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prauxim

Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Rangor said:

You every played them yourself? Seems not. Its not 2 actions. Cant take target lock focus. Poe can.  

If Anakin uses FTC to Boost then takes a Target Lock he still has two Force left to mod his dice.  If Poe Boosts then takes a Target Lock then he can't modify eyeballs after the rerolls.  Afterwards Anakin can 1 hard, sloop or kturn behind Poe who is stuck doing a blue maneuver.  If he is moving first, Anakin may be able to clear his stress and take an action as well.

Edited by Burius1981

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1 minute ago, Burius1981 said:

If Anakin uses FTC to Boost then takes a Target Lock he still has two Force left to mod his dice.  If Poe Boosts then takes a Target Lock then he can't modify eyeballs after the rerolls.  Afterwards Anakin can 1 hard, sloop or kturn behind Poe who is stuck doing a blue maneuver.  If he is moving first, Anakin may be able to clear his stress and take an action as well.

So the answer is no, you havent. Sometimes, you are forced to spend force, then start your next turn with 1 force. 

Not saying Anakin aint good, he is good. But you argue quite one sided without having any experience

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2 minutes ago, Rangor said:

So the answer is no, you havent. Sometimes, you are forced to spend force, then start your next turn with 1 force. 

Not saying Anakin aint good, he is good. But you argue quite one sided without having any experience

I don't understand what you mean.  I was showing an example of what Anakin in a D7 can do as opposed to Poe.  What does experience have to do with what he is or isn't capable of in the game mechanics.

I'm thinking that you read my post with the wrong tone, I've got nothing but love for you man, I was just showing an example, that's all.  If Anakin blows his (force) load then yeah, he is going to have a bad time.  The right call then is to GTFO and disengage for a round or two.

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17 minutes ago, Rangor said:

You every played them yourself? Seems not. Its not 2 actions. Cant take target lock focus. Poe can.  

Yes I have "every played" them. Hard to remember the different when Force/TL only does 8% less damage than Focus/TL. I did remember the 70% more damage after a red when Anakin's ability triggered though.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Burius1981 said:

I don't understand what you mean.  I was showing an example of what Anakin in a D7 can do as opposed to Poe.  What does experience have to do with what he is or isn't capable of in the game mechanics.

I'm thinking that you read my post with the wrong tone, I've got nothing but love for you man, I was just showing an example, that's all.  If Anakin blows his (force) load then yeah, he is going to have a bad time.  The right call then is to GTFO and disengage for a round or two.

Out of context.

To help you out, i answered to someone who said Anakin is much better pointwise then Poe and then cherrypicked the reasons.

You answered with an example in which Anakin is equal or better, cause he started with full force.

I agree that Anakin is better in a lot of situations, but not better in all.

I really like him.

 Unlike Poe, he lacks options for company sadly.

Edited by Rangor

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1 minute ago, Rangor said:

Selective reading - its a gift.

Just like stupid people, selective readers manage to feel good when they really shouldnt.

haha man sure. seems like your having a bad day, hope it gets better

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5 minutes ago, prauxim said:

haha man sure. seems like your having a bad day, hope it gets better

Seems like you dont get the context of my post and then say a random 8%. Not only is the number completly wrong, it doesnt matter at all.  

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Rangor said:

To help you out, i answered to someone who said Anakin is much better pointwise then Poe and then cherrypicked the reasons.

I listed several advantages to justify the and you picked a single case where Poe has a slight advantage, and I cherry picked? I had already mentioned Frc/TL vs Foc/TL in my OP.

Where did I say "much better"? I didn't even say better. What's cherrypicking called when you invent the cherry?
 

1 minute ago, Rangor said:

Seems like you dont get the context of my post and then say a random 8%. Not only is the number completly wrong, it doesnt matter at all.  

Its the difference in expected hits against 2die defense. Its a bit simplified but not wrong, the difference is less for 1die and higher for 3die. How can it it not matter?

Edited by prauxim

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I listed several advantages to justify the and you picked a single case where Poe has a slight advantage, and I cherry picked? I had already mentioned Frc/TL vs Foc/TL in my OP.

Where did I say "much better"? I didn't even say better. What's cherrypicking called when you invent the cherry?
 

Its the difference in expected hits against 2die defense. Its a bit simplified but not wrong, the difference is less for 1die and higher for 3die. How can it it not matter?

Yes, cause I DID NOT ANSWER TO YOU!

 

EDIT: Oops, i did in fact answer to you.

Makes your answers even more disturbing.

To make it short:

Quote

Still 2 actions, but no stress

This is wrong.

You dont get two actions.

You can swap one force against one movement action, even during a red manouver.

Poe gets two actions. Poe can get TL + Focus or Evade + Focus.  Both cant be done by the sprite.  But you act as if its the same.

I agree with most of your initial posts points.

But this "aint blabla worth 10 points" is so out of context. You mix up stuff you cant compare.  You dont show Poes advantages. (hint, poe wins in upgrades, poe wins in wingmates, ...).

You argue one sided. which is the only thing i brought up.

 

 

Edited by Rangor

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15 minutes ago, prauxim said:

8%:

Its the difference in expected hits against 2die defense. Its a bit simplified but not wrong, the difference is less for 1die and higher for 3die. How can it it not matter?

Which range? Are you attacker or defender? If defender,did you use your focus on attack? Any other ships abilities involved? Obstacles? Crits?

Since you answered random 8% to a non asked question, its ofc wrong. Its cause the chance of you getting the right situation is 4.3791%.

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52 minutes ago, Rangor said:

You every played them yourself? Seems not. Its not 2 actions. Cant take target lock focus. Poe can.  

Rangor makes a valid point here that illustrates the Aethersprites function quite well - they’re not ‘killing’ ships in the sense that you’ll be dealing consistent high damage with them (with TL+focus). 

I think they’re a somewhat weird concept closer to a “support Ace”? It’s not a exclusive role (Mace and Anakins abilities for example are more aggressive / selfish) but they’re not really strong finishers. 

I could see them working quite effectively with torp carrying N-1s. Ashoka, for example, passing actions to lock or focus or Obi Wan sustaining N-1 focus tokens for defence and then offence or just battle meditation. More of a fulcrum ship than the hammer or the anvil. 

The combination of config + force powers though seems prohibitively expensive and Brilliant Evasion especially so.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Brilliant Evasion is terrible, I genuinely don't know why people like it.  It would be questionable over a bid at 2 points, let alone 6.

Hate is so good for its 3 points, the light side needs something similar.

I was hoping for brilliant evasion to be 1 point, so it would be like heroic, might as well pick it, but maybe it will have no use all game. 6 points is completly weird.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah.  Battle Meditaion could have been it, limiting it to Republic is a little disappointing.

Also another upgrade hopelessly overpriced in my eyes.

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1 hour ago, Rangor said:

 

This is wrong.

You dont get two actions.

Boost/roll + something else is quite literally and indisputably two actions. Poe and Ahsoka (and occasionally Nien) are fairly unique in that they can perform any actions they like, but that doesn't mean jedi, Interceptors and for that matter any old action-linkers aren't performing two actions. Poe gets flexibility at the cost of a stress token, while jedi get to keep their dial open at the cost of a more limited action selection.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rangor said:

You dont get two actions.

You can swap one force against one movement action, even during a red manouver.

Poe gets two actions. Poe can get TL + Focus or Evade + Focus.  Both cant be done by the sprite.  But you act as if its the same.

I agree with most of your initial posts points.

But this "aint blabla worth 10 points" is so out of context. You mix up stuff you cant compare.  You dont show Poes advantages. (hint, poe wins in upgrades, poe wins in wingmates, ...).

You argue one sided. which is the only thing i brought up.

I already mentioned differences between Delta's econ and straight up 2 actions in my post, including Force/TL vs Focus/TL and several other ones that are in favor the delta. Too cumbersome to repeat them all every-time I refer to it. "Dual Econ" is probably a better term than "2 actions" though.

Poe doesn't have evade, you mean Debris Gambit?

This is a waste, we have the same basic opinion. You are arguing against a claim you invented. "I answered to someone who claimed Anakin is much better pointwise then Poe". I never said anything even close to that.

Edited by prauxim

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Here's a thing.

I think people undervalue being able to do certain things without stress. It's becoming more common, which I think is a bit of a shame, I don't want the art of it to get lost....

But what most struck me with the Delta is exactly that. Being able to do a lot of what they do, double repo or repo and mod, passive mod, knife fight, break away (regen everywhere), all without having to get particularly stressed, is massive.

You can do all that and be straight back in on something, fully charged, almost effortlessly. That's where the options and adaptability will really shine. Blue moves are always predictable and can be made into unrecoverable positions.

Then ofc, you add the PA or Leia droid, R4, Ahsoka, Anakin etc etc etc.

 

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On 3/25/2019 at 3:52 PM, theBitterFig said:

Anyhow, here's a list I've got packed, I call it the Three Master Shuffle.  Kinda similar to @rhetor 's list, but I wanted all Init 4.  Synced Console instead of bid, since I want to see how it feels.  There could easily be someone who's in a good position to Lock, and maybe they don't need it and can pass it along.  Everyone's droid is picked to try to leverage their pilot ability, or at least allow more options for it.  Mace has the Pattern Analyzer droid, to take an action after a red move.  Luminara protects others, so I gave her the regen, if she's the first target.  Saesee Tiin can adjust people's dials somewhat, so I gave him the option to use the hard turns on his own.  Obvious downside to the list is only being mid-tier Initiative.

  • Mace Windu (7B, R4-P19, Synced Console) 69
  • Luminara Unduli (7B, R2 Astromech, Synced Console) 66
  • Saesee Tiin (7B, R4 Astromech, Synced Console) 64

So I got to see this on the table tonight.  Loaned it to a friend who didn't have the new wave stuff yet.  I beat it with Maul, 2 Vultures, and a 79 point Grievous, but it seems more like a throw-away match.  I won the init roll, so Grievous was moving last, and my opponent opened with a joust.  Granted, this separatist list doesn't have a very nasty swarm of vultures to joust against, but it took him a few turns to start to open things up with how these Aethersprites work and move.

Synced Console also felt decent.  It happened often enough that locks went unspent and got passed to someone else.  Granted, in this particular game the Jedi would have been well-served with a deeper bid, but still.

//

I'll say one additional thing: A very cool force talent to see later would be one which would let you take an action to regain a force charge.  I'd call it "Battle Meditation" but that name is already taken.  So many Jedi have such cool abilities, and being able to take an action to do nothing but gain an extra use of it could be worthwhile.

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For me the idea that Poe has a worse dial than Anakin is hilarious considering that he's basically married to R4, and Poe has a one straight. Further Poe can take torpedoes and natively double mod them, which is a massive firepower advantage that Anakin has no hope of equaling.

I don't like to consider ships in vacuums because they're always part of a list. The Republic equivalent of three Amigos is a whopping 216 points for Anakin, Plo, and Obi with 7B. The Resistance version with Poe/Ello/Nien is 179, and the Rebel is 162 for Wedge/Thane/Luke (enough to give them all proton torps and have two points left over). One of the major problems with these sorts of pilots is that initiative really matters when they're fighting each other. I'd give naked Wedge decent odds against Anakin with 7B simply because of how punishing his ability is against aces and the fact he will be moving second because he costs less even though Wedge costs a full 26 points less (that's proton torps, ABs, and outmaneuver with two points left over for initiative). Vader with Hate/FCS/Afterburners is 2 points less than naked 7B Anakin, has the same level of action economy, has a third agility die, has an ability to get precious force tokens back when things go **** up, and will hit much harder with a crit conversion and offensive reroll.

That doesn't even get into the opportunity cost of taking Republic instead of Rebels and Imperials. If I take Vader over Anakin I have access to numerous quality wingmen that can leverage Vader's strengths. The Jedi don't have access to that and won't for some time I think. Palps is decent but way too expensive and cumbersome to be a quality choice. Quite frankly I don't think Aethersprites have the support ships they need to really succeed in the competitive meta. Yes I've flown with and against them. They seem decent but not amazing. Anakin is good in a 1v1 with lesser I ships, but then what I6 ace isn't? Soontir with Predator would kill my opponents faster than Anakin.

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14 hours ago, Rangor said:

Yes, cause I DID NOT ANSWER TO YOU!

 

EDIT: Oops, i did in fact answer to you.

Makes your answers even more disturbing.

To make it short:

This is wrong.

You dont get two actions.

You can swap one force against one movement action, even during a red manouver.

Poe gets two actions. Poe can get TL + Focus or Evade + Focus.  Both cant be done by the sprite.  But you act as if its the same.

I agree with most of your initial posts points.

But this "aint blabla worth 10 points" is so out of context. You mix up stuff you cant compare.  You dont show Poes advantages. (hint, poe wins in upgrades, poe wins in wingmates, ...).

You argue one sided. which is the only thing i brought up.

 

 

Anakin can take evade+2 force, which is basically a focus. And he can take TL+3 force, or 2, or 1. All with no cost, no stress, and the ability to pull it off again right after a red. Poe can't do that, unless he he limits his dial to greens. Anakin can use his entire dial as much as he wants.

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