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Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

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11 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Not sure I see a major synergy with Lum/SD. Her tokens and Obi's support are great for sustained durability, but they don't to a crazy amount to prevent a single damage getting through if the attacker(s) are focused.

You're probably right though part of me hopes that if they're concentrating on Luminara everyone else is already gone or returning the favor.

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I don’t think people are underrating Deltas I think it’s more of getting over that initial perception. Also learning the new faction who they work well with and how they really fit. Much like people writing off S/F’s for the first order and some other ships we have seen over the years. A week really isn’t enough time to fully grasp the entire chassis and associated pilots.

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11 minutes ago, Ronu said:

I don’t think people are underrating Deltas I think it’s more of getting over that initial perception. Also learning the new faction who they work well with and how they really fit. Much like people writing off S/F’s for the first order and some other ships we have seen over the years. A week really isn’t enough time to fully grasp the entire chassis and associated pilots.

I mean there are a lot of negative comments out there about the delta's, more than positive. 

Totally agree that a week isn't enough time for a firm conclusion, but no reason to not discuss what we think in the mean time.

To be fair, if I had my **** together I'd be painting my deltas rather than trying to convince internet strangers they are good, but that's a big conditional.

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2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I mean there are a lot of negative comments out there about the delta's, more than positive. 

Totally agree that a week isn't enough time for a firm conclusion, but no reason to not discuss what we think in the mean time.

To be fair, if I had my **** together I'd be painting my deltas rather than trying to convince internet strangers they are good, but that's a big conditional.

True on the conversation point. From a live perspective. One player at the Cedar Rapids hyperspace event was flying 2 with an Arc carrying Palp. Said it wasn’t a good pair as the Arc was too slow to keep up. Also the Jedi wanted to get wide and flank and if they were doing that they left the arc behind to get waisted. If they stayed close the Jedi were taken out quickly as they were there to be shot. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Ronu said:

True on the conversation point. From a live perspective. One player at the Cedar Rapids hyperspace event was flying 2 with an Arc carrying Palp. Said it wasn’t a good pair as the Arc was too slow to keep up. Also the Jedi wanted to get wide and flank and if they were doing that they left the arc behind to get waisted. If they stayed close the Jedi were taken out quickly as they were there to be shot. 

Yeah, I've steered clear of any delta+arc170 support lists since it seems like too high a constraint on your flying. "In Arc" is fine but side-arc seems too weird on ships with different dials.

Edited by prauxim

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9 hours ago, prauxim said:

A rock or gas cloud yeah, debris no due to stress. Actually fly into gas and repo to the other side (if your template clears) isn't a bad strategy if you want to turtle

That’s makes this a really good ability. 

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I'm not sure I like multiple Delta-7s, but having a single ace has proved to be solid, especially when backed up by the undercosted 104th Battalion Pilots:

126 (3x) 104th Batalion Pilot.
74 Obi-Wan w/ R2-Astromech, Delta-7B.
-OR-
74 Anakin w/ R2-Astromech, Calibrated Laser Targeting.

It's a shame you can't fit anakin with 7B, but CLT is still OK.

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The problem is that you are paying a ton of points for these abilities that you also then have to pay force to use, which you also paid a ton of points for. So FFG is overcharging for these abilities when they should be discounted for taking away the force tokens that we paid good points for to modify our dice. And then to add further insult they add bullseye requirements to a bunch of them as well, and one of them even adds a mod slot on top of that, and despite having 3 different costs they still have the nerve to charge double digits for Calibrated laser targeting on top of that.

 

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Haven't tried them out myself (squad pack is still delayed in Europe, with no word on when it'll arrive), but I've played a couple of games against Ahsoka and Anakin. Couple of observations:

  • Ahsoka is worth every point. Her pilot ability is nigh on the best in the game, up there with Vader, Wedge, Fenn Rau and Redline. She's probably best run naked, but Sense, Calibrated Laser Targeting (if your local meta has a lot of generics), R2 & R4 astros and Synched Console are all solid options. I'd season to taste depending on spare points.
  • Anakin is very powerful, but his main strengths are I6 and 3 force. His pilot ability is good, but not amazing. It's costly, but one build I want to try out is 7B, R4 astro and Afterburners. The 5k is difficult to block and usually either lets him pop in right behind an enemy, or turn, boost and then shed stress, which can be followed by a roll or a lock. This looks like it would be a very good trick indeed.
  • Since both FTC and a lot of the pilot abilities depend on the pilot completing its move, jedi are very vulnerable to blocking. This is sort of countered by a flexible dial and built in mods, but they're still a softish target that won't have an evade token. It's going to be interesting to see how well they handle mobile and unpredictable generics such as Strikers and StarVipers.

I think Anakin probably needs to be flown somewhat conservatively in the early game. He's almost as expensive as Rexler, but only about as tough as Poe or Vader, putting his toughness to cost ratio somewhere close to Fenn Rau. In the one game I surprised my opponent with a red 3-bank with the Lambda, blocking Wolffe, who subsequently blocked Anakin. He stripped a couple of shields off the shuttle, but after taking a missile to the flank and then getting a full frontal from Jendon (!), the poor basted almost limped off the table then and there.

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The Aethersprites offer flexibility. You can either:

FTC or

Ability or 

Dice Mod (like calculate)

For an additional points cost you can add a Force power. But in my view this essentially ‘replaces’ your current ability at a steep points cost.

What the Aethersprite *cant* do is all of these things consistently. They’re a ‘jack of all trades’ type of ship which is quite useful in a shifting meta, but I don’t think they excel in any one area. 

Their power comes from their ability to ‘gear shift’ during a game or during a tournament; arc dodging to turtling to synergy for example. Their weakness comes from tiring quickly which leaves them vulnerable. Managing that resource is an extra burden on the player as is judging what strategy to adopt during each tournament match; equivalent of raising the player skill requirement.

I think the N-1 Starfighter is the true ‘buddy pair’ to the Aethersprite because the Arc and V-19 dials don’t lend themselves well to ‘synergy’ formation flying. When that’s released I think the Aethersprite will be much more viable (especially for the lower I pilots) whilst leaving the option to go with Arc/V-19 + Anakin ‘ace’ lists for those that want it.

 

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25 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Their power comes from their ability to ‘gear shift’ during a game or during a tournament; arc dodging to turtling to synergy for example. Their weakness comes from tiring quickly which leaves them vulnerable. Managing that resource is an extra burden on the player as is judging what strategy to adopt during each tournament match; equivalent of raising the player skill requirement.

This seems to fit very well.

My aim, with this shifting meta, is to be able to adapt on the table, rather than in my prep and my plans. 

I don't want to be tied to formation flying, becoming vulnerable to high end aces. I want some potential for big damage output and being able to coalesce on a single target, which often requires some synergy and forming up. I also want a closing 'ace' who can tie up loose ends. On top of that, I want some joust potential, for those circumstances where it becomes viable. Finally, I also want to be able to split into capable solo fighters if necessary and cause target selection headaches for heavy joust lists.

That's a lot of requirements and not at all easy to build for. The Jedi and friends really do seem equipped to do this though. Adaptability on the table could well be their main thing.

What all this adds up to is a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling. I don't expect people to unlock all this straight away but I can definitely see the potential there.

Ultimately, you're gonna have to use the force in more ways than one.

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4 hours ago, CRCL said:

I'm not sure I like multiple Delta-7s, but having a single ace has proved to be solid, especially when backed up by the undercosted 104th Battalion Pilots:

126 (3x) 104th Batalion Pilot.
74 Obi-Wan w/ R2-Astromech, Delta-7B.
-OR-
74 Anakin w/ R2-Astromech, Calibrated Laser Targeting.

It's a shame you can't fit anakin with 7B, but CLT is still OK.

Who do people prefer as your aces with multiple arcs or V19s

Obi-Wan - R2/7B

or 

Anakin - R2/CLT

Assuming they fit with the rest of your list equaly?

My votes on Anakin, what about you?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Who do people prefer as your aces with multiple arcs or V19s

Obi-Wan - R2/7B

or 

Anakin - R2/CLT

Assuming they fit with the rest of your list equaly?

My votes on Anakin, what about you?

 

5 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Who do people prefer as your aces with multiple arcs or V19s

Obi-Wan - R2/7B

or 

Anakin - R2/CLT

Assuming they fit with the rest of your list equaly?

My votes on Anakin, what about you?

I trying Mace with r4 and 7b for extra force regeneration and 1 hard blue turns

Edited by aswitcher

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, prauxim said:

Disclaimer: Initial impressions after just 3 games with 4x Deltas

In that last week I've read several comments like "the Jedi/Deltas are bad because you have to spend their force to do anything".

I can see the logic, but I think people are looking at it wrong. Force + FTC (the ship ability) is basically no-stress PTL and is priced at about what you would expect (~10pts if we compare JK 7B to PS3 T-65 and count the hull->shield as 1pt). You do have to take Frc/TL instead of Foc/TL if you want double mods, but there are several advantages to make up for that: force regen/usage never gets blocked, "after maneuver" timing avoids several action-skip effects for the repo (you can repo-off rocks/gas clouds and while ionized!), and no 2nd action loss on repo failure. 

People say "you run out so quick" but with other action-econ you "run out" 100% of the time with zero storage and you get nothing when stressed. Imagine an upgrade that said "you may perform an action after you fully complete your maneuver. if you don't do this for any reason, gain a calculate token", how would you price that? On an Awing? On a T-65?

Yeah, if you run named Jedi (other than Mace) the force is even more heavily "taxed". "More taxed" is a just negative form of "more options". Granted, there is definitely a case of decreasing marginal returns on options, but they still have value, esp econ-share. But is this value worth the point cost? Well, look at how little they actually cost over JKs. Factor in the typical cost of Ini and the extra force, you're not paying much for these abilities. E.g. you're probably paying 1-2 pts for Luminara's ability, a steal. A single case of using her ability (when you wouldn't have otherwise used the token) and it more than pays for itself, and more than likely this happens multiple times.

Overall, the highly flexible econ plus the amazing dial (considering you don't need to clear stress often) feels great. The JKs feel good, esp with CLT scaling to a usable price (effectively super-HLC for same price), and there's Fair Ship Rebels-esque potential in the named pilots. I feel a lot better about the pricing after 3 games. Won't go so far as to claim s-tier as of yet, but I think the crys of "DoA" are totally off.

Thanks for the thoughts.  I’m completely happy and excited to be proven wrong and have lists I can’t wait to try out myself despite my own concerns.    I will add, that despite the fact that I still think they are overcosted,  I think very good ace players are going to be able to make them do amazing things in the same way they can make Supernatural Kylo work.

 

Edited by AlexW

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Okapi said:

Since both FTC and a lot of the pilot abilities depend on the pilot completing its move, jedi are very vulnerable to blocking. This is sort of countered by a flexible dial and built in mods, but they're still a softish target that won't have an evade token. It's going to be interesting to see how well they handle mobile and unpredictable generics such as Strikers and StarVipers.

Which goes a long way to making Supernatural Reflexes tempting, despite the eye-watering price. Which, I think, is a good thing. 

I think you're right that force economy will make or break your piloting of the squad - evade is basically off-limits for generic Jedi because it's rarely worth it unless you've got a force and an action to throw at it plus a force token to throw onto your defence dice as well, but it's nice to have it there for the uniques. Massed battle meditation can throw out more actions than a squad of generics has any right to ask for and it works at range 2, not the range 1 of most interaction auras (good for blocking-prone, manouvrable ships).

Essentially, I think you'll relatively rarely see a generic jedi "just" throw a force token at the standard effect. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. 

Equally, they can go a long way to playing "ace" without needing to reach for the high-end pilots - 3 generics with 7B configuration, afterburners and sense, for example, can do a fair job of outflying an I6 pilot because someone can always afford to spend their force 'keeping tabs on them', even if no-one's in range 1

16 hours ago, prauxim said:

Not sure I see a major synergy with Lum/SD.

Agreed. Mitigating damage to avoid taking fatal hits with force and jedi abilities is easy. Stopping being hit entirely generally requires agility 3+, focus and evade or equivalent, and that's pushing it.

It's especially painful since (if the App is to be taken as correct) a 7B still pays top dollar for stealth, shield and hull upgrades despite dropping to agility 2 once the 7b configuration is attached.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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3 hours ago, K13R4N said:

Who do people prefer as your aces with multiple arcs or V19s

Obi-Wan - R2/7B

or 

Anakin - R2/CLT

Assuming they fit with the rest of your list equaly?

My votes on Anakin, what about you?

I think Anakin is probably the better choice, even though I much prefer the Delta-7B Config over the Calibrated Laser Targeting Config. As an initiative 6 pilot, he's more comfortable without a bid compared to Obi-Wan. Not that moving last is everything, but in this type of list it helps to have Anakin there to make the opponent's Initiative 5's nervous.

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I have no doubt that the Delta-7s can be played well. But I also agree that they seem just a touch overcosted and several of their abilities feel underwhelming because they cost Force tokens where other pilots get similar abilities for free (compare Anakin to Nien Numb, did Anakin's ability really need to cost Force?), or the effects are just worse than other things you would rather spend your Force on (purple evade, Plo Koon's ability,  arguably Barris's and Luminara's abilities). The various upgrades you might put on the ship to help round it out just amplify this effect (CLT, 7B, and Battle Meditation are all very expensive).

I may be wrong, I know someone on the grape-vine said they heard that these ships were really good in playtesting and so got last minute price tweaks upwards. The costs look like it.

All of the above combined with the flat out weird price difference between the base generic V-19 and ARC versus their elite and unique counter-parts definitely seems to drive the Republic to a couple of specific list types if you want the most bang for your buck. I think the CIS is going to end up with notably more varied and interesting lists than the Republic at the moment just due to their better balanced prices.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, GeneralVryth said:

I have no doubt that the Delta-7s can be played well. But I also agree that they seem just a touch overcosted and several of their abilities feel underwhelming because they cost Force tokens where other pilots get similar abilities for free (compare Anakin to Nien Numb, did Anakin's ability really need to cost Force?), or the effects are just worse than other things you would rather spend your Force on (purple evade, Plo Koon's ability,  arguably Barris's and Luminara's abilities).

Not to be rude, but did you read the OP? Any choice between options has a opportunity cost. Are you are treating it differently because you a have a token representation of that cost you have to flip?

Bariss/Lum's ability is sometimes worse and sometimes better than force/repo. And that situational advantage is reflected in the 1-2pts you're paying for the ability (allowing ~2 for I4 and ~2 for Lum's extra force compared to a JK). 

I agree about Plo though, the ability seems much more situational than anyone else's without much of a discount compared to Obi. IMO he's basically the Ello of Delta's.

As for Nien vs Anakin, you're right in a vacuum, but consider the full picture. Anakin is stress-free Poe by default with the option to instead have Nien-like stress mitigation. Anakin destroys Nien/PA in terms of overall action econ with much less flight restriction. Heck, a JK will get more action econ than Nien/PA.

It may turn out that they are a tad overcosted. I'd guess probably not, but a definite possibility. But saying they're overcosted because they have more options on how to use their built-in econ is silly IMO. It could be balanced at some cost either way, but I'd prefer having to choose (and a cost that reflects that) over having force+action+ability (and a price that reflects that). Just seems like better game design both thematically and mechanically.

Edited by prauxim
sp

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55 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Not to be rude, but did you read the OP? Any choice between options has a opportunity cost. Are you are treating it differently because you a have a token representation of that cost you have to flip?

Bariss/Lum's ability is sometimes worse and sometimes better than force/repo. And that situational advantage is reflected in the 1-2pts your paying for the ability (allowing ~2 for I4 and ~2 for Lum's extra force compared to a JK). 

I agree about Plo though, the ability seems much more situational than anyone else's without much of a discount compared to Obi. IMO he's basically the Ello of Delta's.

As for Nien vs Anakin, you are right in a vacuum, but consider the full picture. Anakin is stress-free Poe by default with the option to instead have Nien-like stress mitigation. Anakin destroys Nien/PA in terms of overall action econ with much less flight restriction. Heck, a JK will get more action econ than Nien/PA.

It may turn out that they are a tad overcosted. I'd guess no, but a definite possibility. But saying they're overcosted because they have more options on how to use their built-in econ is silly IMO. It could be balanced at some cost either way, but I'd prefer having to choose (and a cost that reflects that) over having force+action+ability (and a price that reflects that). Just seems like better game design both thematically and mechanically.

I did read the OP (admittedly, I did so shortly after the thread was posted instead of of shortly before responding). I am in the decreasing marginal returns bucket. I fully agree with the premise that something with more options is worth than something with less options. The question is how much more? Rarely, but sometimes the answer is 0 (on a 4 atk die ship, having the option to use a HLC even if it is free is still not worth anything). Usually, though additional options are worth something, whether that is a lot (SNR on high I pilots) or a little (concussion missiles on a Defender). I think in the case of the Delta-7s on average the additional option is costing more than its worth.

I don't think the Delta-7s are super over costed or anything, in my mind we are talking about 1 to 4 points depending on pilot, and maybe 1 to 3 more depending on config. The numbers are small enough that it would take a lot of play testing to tease out perfect balance. We agree on Plo it looks like, and probably on Bariss/Lum as well. My suspicion with them is I will need to play them more to have a good feel for their impact.

On the Anakin to Nien comparison, you're right he has more options, but you are also paying 18 more points for those options while having 1 less hull.

I think perhaps a better thing to say for me with the Delta-7 pilots is they are disappointing or underwhelming. They may be balanced, they may be a few points over costed but in general these unique pilots some of whom were considered some of the Jedi orders best (which when you are talking about an group of people with supernatural reflexes due to limited pre-cognition, that should be saying something), and you compare their abilities to other pilots they are just underwhelming. In some cases (like Anakin) it's a very a similar ability that just costs a Force instead of being free. I said in other threads that I had hoped FFG would error on the side of making Jedi powerful and appropriately expensive instead of weaker and cheaper. It seems like we got the weaker abilities/chassis without the everything must go prices you see on some other ships.

Now on a slightly tangential issue, who the heck came up with the pricing on Brilliant Evasion? While it is technically possible it could be used on 1 agility ship, how many times in a game are you expecting to get a roll with 2 eyeballs (which would take getting a second defense from range or obstacles and rolling 2 eyeballs which is a 1/16 chance with 2 dice)? That is not worth 2 points, especially in comparison to something like Elusive for 3 points. And the price points for 2 and 3 agility are little better. It should cost like 0/1/2/3 if not 0/0/1/3. This is even more egregious because of the way 7B penalizes taking upgrades that scale by agility (which is most of the mods and one of the handful of Force powers a Delta-7 will want to take). Since only agility 2 or 3 ships are ever likely to take this in the first place maybe it should just be a flat 2 or 3 points.

 

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I came up with this list... still not sure 3 ships is the way to go. I think 4 ship is prob better. but this at least looks like fun

 

SinkerSquad

Plo Kloon - R4, CLT - 61

Obi Wan - R4, CLT - 63

Sinker - R3, Shield upgrade, Proton Torps, Commander Cody - 76

I think Sinker will draw the fire for a bit, Hopefully he can aide Obi Wan and Plo Koon, and they can help him and each other until he's taken out. Then two high init aces that can also help each other in the end game. hmmm...

 

 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:

... these unique pilots some of whom were considered some of the Jedi orders best (which when you are talking about an group of people with supernatural reflexes due to limited pre-cognition, that should be saying something), and you compare their abilities to other pilots they are just underwhelming. In some cases (like Anakin) it's a very a similar ability that just costs a Force instead of being free. I said in other threads that I had hoped FFG would error on the side of making Jedi powerful and appropriately expensive instead of weaker and cheaper. It seems like we got the weaker abilities/chassis...

But that's just it, Force/FTC is part of their Jedi powers. Their ability is no-stress PTL, one of the best abilities in the game (short of vader, appropriately). Stronger Jedi are represented by more force and more ways to use the force.

On Nien vs Anakin cost, the better cost comp is Poe vs Anakin/7B at 68 vs 78. 10 gets you

  • Get 2x reserve force, loose a hull (a net advantage)
  • Don't have to screw with s-foils for BR
  • Still 2 actions, but no stress
    • and due to no stress, 100% more dial options
  • Get 1 action/no stress on red maneuver if R1 or Bullseye
    • Compared to 0 actions + stress for Poe
  • Can still use force and/or FTC if you loose Perform Action step (Ion/Rock/Gas)
  • Option to repo then mod with risk of failing repo and loosing linked action
  • Still get some mods if blinded

 That's not worth 10 pts?

Not sure if we agree on Luminara, I think her ability is great. Try her then imagine her ability with no force cost. Shes a Jedi Master, not 1.0 Palpatine on crack

Agreed that Brilliant Evasion price is redic.

Edited by prauxim

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8 minutes ago, prauxim said:

On Nien vs Anakin cost, the better cost comp is Poe vs Anakin/7B at 68 vs 78. 10 gets you

  • Get 2x reserve force, loose a hull (a net advantage)
  • Still 2 actions, but no stress
    • and due to no stress, 100% more dial options
  • Get 1 action/no stress on red maneuver if R1 or Bullseye
    • Compared to 0 actions + stress for Poe
  • Can still use force and/or FTC if you loose Perform Action step (Ion/Rock/Gas)
  • Option to repo then mod with risk of failing repo and loosing linked action
  • Still get some mods if blinded

 That's not worth 10 pts?

Not sure if we agree on Luminara, I think her ability is great. Try her then imagine her ability with no force cost. Shes a Jedi Master, not 1.0 Palpatine on crack

That's an interesting counterpoint on Anakin. You could buy  the hull mod (and even accounting for the 7B adjustments) which would make Anakin 4 points more without the hull difference, for the more open dial, 2 extra Force to play with throughout the game, potential to avoid losing all actions in a round, all in exchange for not being able to get full double mods for his double actions. That probably is worth 4 points, if not more. Maybe it's just Nien that's off in this comparison.

I am deferring to you somewhat on Luminara. I haven't played her much, and her ability is definitely one that will need to be played plenty to properly judge. That's what I said her and Barris were arguable. That have the look of something that could be less useful (especially Barris), but they also had the look of something hard to judge.

 

19 minutes ago, prauxim said:

But that's just it, Force/FTC is part of their Jedi powers. Their ability is no-stress PTL, one of the best abilities in the game (short of vader, appropriately). Stronger Jedi are represented by more force and more ways to use the force.

You may be right about this in the long run, for most of the pilots. I do still think they messed up Plo, who is going to need a 3-5 point drop to feel right. Maybe more of their cost issues could be sitting in the upgrade options they want to take, SNR is clearly overpriced (though it was insane before) and probably should be more like 12/12/12/12/16/20/24. Battle Meditation would be silly on an I 1 pilot if any could take it and probably should be more like 7/7/7/7/8/10/12. 7B could get a similar treatment 14/14/14/14/15/16/17. Same with CLT 4/4/4/4/5/7/9. And of course Brilliant Evasion at just a flat 2 or 3 points.

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46 minutes ago, prauxim said:

But that's just it, Force/FTC is part of their Jedi powers. Their ability is no-stress PTL, one of the best abilities in the game (short of vader, appropriately). Stronger Jedi are represented by more force and more ways to use the force.

On Nien vs Anakin cost, the better cost comp is Poe vs Anakin/7B at 68 vs 78. 10 gets you

  • Get 2x reserve force, loose a hull (a net advantage)
  • Don't have to screw with s-foils for BR
  • Still 2 actions, but no stress
    • and due to no stress, 100% more dial options
  • Get 1 action/no stress on red maneuver if R1 or Bullseye
    • Compared to 0 actions + stress for Poe
  • Can still use force and/or FTC if you loose Perform Action step (Ion/Rock/Gas)
  • Option to repo then mod with risk of failing repo and loosing linked action
  • Still get some mods if blinded

 That's not worth 10 pts?

Not sure if we agree on Luminara, I think her ability is great. Try her then imagine her ability with no force cost. Shes a Jedi Master, not 1.0 Palpatine on crack

Agreed that Brilliant Evasion price is redic.

You every played them yourself? Seems not. Its not 2 actions. Cant take target lock focus. Poe can.  

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