled this faction launch; it certainly would be nice if they could adjust them before July.

I'm probably putting Anakin, a 104th and two Golds on the table myself as well, but generally I don't think the Jedi are overcosted. There might be some internal costing issues (I don't see why I'd take Bariss or a generic over Luminara og Mace, for instance). Wolffe, Jag and Sinker also seem pretty decent.

But regarding the V-19, yeah. The named pilots are almost strangely expensive compared to the Gold, maybe so much so that I expecting exactly none of them to hit the table. The ship looks like a budget TIE Bomber, right? The price difference between a Scimitar and Rhymer is 8 points, and both are considered pretty decent. Gold and Kickback (whose ability seems considerably less useful than Rhymer's)? 11 points. Even the I3 ship is 4 points over the I2, which makes absolutely no sense. I kinda get the impression that the Gold initially was 27 or so points, and then suddenly dropped right before release. Would at least partly explain the discrepancy.

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18 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Yeah, my buddy got 6-0, 1st in swiss at the Austin HT with 4x PS3 T70s (Heroic RSEs+Jess). Unfortunately he got sick the day of the cut. Have seen it crop up in top 16 a few other times. There's no real synergy other than Jess, just beef + blocking against aces + flexibility of same-PS maneuvering. The archetype isn't played as much but it definitely has potential, esp now with all of the anti-ace measures introduced.

I dislike Plo enough that I think if I was flying trip it'd be Ani/Obi + Saesee, Ahsokoa or Luminara. 

My triple version is a battle meditation Jedi with Ani and Obi

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Battle Meditation won't work on the named guys, right? 

Ah yeah, Ive built BM list a few times then realized this lol

Edited by prauxim

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Doh, forgot that

Is there an all-delta BM list that makes sense then? Named + 3 JKs?

Obi + 3x JK CLT fits, but the BM carrier winds up without a focus and becomes the clear target for FF

Ahsoka CLT BM + JK 7B + JK CLT is 200, no late PS advantage but she can trigger on red maneuvers before the JKs activate, winds up being a more flexible double SN

Edited by prauxim

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Obi-Wan Kenobi — Delta-7 Aethersprite 53
Battle Meditation 13
Delta-7B 17
Ship Total: 83
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Seventh Fleet Gunner 9
Ship Total: 63
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 5
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Ship Total: 54
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 5

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:
Obi-Wan Kenobi — Delta-7 Aethersprite 53
Battle Meditation 13
Delta-7B 17
Ship Total: 83
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Seventh Fleet Gunner 9
Ship Total: 63
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 5
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Ship Total: 54
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 5

Yeah not crazy about BM Obi, I think he wants to always focus so he can negate focus-fire.

Also 7th + PTorps is overkill, you can't use them at the same time. You can give it to Obi but if he BMs he has only force for mods.

Edited by prauxim

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29 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:
Obi-Wan Kenobi — Delta-7 Aethersprite 53
Battle Meditation 13
Delta-7B 17
Ship Total: 83
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Seventh Fleet Gunner 9
Ship Total: 63
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 5
   
104th Battalion Pilot — ARC-170 Starfighter 42
Proton Torpedoes 12
Ship Total: 54
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 5

I posted an almost identical list on another thread :)

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