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Are vulture droids broken? (Energy cell charges)

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10 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

The entire point of that EPT is that red dice are better than green.  With clouds, greens are better than red.

But more red dice is better than less.

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16 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Not if you have to pay points for those red dice and they get casually negated because your opponent is just adding an evade.

You have agency in the terrain you bring and where some of it gets placed.

But at the very least, your shot has more of a chance going through than if you didn't have it.

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39 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

The entire point of that EPT is that red dice are better than green.  With clouds, greens are better than red.

Yeah, but you're getting trick shot and they aren't. If I have a 90% chance to miss, but it means you get a 99% chance to miss, I'm in.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Yeah, but you're getting trick shot and they aren't. If I have a 90% chance to miss, but it means you get a 99% chance to miss, I'm in.

 

By that logic, any EPT is good i.e. they all have a non-zero chance of working.  What made Trick Shot useful was that obstructed shots were generally a net damage increase and even with trick shot, shooting through a cloud is a net decrease.  In that respect, clouds are 100% a hard counter because they remove the principal advantage that gives trick shot value.

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3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

By that logic, any EPT is good i.e. they all have a non-zero chance of working.  What made Trick Shot useful was that obstructed shots were generally a net damage increase and even with trick shot, shooting through a cloud is a net decrease.  In that respect, clouds are 100% a hard counter because they remove the principal advantage that gives trick shot value.

I am confused. Clouds are a hard counter to Trick Shot? Don't clouds make attacking worse while trick shot makes attacking better? How is that a hard counter? Wouldn't an attacking ship firing though a cloud be worse off without Trick Shot that it would be with Trick Shot?

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19 minutes ago, Rapture said:

I am confused. Clouds are a hard counter to Trick Shot? Don't clouds make attacking worse while trick shot makes attacking better? How is that a hard counter? Wouldn't an attacking ship firing though a cloud be worse off without Trick Shot that it would be with Trick Shot?

 

You are worse off because attacking through a cloud is a bad idea, but trick shot needs you to make obstructed shots to be useful.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

You are worse off because attacking through a cloud is a bad idea, but trick shot needs you to make obstructed shots to be useful.

Trick Shot still makes a bad shot better. Calling gas clouds a hard counter to Trick Shot, when the cloud has the exact same effect regardless of Trick Shot being present (and is likely having that same negative effect on your opponent who is returning fire), does not seem reasonable.

Edited by Rapture

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4 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Trick Shot still makes a bad shot better. Calling gas clouds a hard counter to Trick Shot, when the cloud has the exact same effect regardless of Trick Shot being present (and is likely having that same negative effect on your opponent who is returning fire), does not seem reasonable.

Trick shot hates gas clouds to the point of me not wanting to take it. My resistance list of 3A-Poe really has to abuse trickshot to get the best value out of those A-Wings. We all remember 1.0 autothrusters and how pointless shooting those ships felt when it was going off, especially if they have at least a way to mod focus results. I'm for sure looking at other factions because I don't know if that list can cut it with gas clouds running around. 

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Vultures are definitely not broken. If your opponent isn't nuking two of them before they shoot, either dice went terrible, or they engaged terribly. 

Then nearly a quarter of your squad points have disappeared. 

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34 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

You are worse off because attacking through a cloud is a bad idea, but trick shot needs you to make obstructed shots to be useful.

That's not a hard counter, though.  A hard counter completely shuts down a card.  Trick Shot is still more useful than not-Trick Shot through a cloud, so that's clearly not a hard counter.

10 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Trick shot hates gas clouds to the point of me not wanting to take it. My resistance list of 3A-Poe really has to abuse trickshot to get the best value out of those A-Wings. We all remember 1.0 autothrusters and how pointless shooting those ships felt when it was going off, especially if they have at least a way to mod focus results. I'm for sure looking at other factions because I don't know if that list can cut it with gas clouds running around. 

If you're giving up an entire faction because a single trick is now slightly less powerful, it sounds like you weren't really terribly attached to them to begin with.

Maybe try a different load-out?  Trick Shot is pretty good, but it's hardly the only way to fly A-Wings.

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9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That's not a hard counter, though.  A hard counter completely shuts down a card.  Trick Shot is still more useful than not-Trick Shot through a cloud, so that's clearly not a hard counter.

If you're giving up an entire faction because a single trick is now slightly less powerful, it sounds like you weren't really terribly attached to them to begin with.

Maybe try a different load-out?  Trick Shot is pretty good, but it's hardly the only way to fly A-Wings.

Who cares about being attached to specific factions or pilots? Welcome to 2.0 where metas change like crazy. The point is trickshot holds very little value with gas clouds, so it's probably best to look elsewhere.

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12 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Who cares about being attached to specific factions or pilots? Welcome to 2.0 where metas change like crazy. The point is trickshot holds very little value with gas clouds, so it's probably best to look elsewhere.

You seemed to think that changing factions over it was significant, so I assumed you cared.  I guess I was wrong.  <shrug>

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23 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

There's a lot less support for them than it seems and too many support options reduces number of droids too low.  Also, the initial engagement is pretty severe because even the range 3 ships are still positively contributing, but as soon as you close that gap the Vulture's damage drops off, they're burn through calculates too fast to store them and you start casually killing them and then they're spastic dials come into play.  I'm prepared to say, a 1 K-turn might be the least useful maneuver in the game to have on your dial.  Play against it a few times, power through the initial engagement and you'll probably find that not only is it not that bad, but it's not really that good of a list either.

 

Flew into the teeth of 5x Vultures with 2x ARC, 2x Torrent, with Obi/Maul fighting for position on the flanks.  Popped one, wounded #2, and one Torrent took 4 damage.  The Vultures didn't roll great, Maul decided not to double-tap, and the Torrent got arrows like he was Hawkeye.  Variance...

Anyhow, I'm less nervous.  But I think 3-red dice ships for 24 points are the kind of things we should never *not* be nervous about, like fire.

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On 3/23/2019 at 11:19 PM, Gkgnight said:

xwing.thumb.jpg.9bb9eb856d67fe8d58e6197080a71c76.jpg

 

Ok so the reload action states, "when a ship performs the reload action, it reloads by performing the following steps....". Energy shell charges state: "Action: reload this card"

The action performed on energy shell charges is NOT a reload action, it is a seperate action based on the wording on the card. Also see the text that says, "Additionally: If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than a reload action". This means that a reload and the reload action are two separate things. The question is if the ability that triggers the reload of the card's procedure the same as a reload action when the clause at the end of the reference states they are different from each other. 

Also, the keyword "recharge" is not in the rules reference

Honestly, I concur that the Reload section needs rephrasing to account for non-action reloads, but expecting that it will behave any other way than as described in that section is wishful thinking at best.


And 'recover 1 charge' is the wording to which I should have referred, rather than recharge.  That is the standard form for increasing the number of charges on a thing with no other consequence, c.f., e.g., Chopper astromech, Resistance Chewbacca crew, etc, to name a couple offfhand.

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On 3/23/2019 at 3:23 PM, thespaceinvader said:

They have two agility and three hit points, and typically a single calculat for defence.  That is their weakness.  What more weakness do you need?

And the energy shells only shoot every other turn.

And if they're on a rock, just... stay away from the rock.  Force them to come out and fight you in the open, and you will M U R D E R them.

There should be an award for getting all 5 reactions!

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Vultures are overpriced. Grappling Struts and Discord Missiles are also overpriced. Energy Shells might be correctly priced? Named Vultures that aren't DFS-311 are ridiculously overpriced.

I'm pretty sure non-Maul Infiltrators are overpriced. Dooku might be fine too, but the generic and robot definitely aren't. Dooku Crew seems fairly priced, at least with the Infiltrators at their current prices (which means he might actually be too cheap.) Same goes for Grievous Crew, which is somewhere between a slightly discounted 1-agi shield upgrade and an incredibly discounted 2-3 1-agi shield upgrades, but is again only allowed on the one platform. I can't tell if DRK-1 and Scimitar are correctly priced but I think they might be.

Belbullabs might be overpriced. Maybe Wat is correct? Sear is ???, I've got no idea. Grievous is probably too expensive, and so are the generics, especially the Autopilot. Impervium is definitely overpriced. Soulless One might be too.

Kraken might be correct? Maybe K2-B4 is too? TV-94 is overpriced, at least by comparison. Although, Kraken at 10 might be too cheap if B22/Infiltrator generics were more correctly priced.

The implications of some of these prices might change when Hyenas are released, but that's going to be very shortly before new points anyways. I think there are viable CIS builds, but there aren't that many, they require an extremely high burden of execution, and will struggle to match what the other factions can put on a table until at least wave 4.

Seems like CIS, First Order, and Scum are the losers of this first hyperspace season, competitively speaking? (Good Guys On Top? Except Empire I guess, which is also On Top.)

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My experience flying 8 of them (only 6 ESC’s, Discord’s on the others) was that, while dice swings could kill them, they’re largely excellent.

Admittedly, I was playing in the losers bracket most of that time, but my only loss out of 5 games was the one game I engaged poorly. Landed a Vulture on a rock, didn’t have as good of range control as my other games, etc. And it still ended up being close thanks to my Buzz Droids, even against BBB+Magva (Which, hah, I literally have never TL’d with these guys.)

So maybe a high skill ceiling but also vulnerable to popping and potentially a high skill floor? I’m not sure, but they feel pretty good to me.

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45 minutes ago, svelok said:

Vultures are overpriced. Grappling Struts and Discord Missiles are also overpriced. Energy Shells might be correctly priced? Named Vultures that aren't DFS-311 are ridiculously overpriced.

I'm pretty sure non-Maul Infiltrators are overpriced. Dooku might be fine too, but the generic and robot definitely aren't. Dooku Crew seems fairly priced, at least with the Infiltrators at their current prices (which means he might actually be too cheap.) Same goes for Grievous Crew, which is somewhere between a slightly discounted 1-agi shield upgrade and an incredibly discounted 2-3 1-agi shield upgrades, but is again only allowed on the one platform. I can't tell if DRK-1 and Scimitar are correctly priced but I think they might be.

Belbullabs might be overpriced. Maybe Wat is correct? Sear is ???, I've got no idea. Grievous is probably too expensive, and so are the generics, especially the Autopilot. Impervium is definitely overpriced. Soulless One might be too.

Kraken might be correct? Maybe K2-B4 is too? TV-94 is overpriced, at least by comparison. Although, Kraken at 10 might be too cheap if B22/Infiltrator generics were more correctly priced.

The implications of some of these prices might change when Hyenas are released, but that's going to be very shortly before new points anyways. I think there are viable CIS builds, but there aren't that many, they require an extremely high burden of execution, and will struggle to match what the other factions can put on a table until at least wave 4.

Seems like CIS, First Order, and Scum are the losers of this first hyperspace season, competitively speaking? (Good Guys On Top? Except Empire I guess, which is also On Top.)

Funny you seem to think all that, having played them a bit for the last 2 week, I have only lost once and won 4 times. That's not a huge amount of game experience, but i'm starting to get a hang of it.

Personal opinion time : generic vulture are very competitively priced! separatist drone is excellent, ESC is quite good and a must. Butterbot is the best name vulture by far, but that's not saying much as the precise hunters are 2 points overpriced. Grappling struts can be very good, giving you tie-fighter level of defense and ignoring obstacles. But they take a lot of planning to make the best use of, and they are countered HARD by seismic charge and trick shot. 

Kraken works best by using it on an ace that also keeps a calculate for later use ( someone like grievous who really likes Sloops, or Wat Tambor to fuel his own ability). TV-94 seems meh to me, because of trying to get bulleyes with I3. I have yet to try K2-B4 though, but I feel that the secret to making it work is a LOT of vultures, with energy shell charge. And then you either survive with the added evade + network, and shoot a lot of 2 die attack, or you lose some vulture, but punish the other side who's strained.

And personally the 2 Sith pilot are really good and correctly costed, and the bellbulabs is a tiny bit overpriced on all pilots.  (or, really, the 1 bank should have been blue. The ships real problem is shedding stress, and having a really good linked action.)

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I have played a number of games with Vultures in the past 2 weeks.  The non-limited generics are not overpriced.  Butterbot (DFs-311) is not overpriced.   Everything else is.

I don't believe Grapplers are overpriced as they can be pretty powerful if used smartly.  You can have 2 Droids sit on a rock without moving.  You can also get the +1 green on defense without the penalty on the offense.

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It's a matter of price, to me. I think that the energy shell charges missile should be closer to 5 or 6 points. It has a reusability aspect to it, gives a decently strong (on par with barrage rockets) attack without having to spend your modification token, and can only be taken by a select few ships (Sep only card).  

I understand that hanging on to the calculate makes the droids vulnerable when defending, but networked calculations and Kraken have proven to be a powerful combination for defense, however the ships do pop under pressure. As the swarm dwindles, the weaknesses of the ship become clearer and clearer. The vulture droids have a strong early game, a struggling mid-game, and an almost non-existent end game.

There are many weaknesses to them. For now, they are fairly strong due to many players not knowing how to counter them and FFG taking it easy on the cost of the ship/toys.

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34 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

generic vulture are very competitively priced! separatist drone is excellent, ESC is quite good and a must.

Ah, but if ESC is a must - then that means that Vultures are overpriced! 😁

I think CIS needs to see 18/20 point i1/3 Vulture generics. I also think that should happen while ESC remains at 4 points - but it would still be an improvement even if ESC went up at the same time to 5 or 6.

Vultures at 18, Energy Shells at 6 would leave the price of the combo unchanged but do a lot to make the faction more even-keeled.

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20 minutes ago, svelok said:

Ah, but if ESC is a must - then that means that Vultures are overpriced! 😁

I think CIS needs to see 18/20 point i1/3 Vulture generics. I also think that should happen while ESC remains at 4 points - but it would still be an improvement even if ESC went up at the same time to 5 or 6.

Vultures at 18, Energy Shells at 6 would leave the price of the combo unchanged but do a lot to make the faction more even-keeled.

Yeaaah I think the ESCs would need to go up to price Vultures that competitively. I flew 8 i1 (7 generic, w/Butterbot) and they were decent; i3 might have felt a bit too good on them, for that cost, I think.

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