Jump to content
prauxim

Opinion: Deltas are being underrated

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Disclaimer: Initial impressions after just 3 games with 4x Deltas

In that last week I've read several comments like "the Jedi/Deltas are bad because you have to spend their force to do anything".

I can see the logic, but I think people are looking at it wrong. Force + FTC (the ship ability) is basically no-stress PTL and is priced at about what you would expect (~10pts if we compare JK 7B to PS3 T-65 and count the hull->shield as 1pt). You do have to take Frc/TL instead of Foc/TL if you want double mods, but there are several advantages to make up for that: force regen/usage never gets blocked, "after maneuver" timing avoids several action-skip effects for the repo (you can repo-off rocks/gas clouds and while ionized!), and no 2nd action loss on repo failure. 

People say "you run out so quick" but with other action-econ you "run out" 100% of the time with zero storage and you get nothing when stressed. Imagine an upgrade that said "you may perform an action after you fully complete your maneuver. if you don't do this for any reason, gain a calculate token", how would you price that? On an Awing? On a T-65?

Yeah, if you run named Jedi (other than Mace) the force is even more heavily "taxed". "More taxed" is a just negative form of "more options". Granted, there is definitely a case of decreasing marginal returns on options, but they still have value, esp econ-share. But is this value worth the point cost? Well, look at how little they actually cost over JKs. Factor in the typical cost of Ini and the extra force, you're not paying much for these abilities. E.g. you're probably paying 1-2 pts for Luminara's ability, a steal. A single case of using her ability (when you wouldn't have otherwise used the token) and it more than pays for itself, and more than likely this happens multiple times.

Overall, the highly flexible econ plus the amazing dial (considering you don't need to clear stress often) feels great. The JKs feel good, esp with CLT scaling to a usable price (effectively super-HLC for same price), and there's Fair Ship Rebels-esque potential in the named pilots. I feel a lot better about the pricing after 3 games. Won't go so far as to claim s-tier as of yet, but I think the crys of "DoA" are totally off.

Edited by prauxim
sp/clarity/formatting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, prauxim said:

"after maneuver" timing avoids several action-skip effects for the repo (you can repo-off rocks/gas clouds and while ionized!),

wait a minute - does it mean I can do it having moved through an obstacle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, prauxim said:

 "after maneuver" timing avoids several action-skip effects for the repo (you can repo-off rocks/gas clouds and while ionized!), and no 2nd action loss on repo failure. 

No.

You are still limited to only the focus action when ionized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They're not bad, but compared them to trip T70s and laugh.

 

Then realise trip T70s are worse than Resistance 5s, which is just a comical comparison.

A JK.CLT needs a 15% BE rate to match a RSE T70 in terms of efficiency, a Delta 7B needs to net +2 hp or damage in its life due to Force + FTC to make up for the cost difference between it and a Heroic T70, and starts to destroy it afterwards.

I think a good pilot can average more than 2hp/dmg deficit per game considering all the flexibility.

I haven't give specific ace comparisons much though since I'm flying 4x. 4x Heroic RSE (or 3 + Jess) isn't played much but has a high top-table rate when its is, took 1st in swiss my local  50 man HT, so that's a fine benchmark for me.

Edited by prauxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

No.

You are still limited to only the focus action when ionized.

No, Ion says "you may only focus during the perofrm action step". FTC is after maneuver, so before the perform action step, so you can FTC then focus.

Edited by prauxim
"After maneuver is.." > "FTC is after maneuver, so before..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

No.

You are still limited to only the focus action when ionized.

You are limited to the focus action *during your perform action step*.


FTC is not during your perform action step.

7 minutes ago, rhetor said:

wait a minute - does it mean I can do it having moved through an obstacle?

Yes, as long as the template for the reposition doesn't touch the rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, rhetor said:

wait a minute - does it mean I can do it having moved through an obstacle?

A rock or gas cloud yeah, debris no due to stress. Actually fly into gas and repo to the other side (if your template clears) isn't a bad strategy if you want to turtle

Edited by prauxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoever says that has clearly not played with Mace Windu rocking either of the configs.

Deltas at their base are force-user A-wings with awesome support abilities, such as Luminara's sensor jamming to frustrate attacking ships that used up their focus mods. Toss on Calibrated Laser Targeting, and you now have a pseudo-TIE Interceptor, but with force! "But that's Kylo," you may say, until you realize Kylo has no access to the evade action, repair droids, or 7th fleet gunner (he does have his advantages, but the Jedi are adding many great strategies to the game). You could go for guaranteed firepower and not being too concerned about the bid war with 7B, turning you into a super-powered force-user X-wing [and yeah, 1 less agility, but the added guaranteed firepower are worth it]. The ability to decide A-Wing, Pseudo-Interceptor, and X-Wing for pilots you want to fly from a whole cast of great abilities is potent.

Granted, of all the space wizards in this game, the Jedi have generally the worse option for force powers, given that they don't have infinite force like Luke, can't recharge it with Hate, and typically don't have all the qualities that lend SNR it's powers. That's ok. If you need a power, sense goes a long way for a little, and even then, they are so good without them, unless you're flying SNR Anakin, which is legit.

Fine-tune controls costing a force is actually better than the Autothrusters linking via stress (unless you have primed thrusters, in which case you don't care). This is because any of the non-reds are still guaranteed to get you actions, whereas self-stressers are locked into blues. It also allows for some shenanigans of blasting through gas clouds and rocks (after your move went completely past them) thanks to it occurring before the action step.

Check ListFortress, they are making the runs. Give them enough time, and something like Plo's Bros or Clone Wars Aces is going to win a regional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I flew three 7B + R2 Deltas (Mace, Luminara, Ahsoka) at a local store torunament and my initial feeling is that force charges are much more useful than pilot abilities, save for Ahsoka - her ability is absolutely superb, regardless whether she supports or uses it on herself.
Still, going against an Infiltrator + 5 vultures proved very hard. Grappling struts were a very very nasty surprise. 
Advice, given to me by an expert player who wiped the floor with my list - don't take gas clouds; an infiltrator just ignores them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Fine-tune controls costing a force is actually better than the Autothrusters linking via stress (unless you have primed thrusters, in which case you don't care).

All agreed, but I would say Force+FTC is still a lot better than Autothrusters+PT. AutoPT doesn't get a token when stressed or overlapping, AutoPT has to do a blue or loose option of mods after being stressed, AutoPT can't double mod, AutoPT can't repo when Ionized or after flying through gas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, rhetor said:

I flew three 7B + R2 Deltas (Mace, Luminara, Ahsoka) at a local store torunament and my initial feeling is that force charges are much more useful than pilot abilities, save for Ahsoka - her ability is absolutely superb, regardless whether she supports or uses it on herself.
Still, going against an Infiltrator + 5 vultures proved very hard. Grappling struts were a very very nasty surprise. 
Advice, given to me by an expert player who wiped the floor with my list - don't take gas clouds; an infiltrator just ignores them.

I dunno, being able to fly into gas and repo to the other side seems like a good trick. How does infiltrator ignore them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, prauxim said:

I dunno, being able to fly into gas and repo to the other side seems like a good trick. How does infiltrator ignore them?

It manoeuvres at leisure. And engages :D .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, rhetor said:

It manoeuvres at leisure. And engages :D .

Still don't understand. You mean with the title? Clouds still block a decloak boost/br. What maneuvering advantage does it have over any other ship?

Does it have something boosting obstructed attacks to offset the +1 agi and blank -> evade? Haven't looked at it much TBH.

Edited by prauxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Still don't understand. You mean with the title? Clouds still block a decloak boost/br. What maneuvering advantage does it have over any other ship?

Does it have something boosting obstructed attacks to offset the +1 agi and blank -> evade? Haven't looked at it much TBH.

While giving chase, an Infiltrator just flies through. Or makes a K-turn onto the cloud. Not many would have risked it with a debris clould, hardly anyone with a rock.
Applies to any ship, really, but it was the Infiltrator that gave me the most grief, apart from this asteroid-based turret of a grappled vulture.

 

Edited by rhetor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, rhetor said:

While giving chase, an Infiltrator just flies through. Or makes a K-turn onto the cloud. Not many would have risked it with a debris clould, hardly anyone with a rock.

Yeah but what's unique that makes that better for the Infiltrator than the delta. 

As far as I can tell, Delta's are the one's with the asymmetric advantage due to FTC not being affected by clouds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, rhetor said:

It manoeuvres at leisure. And engages :D .

I mean, it'll still have to skip it's action, and actions tend to be good.

//

Anyhow, here's a list I've got packed, I call it the Three Master Shuffle.  Kinda similar to @rhetor 's list, but I wanted all Init 4.  Synced Console instead of bid, since I want to see how it feels.  There could easily be someone who's in a good position to Lock, and maybe they don't need it and can pass it along.  Everyone's droid is picked to try to leverage their pilot ability, or at least allow more options for it.  Mace has the Pattern Analyzer droid, to take an action after a red move.  Luminara protects others, so I gave her the regen, if she's the first target.  Saesee Tiin can adjust people's dials somewhat, so I gave him the option to use the hard turns on his own.  Obvious downside to the list is only being mid-tier Initiative.

  • Mace Windu (7B, R4-P19, Synced Console) 69
  • Luminara Unduli (7B, R2 Astromech, Synced Console) 66
  • Saesee Tiin (7B, R4 Astromech, Synced Console) 64

//

I also put in two games with Obi-Wan with R2 Astromech and Calibrated Laser Targeting, along with beefy generics.  Feels like he doesn't have too hard a time getting bullseye on folks, and could serve as a pretty decent stand-alone ace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, prauxim said:

Yeah but what's unique that makes that better for the Infiltrator than the delta. 

As far as I can tell, Delta's are the one's with the asymmetric advantage due to FTC not being affected by clouds.

IMHO it's better to reposition and hide behind something that the opponent might be reluctant  simply to go through. And, as I added above, it applies to any ship, really, I specified the infiltrator as it gave me most grief due to it's resilience, firepower, and manoeuvrability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, it'll still have to skip it's action, and actions tend to be good.

//

Anyhow, here's a list I've got packed, I call it the Three Master Shuffle.  Kinda similar to @rhetor 's list, but I wanted all Init 4.  Synced Console instead of bid, since I want to see how it feels.  There could easily be someone who's in a good position to Lock, and maybe they don't need it and can pass it along.  Everyone's droid is picked to try to leverage their pilot ability, or at least allow more options for it.  Mace has the Pattern Analyzer droid, to take an action after a red move.  Luminara protects others, so I gave her the regen, if she's the first target.  Saesee Tiin can adjust people's dials somewhat, so I gave him the option to use the hard turns on his own.  Obvious downside to the list is only being mid-tier Initiative.

  • Mace Windu (7B, R4-P19, Synced Console) 69
  • Luminara Unduli (7B, R2 Astromech, Synced Console) 66
  • Saesee Tiin (7B, R4 Astromech, Synced Console) 64

//

I also put in two games with Obi-Wan with R2 Astromech and Calibrated Laser Targeting, along with beefy generics.  Feels like he doesn't have too hard a time getting bullseye on folks, and could serve as a pretty decent stand-alone ace.

I understand the alure of same PS, but also seems like a lot-of synergy between Obi and Lum, and different PS is easier to handle for 3ship than for 4ship. She always focuses and Obi always replenishes her if she get targeted, shes knocks down crits or forces token spend if he gets targeted.  Would cost a droid but seems worth it.

Edited by prauxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aethersprites are absolutely great. Just one game with Ol' Ben and CLT was enough to convince me of that.

So just to toss this out there, I haven't seen much discussion regarding Deltas and Stealth Device. I'm toying with the idea of an Obi-Wan, Luminara, Wolffe list:

"Wolffe" (51)
Elusive (3)
Proton Torpedoes (12)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (53)
R2 Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (8)

Luminara Unduli (44)
R2 Astromech (4)
Stealth Device (8)
Total: 195

My hope is that four evade dice and an R2 unit will keep the damage cards away long enough to provide good utility for Luminara's ability though I'm a bit weary of the potential loss of damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

Aethersprites are absolutely great. Just one game with Ol' Ben and CLT was enough to convince me of that.

So just to toss this out there, I haven't seen much discussion regarding Deltas and Stealth Device. I'm toying with the idea of an Obi-Wan, Luminara, Wolffe list:

"Wolffe" (51)
Elusive (3)
Proton Torpedoes (12)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (53)
R2 Astromech (4)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (8)

Luminara Unduli (44)
R2 Astromech (4)
Stealth Device (8)
Total: 195

My hope is that four evade dice and an R2 unit will keep the damage cards away long enough to provide good utility for Luminara's ability though I'm a bit weary of the potential loss of damage.

I like the Idea of Luminara/R2/no config. Relives the load on her tokens for her ability and decreases her target priority which I think would be high. I would want more guns in the rest of the list though to make up for the offense loss.

I think I like R5 better on other delta's. Need more testing though.

Not sure I see a major synergy with Lum/SD. Her tokens and Obi's support are great for sustained durability, but they don't to a crazy amount to prevent a single damage getting through if the attacker(s) are focused.

Edited by prauxim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...