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A wild idea to fix Generic pilot spam

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So one of the big "meta" lists going around is the 5 y-wing with veteran turret gunner and ion turrets (or I guess 4 of them have vet turret, and ion not the point). What if they had scale up cost for these as well, but in reverse? 

 

For example, a grey squadron bomber isn't as experienced as say Norra on the y-wing frame. It make more sense that the rookie or lower pilot initiative wouldn't be as skilled to be a "veteran turret gunner" as some of the named pilots that have been around a fight or two. So it would cost more for the grey squad, but less for Norra.

 

Same thing goes for hyperspace tracking data. Why would a lowly starkiller pilot have access to advanced tech, while say Captain Cardinal might be a better choice for said tech? (not saying points should change on it right now, its still a strong card)

 

I guess I'm just worried that when a fix comes around for the y-wings, if one happens,  FFG makes another card cost more then its worth or unusable in some way. (I haven't seen hyperspace tracking data since the bump in cost, but it's a cool card still that I wish had its uses in different types of lists)

 

Just a random thought I have not seen on the forums, maybe it has been mentioned but buried, so sorry if this is a repost of some sort.

 

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Maybe VTG should be limited to 2 or 3  ... there can't be that many veterans running around. Though I expect points will get tweaked so that VTG turret Y-wings get capped at four per list.

But I agree that there are some upgrades that have a greater advantage on lower initiatives than higher. Barrage Rockets, for example, where it's easier to get a focus because you can't be blocked (or are harder to block), might make sense to have higher costs for lower initiative (likewise proton torps maybe should have higher costs for higher initiatives because it is easier to get the lock).

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Not sure I agree with low initive generics paying more for a veteran turret gunner.

The gunner is the veteran, not the pilot, so why should it cost more for a rookie.

I think Hawkstrike is right that lock based weapons should be costed according to initive, but disagree about Proton rockets, as while lower Initiative pilots might be able to get focus more easily, it's much harder for them to line up bulls eyes, so I think that balances out.

Spot on for Barrage rockets, and really the new energy she'll charges too. While you could argue the lower initive means carriers of B.Rockets and E.S.Charges can be killed before firing, the pilots cost less upfront.

 

I think there could be instances for upgrades that have costs inversely proportional to initative, but not sure we have any right now.

 

I do think some upgrades could have costs that scale with the number in the list, Juke, VTG, swarm tactics, etcetera...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, svelok said:

It's sort of a boogeyman, but isn't it just strictly worse than UXXYY?

what are you running on your y-wings and the u-wing?you dont have enough to fit VTG on the y-wings. if its just ion cannon then no 5Y is better.

Edited by bageldrone

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Posted (edited)

I struggle against lists like this. But I don’t want them to go away. I want to keep facing them because they challenge me to make better choices and to be a better flyer. That’s the thing with VTG: if you can arc dodge, then you don’t have to worry about getting shot at twice per round per ship.

Edited by kempokid

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🤨 Looks to me like the game is getting closer to balanced than it has been. Look at 5x Y-Ion as a test of range and arc control. If the Ion Cannon Turrets are firing at you first engagement you borked something up. If you're getting double tapped every engagement after the first, you very likely borked up big.

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10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Looks to me like the game is getting closer to balanced than it has been. Look at 5x Y-Ion as a test of range and arc control. If the Ion Cannon Turrets are firing at you first engagement you borked something up. If you're getting double tapped every engagement after the first, you very likely borked up big.

This. And one of the biggest things you can do to help yourself here is rock placement. So simple but my gosh it helps. Last time I faced a multi-generic list we made two rows of three rocks all spread out. It was horrible for me. He took his squad anywhere he wanted them to go. If I would have been smarter I would have made him approach the middle of the board from an angle and I would have had better luck getting around them.

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V A R I A B L E C O S T I N G

"This upgrade card costs 6/8/10/12/14 if your squad already contains 0/1/2/3/4 copies of it."

Phat turrets don't give a phuk, aggressors are cool with it because Double Edge exists and Kestal wants barrage rockets (also they suck), the Paige Tico trick is still allowed to exist, etc. You can have 2 vtg ions  as area control, but you gotta pay 2 extra pts. for that, and spamming quickly becomes impossible.

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Has 5 Y even won anything big? I see it making cuts a lot but usually it doesn't last too long past that. First all generic squad to have some success in 2.0, lets nerf it! 

I will say VTG is probably a point too cheap, but if they stay where they are I wouldn't have a problem. 

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1 minute ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

VTG is just a little too good for its cost.

I can't disagree with that, but I'm having too much fun with a Veteran Turret Gunner on Norra's Y-wing. 

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2 hours ago, player3010587 said:

V A R I A B L E C O S T I N G

"This upgrade card costs 6/8/10/12/14 if your squad already contains 0/1/2/3/4 copies of it."

Maybe over correcting.

6/7/8/9/10/11

That's an extra 10 points with only 4 copies or 15 points with 5 copies.

That's huge in terms of list building, probably too much tbh.

6/6/7/8/9/10 might be fairer

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2 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

Has 5 Y even won anything big? I see it making cuts a lot but usually it doesn't last too long past that. First all generic squad to have some success in 2.0, lets nerf it! 

I will say VTG is probably a point too cheap, but if they stay where they are I wouldn't have a problem. 

It won a hyperspace trial after going 6-0 undefeated at warboar games UK.

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49 minutes ago, gadwag said:

This forum just flip-flops between complaining that generics are rubbish (because aces are too good) and that generics are OP and being spammed.

The game keeps flipping between generics and aces.  As someone who has stuck pretty much to 3-4 mid-initiative/PS pilots since 1E, I'm still waiting for their turn to be OP.

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53 minutes ago, gadwag said:

This forum just flip-flops between complaining that generics are rubbish (because aces are too good) and that generics are OP and being spammed.

Sounds like the game is in a pretty good place.
If something was obviously broken people would only complain about that.

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16 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

The game keeps flipping between generics and aces.  As someone who has stuck pretty much to 3-4 mid-initiative/PS pilots since 1E, I'm still waiting for their turn to be OP.

Have you tried flying scum? Captain Seevor, Advanced sensors 4-lom, palob, torkil, cartel executioner (with r5-p8), L3-37/Outer rim pioneer (escape shuttle) - scum have a lot of powerful options in this area. Seevor, Palob, 4-lom and the executioner is a mean squad that absolutely shreds aces, and has a pretty good game against most things.

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Just now, gadwag said:

Have you tried flying scum? Captain Seevor, Advanced sensors 4-lom, palob, torkil, cartel executioner (with r5-p8), L3-37/Outer rim pioneer (escape shuttle) - scum have a lot of powerful options in this area. Seevor, Palob, 4-lom and the executioner is a mean squad that absolutely shreds aces, and has a pretty good game against most things.

I've tried flying Scum, and ended up hating them even more than I did before trying them, which is really saying something.

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