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haukurv

The "Action: Reload this card" on Energy-Shell Charges

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The card reads:

  • Action: Reload this card.

The relevant Rules Ref reads:

  • RELOAD ([RELOAD])
  • Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their ship. When a ship performs the [RELOAD] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:
  • 1. Choose one of the ship’s equipped [TORP], [MISSILE], or [BOMB] upgrade cards that has fewer active [CHARGE] than its charge limit.
  • 2. That card recovers one [CHARGE].
  • 3. The ship gains one disarm token.
  • Additionally: • If an ability instructs a player to reload, this is different than performing a [RELOAD] action. A ship that reloads without performing the action can still perform the [RELOAD] action this round.

The question is: does the ship get the [DISARM] token when performing this action?

Arguments for it getting a [DISARM] token is that you are basically performing the [RELOAD] action and therefore follow the same steps, as there are no other instructions on how to reload.

Arguments against are that you are not performing the [RELOAD] action and therefore only recharge by flipping one [CHARGE], as the Rules Ref specifically states that reloading by other means is not the same as performing the [RELOAD] action.

IMO whichever the intended effect is, it would have been better to use clearer wording either on the card or in the rules reference:

  • On the card: "Action: Recharge this card. you {do|do not} gain a [DISARM] token."
  • On the card: "[RELOAD]: You can only reload this card with this action."
  • In RR: "If you reload by other means than the [RELOAD] action you {do|do not} gain a [DISARM] token."

I can see the reasoning for not just adding a [RELOAD] action with the upgrade, as it could cause unintended interaction with bombs and the Hyena seems to be with both missile and bomb capabilities (so adding [RELOAD] by equipping energy-shell charges and then equipping a proton bomb would have allowed reloading of bombs).

And finally, just to make it clear: I don't really have a preference on which interpretation is correct, but I would have liked it to be clear. Therefore I think that an official ruling or RR update is in order to prevent mixed interpretations of this.

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You would gain a DISARM token when performing the action on the card, as that is part of the process for a Reload (the action on the card would skip the first step due to it defining that the reload is solely for that card).

 

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In a discussion elsewhere by comparing to other instances of performing actions that are not specifically [ACTION X] (boosting and coordinating for example) these are handled exactly like the "parent" action with the same restrictions except where specifically stated otherwise. So based on those comparisons you would get a disarm token.

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1 hour ago, haukurv said:

Arguments against are that you are not performing the [RELOAD] action and therefore only recharge by flipping one [CHARGE]

It's definitely, definitely not this.

There's a word for that, it's "recover". "Reload" doesn't mean "just do whatever you want" - if the rules are unclear, you can't just ignore the half of they you don't like.

Anyways, the key clause is:

1 hour ago, haukurv said:

When a ship performs the [RELOAD] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:

 

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1 minute ago, svelok said:

It's definitely, definitely not this.

There's a word for that, it's "recover". "Reload" doesn't mean "just do whatever you want" - if the rules are unclear, you can't just ignore the half of they you don't like.

I actually wrote that I DO NOT prefer either way, just that I thought this was unclear, as others have agreed with (here and elsewhere). So ignoring stuff I do not like is pretty impossible if I do not actually have a preference.

But as you mention, the "it reloads by" clause does indeed indicate that the ESC action to reload does follow these steps.

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17 minutes ago, haukurv said:

I actually wrote that I DO NOT prefer either way, just that I thought this was unclear, as others have agreed with (here and elsewhere). So ignoring stuff I do not like is pretty impossible if I do not actually have a preference.

But as you mention, the "it reloads by" clause does indeed indicate that the ESC action to reload does follow these steps.

Sure, it doesn't have to be you. That's just what that particular argument encapsulates.

"The rules don't tell me what this means" is valid, but "so I get to do only the good parts" is made up. That argument is super wrong and can be tossed out - it's saying the rules don't cover non-action reloading, but then also saying what non-action reloading means - kind of contradictory, y'know? - and then conveniently also stating that it is just the upsides, based on nothing.

Of the possible arguments, I'm just outlining that in particular that one is super wrong.

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Posted (edited)

Just for analysis purposes, lets look at this. (reminder, I don't have a personal preference, just looking at the clarity of the rules).

"When a ship performs the [RELOAD] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:" gives you two options of interpretation:

  1. When you perform the reload action you follow these steps to reload (which then lacks any further instructions).
  2. When you perform the reload action you reload, and reloading is performing these steps.

But because "reload" does not have any further definition, we have only one way of solving this (2).

As in other cases we can not be certain of the intent. For example the new rulings on non traditional bomb drops (that circumvent the "one device per turn limit without specifically stating they do.

Edited by haukurv

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1 hour ago, haukurv said:

Hyena seems to be with both missile and bomb capabilities (so adding [RELOAD] by equipping energy-shell charges and then equipping a proton bomb would have allowed reloading of bombs).

🤨 Hyena's, like TIE/Sas, TIE Punishers, K-Wings, Starfortresses and Y-Wings, can already reload devices (bombs only right now) and ordinance that do not say "This upgrade's charges cannot be recovered." The Reload action is baseline for the chassis.

swz41_hyena-class-bomber.png

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Sure, it doesn't have to be you. That's just what that particular argument encapsulates.

"The rules don't tell me what this means" is valid, but "so I get to do only the good parts" is made up. That argument is super wrong and can be tossed out - it's saying the rules don't cover non-action reloading, but then also saying what non-action reloading means - kind of contradictory, y'know? - and then conveniently also stating that it is just the upsides, based on nothing.

Of the possible arguments, I'm just outlining that in particular that one is super wrong.

In general, if the rules don't tell you what to do, you are in a limbo. You do not have instructions of what exactly you should be doing. So if stuff is not clear you may have to guess. In this particular case, I personally missed the "it reloads by" part that strongly suggests that you perform all these steps when reloading, but, as I point out in my last post here, there are 2 ways of reading the sentence. The first one lacks the instructions on how to reload, as it is entirely possible to understand reload > recover a charge (which is though poorly supported by the rules) or that these are the steps you follow to reload (and not just for reload action) which has better support in the rules, but to support that conclusion you have to read the rules for other action/non-action "happening" similarities.

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Hyena's, like TIE/Sas, TIE Punishers, K-Wings, Starfortresses and Y-Wings, can already reload devices (bombs only right now) and ordinance that do not say "This upgrade's charges cannot be recovered." The Reload action is baseline for the chassis.

swz41_hyena-class-bomber.png

Indeed. You could however equip the Energy-Shell charges and (IF it had given the ship a reload action) use it to reload bombs 😉

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

The SoS pack looks to come with at least 2 going from the spread.

swz29_spread.png

Aye, that is a strong indication that the intent is that "reload" should follow the steps described in the RR.

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

fixed...

Interestingly though, you can equip the energy-shells and some bomb, then (provided you can get 2 actions) reload both in the same round, get 2 disarm tokens, that then both pop at the end of the round!

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8 minutes ago, haukurv said:

In general, if the rules don't tell you what to do, you are in a limbo. You do not have instructions of what exactly you should be doing. So if stuff is not clear you may have to guess. In this particular case, I personally missed the "it reloads by" part that strongly suggests that you perform all these steps when reloading, but, as I point out in my last post here, there are 2 ways of reading the sentence. The first one lacks the instructions on how to reload, as it is entirely possible to understand reload > recover a charge (which is though poorly supported by the rules) or that these are the steps you follow to reload (and not just for reload action) which has better support in the rules, but to support that conclusion you have to read the rules for other action/non-action "happening" similarities.

Yeah. I just wanted to be clear that I'm not flaming you, just making sure the flaws of a bad argument I've already seen around a lot are pointed out.

"It just means you do a reload action but it's not an action" seems to be sufficiently satisfying to most people.

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1 minute ago, haukurv said:

Interestingly though, you can equip the energy-shells and some bomb, then (provided you can get 2 actions) reload both in the same round, get 2 disarm tokens, that then both pop at the end of the round!

That possibility is going to cause some screaming if we get coordinate...

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2 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:

No different to other weapons disabled stacks (SLAM and R2 ?) but yeah could be fun :D

🤨 Meant being able to recover a charge on a device and Energy Shell Charges in the same round. Slightly different than a reposition + single hp heal.

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Posted (edited)

I kind of don't get why this is confusing.

You can perform a Barrel Roll (such as from a tractor token, or when decloaking) or a [Barrel Roll Symbol] Action.  You can perform a Boost (again, tractor or decloak) or a [Boost Symbol] action.

The language for reload vs [Reload Symbol] Action is exactly the same.  You get the disarm token, without a doubt.

//

Boost, p. 6:

When a ship performs a [Boost Symbol] action, it boosts. A ship boosts by following these steps:

  1. Choose the [1 Left Bank], [1 Forward], or [1 Right Bank] template.
  2. Set the template between the ship’s front guides.
  3. Place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
  4. Return the template to the supply.

{etc, etc, etc}

If an ability instructs a ship to boost, this is different than performing a [Boost Symbol] action. A ship that boosts without performing the action can still perform the [Boost Symbol] action this round.

Edited by theBitterFig

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2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kind of don't get why this is confusing.

It basically boils down to possible misinterpretation of how to resolve the reload action (I misunderstood it myself when I first read through it and explained why in an earlier post). If you misunderstand "reload" (as in the non-action) as "recharge the card" (again, see above) it makes sense not to get a disarm token. It was due to discussion and debate that I saw that I got it wrong the first time. I am pretty sure that I am not going to be the only one to misunderstand it this way and I am also pretty sure that not everyone admits being wrong in the face of evidence either 😉. So IMHO some clarification is warranted to prevent people from playing it wrong.

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19 minutes ago, haukurv said:

It basically boils down to possible misinterpretation of how to resolve the reload action (I misunderstood it myself when I first read through it and explained why in an earlier post). If you misunderstand "reload" (as in the non-action) as "recharge the card" (again, see above) it makes sense not to get a disarm token. It was due to discussion and debate that I saw that I got it wrong the first time. I am pretty sure that I am not going to be the only one to misunderstand it this way and I am also pretty sure that not everyone admits being wrong in the face of evidence either 😉. So IMHO some clarification is warranted to prevent people from playing it wrong.

I probably sound far too abrupt and dismissive, and should have worded things better.

But the Reload section is really worded just like so many other actions, and the game has, I'd thought, a pretty clear way of referring to either an effect with the word, or the action with the symbol.  Coordinate, Jam, Lock all work the same way, too: the action with the symbol performs the effect, but the effect described is something which can happen outside the action.

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