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The Hans or: Why does FFG Hate Resistance Han?

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Let me preface with this: I made some assumptions that I’m not going to get into because you don’t want to read a big block of text that explains my reasoning. The end result is this: I feel Rebel Han is pretty fairly costed when compared to other large base aces or semi-ace ships. I am using him as the baseline for comparison of the other two Hans.

Rebel Han: 82 Points
Stats: 3 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 5 Shield
Actions: White Focus, Lock, Turret Rotate, Red Boost
 
Resistance Han: 76 points
Stats: 3 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 3 Shield
Actions: White Focus, White Lock, Red Boost, Red Turret Rotate
 
Scum Han: 54 points
Stats: 2 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 3 Shield
Actions: White Focus, Lock, Turret Rotate, Red Boost
 
Or with shuttle attached
 
Scum Han: 72 - 89 points
Stats: 2 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 5 Shield
Actions: White Focus, Lock, Turret Rotate, Red Boost
Up to 3 pilot abilities
 
Why is Resistance Han 22 points more expensive than Scum Han and only 6 points less than Rebel Han? Compared to Rebel Han, Resistance Han has two fewer shields, a worse dial, a worse turret rotate, and a worse ability. Compared to Scum Han, Resistance Han has one more attack, a worse dial, a worse turret rotate, and a worse ability. 
 
For that matter, why are ALL the Resistance YT-1300 pilots massively more expensive than Scum YT-1300s and only a few points less than Rebel YT-1300s? Resistance Chewy is only 1 point less than Rebel Chewy. For that 1 point Rebel Chewy gives a non-red turret rotate, better dial, 2 shields, and a better ability.
 
Should Resistance Han/YT-1300 cost less? How much less in order to make them comparable to their Rebel & Scum counterparts? Should Scum Han/YT-1300s cost more? If so, how much?
 
Am I making this comparison in too much of a vacuum?

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I think it’s both Scum Han is a bit undercosted, and Resistance over? I’ve not looked closely at Resistance Han, so perhaps I’m wrong, but I’ve not seen anyone using him despite a healthy Resistance contingent locally.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Scum Han is fine. Rebel Han is fine. Resistance Han was useless in 1,0 as well.

I mean this might be the right read on things. Scum Han can get a scary amount of offense, but it requires smart play to get the most.

Ive been pretty good at avoiding the mega shots. But I’m a bit more adventurous piloting around rocks, especially with my Striker swarms, and I also love me some Seismics.

He is definitively not Over costed though, and Rebel Han is probably fine IMO too. I think his current problem is just how efficient and good Y’s are. Because is a fully set Han better than 2.5 double tap Y’s? Probably not.

Edited by millertime059

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31 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

I mean this might be the right read on things. Scum Han can get a scary amount of offense, but it requires smart play to get the most.

I think this is the key thing about Scum Han and why he’s cheap...  He can get scary, but it’s reckless and situational.  Or as I call it, “Fly it like Lando hates you.”

 

Resistance Han could definitely be a bit cheaper.  The entirety of his purpose is a deployment gimmick and Initiative-6.  After the game starts, he’s...  well...  An Initiative-6 YT-1300 that started in a nice spot.

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3 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Resistance Han could definitely be a bit cheaper.  The entirety of his purpose is a deployment gimmick and Initiative-6.  After the game starts, he’s...  well...  An Initiative-6 YT-1300 that started in a nice spot.

Resistance Han's secret pilot ability is "you may equip Rey Gunner"

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1 hour ago, Roller of blanks said:

I've had some success with a resistance han list (currently 2 wins, 1 loss)

I think resistance han is overcosted, but the rest of resistance is cheap enough to make it work, so IMO if han was fairly priced he'd be overpowered due to how good his wingmates could be. 

I think this is pretty much accurate. At my last tournament I took Old Man Han and Poe and went 3-1, only losing one game to a scum swarm because I flew poorly against it. 

I still feel that Old Man Han could come down a few more points, but at the same time I hope they raise the cost on a few of the other Resistance ships that are undercosted. 

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I feel like 2 points or so ought to come down off at least the non-Rey Resistance Falcons (maybe Rey too, but the Force is scary).  That'd allow 3x Resistance Sympathizer, but 3x Firespray is legal, and the scavenged YT-1300 is worse in dial, action bar, and statline.  Turret, but Firesprays are already double-arc.

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I really do think Resistance Han is overpriced for the ship and his ability. I think the Scavenged YT-1300 is overpriced in general. I think they've almost got the Rebel Falcon just right, and I think the the build granularity of the Scum Falcon lends well to the pricing it currently has.

I can see it being a hard ship to balance though, as its not particularly strong for a large base ship, but it can't be too cheap as to allow for some really strong wingmates in cheaper frames.

I love both the Falcon and Resistance so I've been thinking about how they could tweak this to be more competitively priced. Right now its just too much compared to the rest of the faction to really see play outside of the 2 ship heavy ace lists.

I was thinking maybe Han, Chewie and the Sympathizer could drop slightly in conjunction with a drop in cost for the title. I feel like this ship relies on the title, much more so than the other 2 titles.

Something like;

Han -> 72-73pts

Chewie -> 69-70pts

Sympathizer -> 67pts

Rey's Millenium Falcon title -> 2pts

Han suffers most in the Scavenged Falcon (and to a lesser extent Scum) lineup as he's 2 of 3 ships to suffer the 'ace tax' on a large base. Large ships aren't dodging arcs like Soontir or Fenn so the tax isn't as necessary.

Han down to 72-73pts with the title at 2pts gets that combo down to around 75pts, which is where I think he should probably be considering his ability; whilst fluffy, is almost completely useless. That also keeps the Han+Rey gunner combo in the high 80's.

I think Rey can stay at 80pts. She has no useful force talents available to her right now and with the title dropping to 2pts she still seems fair. That may change with new force talents of course. 92pts for Rey/title/Finn is still high enough that it won't get abused in my eyes.

Chewie needs a drop too, since he can only just fit 3 A-wings into a squad with him to utilize his ability. 69-70pts gives him a few extra pts to play with for list building which I think is necessary to get him on board.

I would probably lean towards keeping the Sympathizer +66pts as I don't think 3 Falcons is really that good. Right now its probably not an issue, but once we have some commander type crew from the resistance transport, that may change.

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Posted (edited)

I'm in the camp that Scum Falcons are probably about fine-ish, but maybe could come up a smidge in cost (at least Han, who's got far and away the best ability of the lot and is I6).  Rebel Falcons could all come down a bit, especially Chewie.  Resistance Falcons could come down the most.

So, basically I agree with the OP.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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10 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Chewie needs a drop too, since he can only just fit 3 A-wings into a squad with him to utilize his ability. 69-70pts gives him a few extra pts to play with for list building which I think is necessary to get him on board.

No, Chewie should want to have Z-95s pop, not A-Wings. There is far enough A-Wing in the meta thanks....

10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Lemme' put it this way. I can get 2-3 A-Wings for the cost of one Han. Why in the world would I ever pick him?

You wouldn't; you should't; you shan't, and will not, and wont.

RZ2A's will get a price bump up next time I'll wager.

7 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Star Wars without Han is just Wars.

Well played sir, well played.

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28 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

 

 

RZ2A's will get a price bump up next time I'll wager.

 

I'm not sold on this. Until the Resistance Transport drops, which is a fair bit down the line right now, Resistance has 4 ships. 2 of them are costly large bases, 1 of them is a small base that's not exactly cheap (cheapest T-70 is a hair shy of being a quarter of your list and most of the played pilots are over that threshold) and then you have the RZ-2. This is a super limited pool of options, so point changes will have massive repercussions on Resistance list building especially if you specifically target the cheapest ship, the one that can best fill points.

 

FO is currently suffering from a bit of this with a handful of pilots trying to carry an entire faction. We've also seen in 1.0 that 2 attack ships with low hp tend to have a knife's edge costing scheme where very small changes flip them from amazing to unplayable.

 

Given the small faction size, limited options and peculiar point spread among those options, it wouldn't surprise me if the RZ-2's stayed put through the next update.

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Posted (edited)

Um, maybe?

But TIE Bombers and Barrage both got bumped up and out because it was a solid full squad as well as amazing filler ship, as the RZA's are. And Jonus is the exact kinda good choice (diff reasons admittedly, but just as sparkly) as L'ulo so he'll (should) get the same whack. I mean, I love the little fire both way buggers, but they simply are too good compared to all their potential equal ships in other factions when you lay out chassis, dial, abilities, pilot initiative, and cost. Plus, by then I might be getting good at them so, if I do get good at them, they'll definitely get pushed up the price scale.

Edited by clanofwolves

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9 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Um, maybe?

But TIE Bombers and Barrage both got bumped up and out because it was a solid full squad as well as amazing filler ship, as the RZA's are. And Jonus is the exact kinda good choice (diff reasons admittedly, but just as sparkly) as L'ulo so he'll (should) get the same whack. I mean, I love the little fire both way buggers, but they simply are too good compared to all their potential equal ships in other factions when you lay out chassis, dial, abilities, pilot initiative, and cost. Plus, by then I might be getting good at them so, if I do get good at them, they'll definitely get pushed up the price scale.

I mean compare it to the Planetary Sentinel. 

Gains:

linked action

turret

trade 2 Hull for 2 shield 

boost

target lock

EPT

swap bomber and gunner (the gunner completely worthless on an I1) for missile and tech

better dial

access to Heroic (I would kill for that on defense)

-2 points

and all it loses is a red dice, but gains a green one.

They are absolutely not fairly priced against each other. And I’m coming around to the notion generic Strikers are decent to good if you have 3+. I’ve always felt the aces were amazing.

Speaking of, the I5 striker is 42 points. What are Lulo and Tallie? Right. 35 and 38. And when stressed Lulo has the same attack and defense as Duchess, for 4 points less. And has access to heroic.

Duchess is fairly priced.

Lulo should cost at least as much as her.

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2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

but they simply are too good compared to all their potential equal ships in other factions when you lay out chassis, dial, abilities, pilot initiative, and cost.

Then surely the common sense approach should be to improve the potential options from other factions, rather than ruin the only real option that the Resistance has for that type of ship/list?

Not all changes have to be nerfs to whatever is perceived as ‘too good’... you can buff up other platforms to compete against them on a more even footing.

RZ-2 A-Wings feel like they’re quite well balanced, in list building terms, as they are - the ‘sweet spot’ in generic terms is 5x GSE with AO, Heroic and Crackshot (we already had to give up Trickshot after the last points adjustment), and to get named pilots into the list you have to compromise by dropping AO on one or more and/or reducing the remaining i3s to i1s (also losing Crackshot as the i1s only have 1 Talent slot)

12 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

I mean compare it to the Planetary Sentinel.

I’m not convinced that’s a good basis for comparison, as they have to be flown very differently! I view the A-Wing as a ‘hit and run’ style of play, while the Striker is more of a highly maneuverable knife fighter - the combination of Ailerons and 1K can be brutal!

 

19 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

And when stressed Lulo has the same attack and defense as Duchess, for 4 points less. And has access to heroic.

Duchess is fairly priced.

 Lulo should cost at least as much as her.

I disagree. Duchesses ability makes her frighteningly adaptable against anything moving before her. Being able to choose whether or not to use Ailerons, even when stressed, makes it almost impossible to cut off all her avenues of escape... whereas a blocked L’ulo is likely a dead L’ulo! 😛

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20 hours ago, Skitchx said:
Rebel Han: 82 Points
Stats: 3 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 5 Shield
Actions: White Focus, Lock, Turret Rotate, Red Boost
 
Resistance Han: 76 points
Stats: 3 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 3 Shield
Actions: White Focus, White Lock, Red Boost, Red Turret Rotate
 
Scum Han: 54 points
Stats: 2 Red, 1 Green, 8 Hull, 3 Shield
Actions: White Focus, Lock, Turret Rotate, Red Boost

There’s definitely something a bit off there, when you consider that Scum Han to Rebel Han is effectively 28 points for a red die and 2 shields (ignoring any perceived difference in value for their ship abilities)

Scum Han to Resistance Han is 22 points for a red die, with one action being made red and a worse dial (no 4K, 4 forward is red, 3 forward is white)...

Something is definitely not right!

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