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haukurv

The "Action: Reload this card" on Energy-Shell Charges

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I probably sound far too abrupt and dismissive, and should have worded things better.

But the Reload section is really worded just like so many other actions, and the game has, I'd thought, a pretty clear way of referring to either an effect with the word, or the action with the symbol.  Coordinate, Jam, Lock all work the same way, too: the action with the symbol performs the effect, but the effect described is something which can happen outside the action.

No worries (this discussion is btw way more civil than some threads here...)🙂

The reload section is worded very similarly as the boost section but not identically:

Boost: "When a ship performs a [boost] action, it boosts. A ship boosts by following these steps:" (coordinate and jam are worded in the same way fyi)

vs.

Reload: "When a ship performs the [reload] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:"

There is subtle difference and if you read the reload it lacks the "... [reload] action it reloads. A ship reloads by..." part. If you only read the reload section and not the other similar ones, it is quite possible to get it wrong. Subtle difference, but makes it more prone to misunderstandings.

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Yeah, it's a drafting error, i think probably predicated by the fact that previously, all reloads were reload actions.  It's a silly thing to miss though, because the 'when a ship performs an x action, it x.  A ship x by...' phrasing is universal and future-proof, and there's no reason NOT to use it.

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16 minutes ago, haukurv said:

No worries (this discussion is btw way more civil than some threads here...)🙂

The reload section is worded very similarly as the boost section but not identically:

Boost: "When a ship performs a [boost] action, it boosts. A ship boosts by following these steps:" (coordinate and jam are worded in the same way fyi)

vs.

Reload: "When a ship performs the [reload] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:"

There is subtle difference and if you read the reload it lacks the "... [reload] action it reloads. A ship reloads by..." part. If you only read the reload section and not the other similar ones, it is quite possible to get it wrong. Subtle difference, but makes it more prone to misunderstandings.

 

14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah, it's a drafting error, i think probably predicated by the fact that previously, all reloads were reload actions.  It's a silly thing to miss though, because the 'when a ship performs an x action, it x.  A ship x by...' phrasing is universal and future-proof, and there's no reason NOT to use it.

So it's actually not just Reload which is worded a little wonky.  While the general "when a ship performs an x action, it x.  A ship x by..." formulation is common, it's not always exact.

And there's at least one really big exception...

It's BARREL ROLL, too!

"When a small ship performs a [Barrel Roll Symbol] action, it follows these steps:"

(and I noticed this before, but elided over it...)

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Friggin pictograms not being used consistently (as in always in place of the word or term they represent)... They tripped me up on this one because I assumed since the "reload action" symbol wasn't used it wasn't the same... Symbol is for "reload" not "reload action". 

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It is actually in the rules guys. 

RR pg 15

Quote

..it reloads by performing the following steps:
1. Choose one of the ship’s equipped [torp], [missile], or [device] upgrade cards that has fewer active [charge] than its charge limit.
2. That card recovers one [charge].
3. The ship gains one disarm token.

Those are the steps to reload. When a ship perform the reload action, it follows the reload steps as above. Additionally..

Quote

If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing a [reload] action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still perform the [reload] action this round.

Same difference as acquiring a lock vs performing a lock action. Both go though the same steps, but one is its action form, one is not. 

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32 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

It is actually in the rules guys. 

Aye we know, as seen in the discussion above. Check some posts in this thread where we discuss how easily it can be misinterpreted 😉

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Pardon my levity, but am I only one who got a laugh out of this post

58 minutes ago, haukurv said:
1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

It is actually in the rules guys. 

Aye we know, as seen in the discussion above. Check some posts in this thread where we discuss how easily it can be misinterpreted 😉

Is immediately followed by this one?

50 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Reload is clearly defined in rules.

It's not just 'reload-by-icon'.

That's just one way to reload.

This card enables another way to reload, one that has a very specific limitation.

This is not confusing.

I think we've reached consensus here 🤣

(Seriously thought, @Lyianx thanks for the RR page :) )

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11 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

That possibility is going to cause some screaming if we get coordinate...

What do you mean if? Separatists already have a (purple) coordinate through Chancellor Palpatine. 

(Admittedly, I think thats the only way right now, but Coordinate is available)

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1 hour ago, wildcrdj said:

What do you mean if? Separatists already have a (purple) coordinate through Chancellor Palpatine. 

(Admittedly, I think thats the only way right now, but Coordinate is available)

Damnit!! I am so going to have this singing in my head every time I witness Palpatine/Sidious coordinating: "Wipe them out.... ALL OF THEM!"

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14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

That possibility is going to cause some screaming if we get coordinate...

I mean, probably not.  It'll be a Hyena doing a double-reload on a turn when it can't shoot and taking a coordinate which would almost surely be more valuable if used on a different ship.  It's not really some giant power spike.

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On 3/22/2019 at 3:23 AM, haukurv said:

The card reads:

  • Action: Reload this card.

The relevant Rules Ref reads:

  • RELOAD ([RELOAD])
  • Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their ship. When a ship performs the [RELOAD] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:
  • 1. Choose one of the ship’s equipped [TORP], [MISSILE], or [BOMB] upgrade cards that has fewer active [CHARGE] than its charge limit.
  • 2. That card recovers one [CHARGE].
  • 3. The ship gains one disarm token.
  • Additionally: • If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing a [RELOAD] action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still perform the [RELOAD] action this round.

The question is: does the ship get the [DISARM] token when performing this action?

Arguments for it getting a [DISARM] token is that you are basically performing the [RELOAD] action and therefore follow the same steps, as there are no other instructions on how to reload.

Arguments against are that you are not performing the [RELOAD] action and therefore only recharge by flipping one [CHARGE], as the Rules Ref specifically states that reloading by other means is not the same as performing the [RELOAD] action.

IMO whichever the intended effect is, it would have been better to use clearer wording either on the card or in the rules reference:

  • On the card: "Action: Recharge this card. you {do|do not} gain a [DISARM] token."
  • On the card: "[RELOAD]: You can only reload this card with this action."
  • In RR: "If you reload by other means than the [RELOAD] action you {do|do not} gain a [DISARM] token."

I can see the reasoning for not just adding a [RELOAD] action with the upgrade, as it could cause unintended interaction with bombs and the Hyena seems to be with both missile and bomb capabilities (so adding [RELOAD] by equipping energy-shell charges and then equipping a proton bomb would have allowed reloading of bombs).

And finally, just to make it clear: I don't really have a preference on which interpretation is correct, but I would have liked it to be clear. Therefore I think that an official ruling or RR update is in order to prevent mixed interpretations of this.

I accept the premise of your argument that you are not performing a Reload action.

Let us quantify what this means given the rules reference you have quoted.
If the ship had access to both a 2nd Action and a True [Reload] Action on it could perform the [Reload] Action in addition to the Action on the Energy Shell Charge.  Given that we know that Hyenas have a Reload Action (You can make out the Red Reload on the Wave 4 Spoiler article) and that the Faction has access to Coordinate (through Palpatine) this seems like a logical reason to word the card the way it is to define it as not the Reload Action.

Moving on to address the assertion you make that because you are not doing a Reload Action that you do not need to perform the steps for Reload in the RRG.
You give no support to why Reloading is different from the [Relaod] Action other than for the reason I stated, you just state it as a given.
There is nothing anywhere in the rules to imply that you can Recover a Charge through a Reload outside of the 2nd Step of a 3 Step Process and so for that interpretation to hold any merit you would need to present a case for why you would skip other steps, given what is written on either the card or any other supporting rules documentation.

As an example, I will put forwards that we can Skip Step 1 of the Reload process, this is because it is written on the card that the Action only Reloads that card.

I am yet to find any written evidence that you can stop at Step 2 or that there is any other way for Reload to mean Recover One Charge without performing Step 2 at all.

If you can't make a case for either being able to stop at step 2 or recovering without performing it, then there is no case for not gaining a Disarm Token.
 

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5 hours ago, KrisSherriff said:

I accept the premise of your argument that you are not performing a Reload action.

Let us quantify what this means given the rules reference you have quoted.
If the ship had access to both a 2nd Action and a True [Reload] Action on it could perform the [Reload] Action in addition to the Action on the Energy Shell Charge.  Given that we know that Hyenas have a Reload Action (You can make out the Red Reload on the Wave 4 Spoiler article) and that the Faction has access to Coordinate (through Palpatine) this seems like a logical reason to word the card the way it is to define it as not the Reload Action.

Moving on to address the assertion you make that because you are not doing a Reload Action that you do not need to perform the steps for Reload in the RRG.
You give no support to why Reloading is different from the [Relaod] Action other than for the reason I stated, you just state it as a given.
There is nothing anywhere in the rules to imply that you can Recover a Charge through a Reload outside of the 2nd Step of a 3 Step Process and so for that interpretation to hold any merit you would need to present a case for why you would skip other steps, given what is written on either the card or any other supporting rules documentation.

As an example, I will put forwards that we can Skip Step 1 of the Reload process, this is because it is written on the card that the Action only Reloads that card.

I am yet to find any written evidence that you can stop at Step 2 or that there is any other way for Reload to mean Recover One Charge without performing Step 2 at all.

If you can't make a case for either being able to stop at step 2 or recovering without performing it, then there is no case for not gaining a Disarm Token.

Not that I disagree, but aren't there enough discussions about this without having to dig up older ones, too?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Not that I disagree, but aren't there enough discussions about this without having to dig up older ones, too?

This thread is specifically being linked to in the other discussions as proof that you don't receive the Disarm token.

Trust me, I would rather it went away but when people are just using this post as an Official FFG Thread saying that you don't take it, it probably needs to be addressed.

Nothing personal and I would rather have not Necro'ed but this is the one people are linking :D

Kris

Edited by KrisSherriff

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50 minutes ago, KrisSherriff said:

This thread is specifically being linked to in the other discussions as proof that you don't receive the Disarm token.

Who linked to this thread as evidence of not receiving disarmed?

The consensus on this thread was that you do receive disarm and then it moved off topic to whether double-reload on a Hyena will be over powered.

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2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Who linked to this thread as evidence of not receiving disarmed?

The consensus on this thread was that you do receive disarm and then it moved off topic to whether double-reload on a Hyena will be over powered.

Im confused as well. Thought we all agreed you Do receive the disarm token..

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indeed, you absolutely recieve a disarm token. there is no other way to reload. reloading is not regaining. you have to follow the rules for reloading when you're instructed to reload. that's pretty obvious.

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Posted (edited)

The wording on this is still very confusing. I get people's arguments*edit* for instructing to reload being different than a reload action*end edit*, but players should not have to figure rules out from context of other actions or what is included in the pack. There have been a couple of times where this question has come up in my own group. I am disappointed that this was not addressed in the last rules reference update. a simple reiteration would have been nice:

Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their
ship. When a ship performs the 󲈣 action, it reloads by performing the
following steps:
1. Choose one of the ship’s equipped 󲁏, 󲁐, or 󲁖 upgrade cards that has
fewer active 󲈮 than its charge limit.
2. That card recovers one 󲈮.
3. The ship gains one disarm token.
Additionally:
• If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing
a 󲈣 action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still
perform the 󲈣 action this round.

"When a ship performs the 󲈣 action, it reloads by performing the following steps:" is unclear about instances when a ship is instructed to reload without performing the reload action.

 

Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their
ship. When a ship performs the 󲈣 action, it reloads. A ship reloads by performing the
following steps:
1. Choose one of the ship’s equipped 󲁏, 󲁐, or 󲁖 upgrade cards that has
fewer active 󲈮 than its charge limit.
2. That card recovers one 󲈮.
3. The ship gains one disarm token.
Additionally:
• If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing
a 󲈣 action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still
perform the 󲈣 action this round.

This is a clearer phrasing.  "When a ship performs the 󲈣 action, it reloads." the action is now being linked to an instruction[reload]. The instruction [reload] is then defined.

 

Edited by Metal Carnage II

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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2019 at 2:04 AM, Metal Carnage II said:

The wording on this is still very confusing. (...)

Yeah, well.

On one hand I get the confusion. I do. It's bound to happen whenever new forms of interaction are made up somehow on the go with new releases, without direct RR reference. 

But then on the other hand, hear me out.

If anyone finds the rules regarding ESC's action clear enough for them to find out how the reloading process interacts with their charges: that it recovers one charge; just one charge; not all charges; doesn't add a new charge; doesn't prevent the charge from being recovered again in the future; it happens now, not next turn; not turn after the next turn; not previous turn; not only after the card is empty;

If they were able to specific all that using the existing Rules Reference, to link the ESC's reloading process with the "Reload" chapter of the document.  

Then there is no credible room to argue that they couldn't figure out if it is connected to the next friggin numbered bullet point of the paragraph that just told them what to do above. No way.

TL;DR:

You don't believe ESC follows the steps of Reload Action and you don't get the Disarm Token? Fine by me. Then you also don't recover a Charge on the thing, because that would be a part of the same exact process you don't believe you follow. 

Edited by Ryfterek

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6 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

You don't believe ESC follows the steps of Reload Action and you don't get the Disarm Token? Fine by me. Then you also don't recover a Charge on the thing, because that would be a part of the same exact process you don't believe you follow. 

That's a good point.  There's no part of "reload" which actually implies "recharge" unless it also comes with the disarm token from the full Reload rules.

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40 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's a good point.  There's no part of "reload" which actually implies "recharge" unless it also comes with the disarm token from the full Reload rules.

In our heads, we know what reload means. But Mechanically, the word by itself doesn't mean anything unless we know how THE GAME defines reload. Which you can only know by finding it in the rules reference showing the process of reloading, which includes gaining a disarm token. 

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i 100% agree. the question is not whether you would gain a disarm token, the question is what does reload mean?

it's defined in the rules. you always gain a disarm when you reload. there is no other way to reload.

it's clearly what the card says. there is no argument for not gaining a disarm token, since there is no other way to reload.

this is a game governed by rules, if you just want to interpret cards in the game as you like and play how you think it sounds, that's not playing the game, it's just playing around.

if you want to play this game, you need to know the rules and follow them. the problem is not that the rules regarding this are unclear. they are very clear. the problem is that some players don't take time to learn the rules.

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Posted (edited)

My apologies. I think I have missed the point that I was trying to explain. I am not making the argument that ESC should not get a disarm. The argument that I'm making is it could be worded better in the rules reference to alleviate confusion, especially for newer players. virtually all the other actions in the rules reference follow the following pattern: when a ship performs X action it does X. to do X, perform the following steps... Reload reads when a ship performs X action, it performs these steps... This skips linking it to an instruction and just links it to the action. This is where the confusion sets in. As written the reload action is interpretable,but I think if reload followed the format of the other actions it would be clearer.

Edited by Metal Carnage II

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@Metal Carnage II - that's interesting. you think ESC should say "Action: Regain 1 (charge), gain 1 disarm token" instead?

i think it's really clear as is, but as you mention, making the game easier to learn and understand is important.

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I don't think that's what he's saying at all?  It seems pretty clear what he's saying - that Reload is phrased in the rules ref as solely being an action, rather than being a thing that can be called on by any game effect including actions, like most similar things, boost and barrel roll being the better examples IIRC.

 

If it was phrased the same, it would be less confusing.

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