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wildcrdj

Grappling Struts and moving over obstacles

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If a Vulture with Grappling Struts passes over an asteroid (or debris cloud), can it use them to avoid damage?

Been struggling with this.

[Closed] "While executing a maneuver; if you overlap an asteroid or debris cloud" -> does this mean I can flip it when I pass over an asteroid, or only if my final position would overlap?

[Open] "After you execute a maneuver, flip this card"

Seems to me one of these is true:

1) If passing over an asteroid or debris cloud counts, then I can open the struts as I move over the asteroid. Then in the "after executing a maneuver" step, I place "damage from asteroid" and "close struts" on the stack. If I can choose the order of that, I can have the damage resolve first (and get ignored, because struts are open) and then close the struts.

2) If my final position has to be on an asteroid to count as overlapping while executing, then it seems more clear. Although it does imply I could pass over _multiple_ asteroids as long as I land on one, since again when I get to damage step my struts are open.

However --- and I know this has been brought up before --- when I do land on an asteroid, why do the struts not flip closed again? I just executed a maneuver. I understand why they don't flip closed if I start my turn on an asteroid (because if I don't do a 2 straight I skip my Execute Maneuver step). Is it because this whole set of rules is after the "After you reveal your dial" clause, and the struts were closed when I revealed my dial, so none of it applies? (Except the ignore obstacles part, since that is separate from / before the after you reveal clause)

 

 

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you only overlap if your ships final position is on top of another object, in this case an obstacle, not if your template crosses it while you move.

while the struts are open, you only skip your execute maneuver step if you do no reveal a 2 forwards, so revealing a two forwards and executing it is the only way to close your struts, unless you somehow manage to execute a maneuver through other means (ion).

(edit) you cannot stand on an obstacle, do a two forwards to close your struts, end up on another obstacle (spare carnister, rigged cargo) and open your struts again during the same activation. this is because the timing of the struts closing is after you perform a manuever and the timing of the struts opening is before that, you may do it while you perform a maneuver. (thanks@Hiemfire)

(edit) you do ignore obstacles you fly over but do not land on, if you flip your struts to open or they are already open.

the last question really makes my brain hurt though. when the struts have just opened they should always close, since the timing and trigger for them to close should always come after you've opened them (after you execute a maneuver). even if you assume you should skip the execute maneuver step that you've just performed to open the struts, you've just executed a maneuver. this should be fixed in some way, because i definitely don't think it's intentional.

i think. :)

 

Edited by meffo
edited several times because i'm pretty dumb

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2 hours ago, meffo said:

while the struts are open, you only skip your execute maneuver step if you do no reveal a 2 forwards, so revealing a two forwards and executing it is the only way to close your struts, unless you somehow manage to execute a maneuver through other means (ion).

there is nothing stopping you from standing on an obstacle, doing a two forwards to close your struts, ending up on another obstacle (spare carnister, rigged cargo) and opening your struts again during the same activation.

Closed and open sides have different timings and only the face up side is active. Closed's timing is "while you execute a maneuver" with a trigger of overlap (land on as basically described in the Rules Reference). Open's is "after you execute a maneuver" with no other qualifier so happens after the Check Stress step of executing a maneuver. RAW starting from closed this results in: Overlap asteroid or debris, flip to Open side if you choose ("may" so optional), Check Stress while ignoring the effect of Obstacles at range 0, Maneuver now fully executed so mandatory ("may" is not used so is considered a "must") flip to Closed side.

In the hypothetical RAI of beginning a maneuver on an obstacle with the struts open and ending on another obstacle the Struts would close and stay closed since "after" is after "while".

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And what happens if you are landed on an obstacle with the stuts opened, you don't reveal a 2 forward and as your action perform a barrel roll out the obstacle ? Looks like the struts stay opened until next maeuver flip it back closed.

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4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Overlap asteroid or debris, flip to Open side if you choose ("may" so optional), Check Stress while ignoring the effect of Obstacles at range 0, Maneuver now fully executed so mandatory ("may" is not used so is considered a "must") flip to Closed side.

@Hiemfire I think I have the trail that converges RAW with RAI:

(Stay with me while I reach here) it could be interpreted that the "skip your Execute Maneuver step" part of GS Open is immediately active, and by extension you cannot trigger anything that is during or after a maneuver, which is why you do not trigger the "after you execute a maneuver, flip this card" clause. :)

Unfortunately ☹️ this interpretation still has some weird interactions:

First, even if the above is correct, you still can't "land" with a 2-straight because then we're back to not skipping the maneuver and "after you execute a maneuver" applies, meaning the struts close again while on the asteroid. (I don't mind this, it just feels odd to have the slowest, calmest maneuver be there only one that won't land a Vulture) 

Second, skipping the remainder of "Execute Maneuver" includes skipping the entire Check Difficulty step. That means if you land on an obstacle with a red maneuver, you do not receive a stress, (I don't mind this since it still feels thematic to have a Vulture turn whichever way it likes as it lands, but I can imagine some on the table arguments if I tried to do it) BUT! If you land with a blue maneuver, you do not clear a stress either.

Third, if you get ion'd into a rock you have the option to open struts (this is anti-thematic since a ion'd Droid should dead in space)  a̶n̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶p̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶e̶u̶v̶e̶r̶.̶ immediate correction: the rules actually say "4. After the ship finishes this activation, it removes all of its ion tokens." RR(1.0.2)p11 so the in token isn't removed until after the end of the entire activation unaffected by the shipping of maneuver. 

Here's What I'm reading in the Rules Reference (1.0.2): The "Execute Maneuver step" appears as step 2 of Activation on page 3, and the instructions to "Execute a maneuver" are on page 13, pictured below

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17 hours ago, wildcrdj said:

1) If passing over an asteroid or debris cloud counts...

To answer your first question: No, passing over does not count. The card only says "if you overlap" and the rules reference is clear that there is a difference. Here's the quote from p.13 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2):

Additionally:

• While executing a maneuver, if a ship would be placed at the end of the template on top of another object, it has overlapped that object.

• While executing a maneuver, if only the template was placed on top of another object, the ship has moved through the object. "

The underlines in that quote are not from me, those are actually in the Rules Reference to denote specific game terms that can be looked up elsewhere in the doc.

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Thanks, looks like the first question is pretty clear (would have been nice if it meant they ignore obstacles, but :) )

Although looks like my confusion with the closed/open is a tricky issue. I am fairly sure RAI is that they would stay open when you overlap an asteroid, but RAW really seems to imply they would immediately close (which would make the card fairly pointless...). Going to play with them first time tomorrow, since its a casual game I think we'll use my RAI feeling for now.

@nitrobenz I think has a decent argument for it working, but it definitely seems like a complicated enough explanation that I wouldn't want to have to argue it in an official setting. 

I guess as this sees more play I'm curious how TOs handle it.

Edited by wildcrdj

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