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Tvboy

This can’t be right...

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5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Edit: Also let’s talk about Jedi Knights and the 7b config. A I3 Jedi with 7b is 54 points. A red squadron vet with the same stats is 43. Is a single force charge and the option to spend that charge for FTC really worth 11 points on an I3?

Being able to double reposition and/or have the ability for "free" dice modification feels like it deserves the price increase. At least until wave 3 is given time to settle and see if the points are overcosted, undercosted, or just right.

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11 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Its 5 for most other pilots. Compare V1 Baron and Inquisitor, compare Aethersprite generics and 2 force pilots, ...

I'd imagine there is a price premium being applied for having the charge & the stress-free choice of repositioning.

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39 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

Who can say? The resistance conversion kit came with three YT-1300 dials and they are costed at a level that only allows you to bring 2. 

Yes, that was dumb. 

(And not enough X-wing dials)

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37 minutes ago, Rangor said:

I think most of the named Jedi pilots are costed correct. 

Like Ahsoka, Luminara, Saesee, Mace Windu...

As long as you play them without upgrades / maybe with calibrates laser, they seem fair.

The generics are overcosted, as are almost all upgrades for the aether

No, they're all too expensive.  You're comparable to stuff like Seventh Sister without the linked red Focus action, but for the same cost.  And Seventh Sister isn't great.

There's legit only one pilot in the entire faction that's costed to the current power level, and that's the generic ARC.

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2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You can't compare points for different factions.

Of course you can because once they hit the table it's the same game.  The same stats need to square up against the same stats with a similar level of efficiency.

You can say that one faction is deliberately being under/overpriced for a stat to create faction identity (eg. Rebel ARC pilots vs Republic ARC pilots) but that doesn't change their positioning in the power tier.

All the Jedi pilots are bad with the exception of Anakin, who is mediocre.

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Oh gods! If only there were a way for FFG to get several months of player use out of these things to determine if the cards are over or undercosted for what they do! Why!? WHY WOULDN'T THEY MAKE IT SO THAT POINTS COULD BE ADJUSTED AFTER SUCH DATA AND FEEDBACK HAD BEEN COLLECTED?! WHY HAVE THEY FORSAKEN US!

Oh, right, that's exactly what they did with the app! Silly me.

Seriously though, points have been out for less than 24 hours and there isn't a single store that sells X-Wing merch that's open right now (at least in my area). Look, points are going to change in a few months. Remember how we got that extensive point adjustment across the board back in January? July is not that far away and we'll see costs get calibrated. Players will still manage to get lists to work wonders even WITH overcosted items on it, so let's just relax and have some fun with these new toys :D

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9 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

 And Seventh Sister isn't great.

 

You wash your mouth out! How very dare you!

 

I've a feeling the I3 ARC jumps 5pt from the I2 because, A) It'll beat a lot of generic spam on Init. B) Init 3 matches up with the Jedi, including Ahsoka, which opens up a lot more synchronisation possibilities.

That +1 Init is worth more than it 1st appears.

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Republic Talent Generics both have massive points jumps.  I don't quite get it.  If Dedicated is too powerful as a support talent on generics, increase the cost of Dedicated, rather than making the talent generics so much more expensive than the plain generics.

25 -> 29 on the Torrent.  I think the 29 point Blue Torrent is probably overpriced by a point or two.  Gold Torrent is 2 points ahead of an Academy, 1 point ahead of an Obsidian, and that seems right.  Blue Torrent is 3 points more than a Black TIE.  Just seems high.  Torrent Aces also seem pretty expensive.  The various Inferno TIEs are mostly 30 points at Init 4, and Scourge and Mauler are Init 5s with access to extra red dice for 32 points.

42 -> 47 on the ARC.  I think 104th is *AT LEAST* 2 points underpriced.  1 point more than a T-65 or B-Wing for an extra arc and better defensive statline?  2 points less than the Zeta Gunner SF, which has to work for their rear arc.  Squad Seven Veteran is 1 point more than an Omega Gunner SF, 4 points more than a T-65, which seems like an appropriate cost increase relative to the increased capacities.

//

As to the point difference between a T-65 and a 7b, doesn't seem too odd.  A generic Jedi Knight with 7B is essentially an Init 3 Poe Dameron who can use white moves instead of Blue. She's limited in her 2nd action to "only" Boost/Barrel Roll/"Calculate," but that's still pretty good considering the doesn't get stressed in the process, and will still get that calculate-like Force Charge on a turn with a Red move.

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10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Republic Talent Generics both have massive points jumps.  I don't quite get it.  If Dedicated is too powerful as a support talent on generics, increase the cost of Dedicated, rather than making the talent generics so much more expensive than the plain generics.

25 -> 29 on the Torrent.  I think the 29 point Blue Torrent is probably overpriced by a point or two.  Gold Torrent is 2 points ahead of an Academy, 1 point ahead of an Obsidian, and that seems right.  Blue Torrent is 3 points more than a Black TIE.  Just seems high.  Torrent Aces also seem pretty expensive.  The various Inferno TIEs are mostly 30 points at Init 4, and Scourge and Mauler are Init 5s with access to extra red dice for 32 points.

42 -> 47 on the ARC.  I think 104th is *AT LEAST* 2 points underpriced.  1 point more than a T-65 or B-Wing for an extra arc and better defensive statline?  2 points less than the Zeta Gunner SF, which has to work for their rear arc.  Squad Seven Veteran is 1 point more than an Omega Gunner SF, 4 points more than a T-65, which seems like an appropriate cost increase relative to the increased capacities.

//

As to the point difference between a T-65 and a 7b, doesn't seem too odd.  A generic Jedi Knight with 7B is essentially an Init 3 Poe Dameron who can use white moves instead of Blue. She's limited in her 2nd action to "only" Boost/Barrel Roll/"Calculate," but that's still pretty good considering the doesn't get stressed in the process, and will still get that calculate-like Force Charge on a turn with a Red move.

I think this has it right for the V-19 and ARC.

On the 7B front, and really the Delta front in general. I think all of the pilots could probably use a point or 2 drop. 7B probably could drop a couple points and/or lose the scaling. Calibrated lasers could drop a couple points. Let me ask this, what's more powerful 5 v1 Inquisitors with FCS, or 5 Jedi Knights with Calibrated Lasers?

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1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Being able to double reposition and/or have the ability for "free" dice modification feels like it deserves the price increase. At least until wave 3 is given time to settle and see if the points are overcosted, undercosted, or just right.

Some buddies of mine are pretty down on the Aethersprites because "they cost too much."  I keep telling them the same thing, double actions every turn without stress on the I3s, double actions with modded dice on any unique with at least two Force.

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Posted (edited)

If Republic as a faction is slightly over costed, they’ll fix it. The ability to change cost is a big deal for these new factions with new mechanics. 

It’s also Day 2. We aren’t even 24 hours out from points release. We should get some more casual game time with the faction and let’s see what shakes out. 

Some ships feel priced too high, I agree, but the pieces/roles/capabilities are there for the faction to do well. Strong core theme and abilities that support it throughout, now to get the balance just right.

Edited by dsul413

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3 hours ago, mazz0 said:

Isn't this a good thing?  People always complain when new toys come out undercosted, assuming it's a tactic by FFG to make you buy them.

Today is complain about DOA.  Tomorrow is FFG-Forced-Me-to-Buy.  There are schedules to maintain. . .

7 hours ago, Estarriol said:

In 1st edition they didn’t have a formula for points, just going with what felt right. Looks like it didn’t change.

And they as much as confessed that at 2.0's inception.  It was one of the major turn-offs for me, since clearly the community was mathing things out.

You can spin that as a good thing, like @Kehl_Aecea points out.

1 hour ago, TheCeilican said:

All the Jedi pilots are bad with the exception of Anakin, who is mediocre.

You've played them all, then??

Or is this part of the old "I can judge good X-Wing just by holding a proxy to my forehead?"

Related image

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17 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:

I think this has it right for the V-19 and ARC.

On the 7B front, and really the Delta front in general. I think all of the pilots could probably use a point or 2 drop. 7B probably could drop a couple points and/or lose the scaling. Calibrated lasers could drop a couple points. Let me ask this, what's more powerful 5 v1 Inquisitors with FCS, or 5 Jedi Knights with Calibrated Lasers?

If I wasn't changing total prices, I'd shift the scaling around. +1/+2/+3 points on Init 4/5/6 base cost, a flat 15 on the Delta 7B, and CLT would cost Init +1.  That'd leave every configured Aethersprite the same as now, but make it easier to mentally follow.  Having three kinds of scaling--pilot, CLT, 7b--just makes things more confusing than it ought to be.  There'd be a minor cost increase for non-configuration ships used as support pieces, though.

//

Before the release, I was kind of figuring 38 for Jedi Knights, 14 for 7B.  So that would have been 52 instead of 54, not too far different.  But I also heard a rumor that playtesters found the various higher Jedi generally to be quite strong, and so points were adjusted up toward the end of playtesting.  I can readily believe that.  I feel a lot more comfortable suggesting that 104ths seem cheap and Blues seem expensive, because we have a good sense on what raw stats/dials do in X-Wing.  With all the Jedi, forming cost opinions when the points haven't been out a day really feels far too fast.  They're just too different. 

The ARC/Torrent are easier to compare to other ships, due to lack of the force, and closer equivalent ships.  It's a lot easier to compare within a class.  Torrent to swarm-ships like Z-95s and TIEs, where the Gold seems OK, but the Blue/Aces seems a touch high.  ARC to mainline jousters, like B-Wings and Gunner SFs.  To that end, trying to compare the Delta 7B and T-65 is a bit trickier, and mostly I meant that they clearly belonged in different classes.  The 7B up with the Silencers and E-Wings, and not as directly comparable to T-65s.  Trying to benchmark if a Silencer is appropriately priced by comparison to a T-65 feels like it can never really be all that illuminating.  Likewise 7B.  Comparing to a Red Vet X-Wing can't teach us anything useful.  However, these don't seem like pre-adjustment E-Wings, where the designers were clearly far to scared of their potential to release them at close to a reasonable price.  Aethersprite at least seem in the right ballpark and not radically off target.

//

As to the Inquisitor comparison, in a head-to-head, I'm probably taking Inqs.  But not necessarily against the field.  CLT is something I don't know if we have a good sense of yet.  On a Jedi Knight, it's priced more like HLC than predator, and I'd presume the overall effect tends to be closer in that realm.  A Jedi Knight with CLT can Boost or Barrel Roll and Focus, and if it gets bullseye will hit harder than an average attack from a 3-red ship; 2.5 hits at Range 2-3, 3.25 hits at Range 1.

Again, like with most stuff Aethersprite, it's far too soon say anything.

There is one interesting bit of trivia, however.  Pre-adjustment Inquisitors with FCS would come in at 43 points.  JK with CLT?  Currently 43.  And I'd certainly take a CLT Jedi over a pre-adjustment FCS Inq.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Today is complain about DOA.  Tomorrow is FFG-Forced-Me-to-Buy.  There are schedules to maintain. . .

😄😂🤣

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I'm gonna start trying the Jedi out tonight at the launch party at my FLGS. I'm gonna run this:

Obi-Wan + Calibrated Laser Targeting + R4

Plo Koon + Calibrated Laser Targeting + R4

Wolffe + Trick Shot + Veteran Tailgunner + Palpatine/Sidious

Plan is to coordinate two focus onto Plo Koon, who can give it to Obi-Wan. Plo and Obi take target locks into boost/barrel roll to get bulls-eye. Double mods on I5 interceptors with 3 dice (4 at R1) seems good, particularly when you have potentially 4 red dice with rerolls coming from Wolffe with a 3-dice double tap out the back.

Will that trigger all the time? No. But I don't see why you couldn't get consistent double mods on Obi-Wan and Plo Koon while arc-dodging. 

We'll see.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

...there’s no way the i2 is getting bumped above 50.

Agreed.

With 50 as a price point we've seen on Init 3 Talent ARCs with pilot abilities, going to 51 on an Init 2, talentless generic is, in the immortal words of Wally Shawn,

MATPB302-Inconceivable.jpg

3 hours ago, Pooleman said:

Who can say? The resistance conversion kit came with three YT-1300 dials and they are costed at a level that only allows you to bring 2. 

Some of that is that there wasn't really anything else to put in the Resistance kit.  T-70 is more unlikely to be a 5-per-list ship than the Scavenged YT is to be a 3-per list (it's only 2 points away at the moment), and the base tokens work out so nicely with 3 separate tokens for 3 unique pilots (the splits on the two tokens for the Rebel YT-1300 are awkward, locking out someone from converting Han & Chewie in the same list, or Lando & Generic).

Where the Resistance kit dropped the ball was not having an extra copy or two of the Black Squadron Ace, particularly when Bastian and Tubbs just repeat themselves on the other side.

Edited by theBitterFig

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7 hours ago, agenttherock said:

I like the I2 Arc and I2 V-19s price, feels right for what they bring to the table, I was expecting something more like 43-45 for the Arc 42 doesn't seem crazy, but you're absolutely right that the price hike for the higher initiative pilots feels a bit weird, especially for the V-19.

I keep thinking that the V-19 feels about 2 points high. But it's priced the same as a Z-95. 

And I don't think it's worse than the Z-95. 

So I'm not sure what. Apparently my brain just wants the V-19 to be super cheap and snipey.

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1 minute ago, Punning Pundit said:

I keep thinking that the V-19 feels about 2 points high. But it's priced the same as a Z-95. 

And I don't think it's worse than the Z-95. 

So I'm not sure what. Apparently my brain just wants the V-19 to be super cheap and snipey.

I'm actually a little surprised the generics weren't 26. I'd be pretty confident throwing 8 5hp ships at 8 TIEs or Z's. Not saying it's broken, but getting +1hp and a better action bar than a Z for only 2 pts more is really solid.

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26 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I'm actually a little surprised the generics weren't 26. I'd be pretty confident throwing 8 5hp ships at 8 TIEs or Z's. Not saying it's broken, but getting +1hp and a better action bar than a Z for only 2 pts more is really solid.

Those 2 HP on the Z being shields instead of naked hull do count for something though. I think the I2 V-19 is correctly costed.

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6 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Those 2 HP on the Z being shields instead of naked hull do count for something though. I think the I2 V-19 is correctly costed.

Agree. It seems perhaps high on a 2agi ship. But ultimately it probably is right.

how about 6 with prockets? That would be stupid. But hilarious. It’d be like Trinity in the Matrix, dodge this.

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3 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Agree. It seems perhaps high on a 2agi ship. But ultimately it probably is right.

how about 6 with prockets? That would be stupid. But hilarious. It’d be like Trinity in the Matrix, dodge this.

No doubt why they have linked Roll > Evade and not Roll > Focus.

:D 

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56 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Agreed.

With 50 as a price point we've seen on Init 3 Talent ARCs with pilot abilities, going to 51 on an Init 2, talentless generic is, in the immortal words of Wally Shawn,

MATPB302-Inconceivable.jpg

Some of that is that there wasn't really anything else to put in the Resistance kit.  T-70 is more unlikely to be a 5-per-list ship than the Scavenged YT is to be a 3-per list (it's only 2 points away at the moment), and the base tokens work out so nicely with 3 separate tokens for 3 unique pilots (the splits on the two tokens for the Rebel YT-1300 are awkward, locking out someone from converting Han & Chewie in the same list, or Lando & Generic).

Where the Resistance kit dropped the ball was not having an extra copy or two of the Black Squadron Ace, particularly when Bastian and Tubbs just repeat themselves on the other side.

I thought they should have put 2 RZ-2 dials and cards in the conversion kit. 

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