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2 hours ago, HeMandolorian said:

there is this clone from the clone wars tv show he was a normal clone trooper.

While the martial arts polecat covered all of the pertinent aspects of that clone’s story (not to mention, if he deserted after the Clone Wars started, and those were his kids...it would tend to suggest that their offspring would indeed experience accelerated aging), I’m not sure how his existence would refute my remark that an unaltered clone can’t be used as a reliable reference point for altered clones.

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18 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

While the martial arts polecat covered all of the pertinent aspects of that clone’s story (not to mention, if he deserted after the Clone Wars started, and those were his kids...it would tend to suggest that their offspring would indeed experience accelerated aging), I’m not sure how his existence would refute my remark that an unaltered clone can’t be used as a reliable reference point for altered clones.

I think that hits upon the reason for the slightly odd choice of having the kids be twi'lek-human hybrids (well, Pablo Hidalgo mentioned that they were intended to be, but canonically nothing has been stated) but not Cut's biological kids. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they were originally intended to be his kids, and designed (drawn? computer generated? My english vocabulary fails me) that way, with some features hinting at them being hybrids. Then as the episode is complete, someone does the math and realizes that if Cut would have to desert on the very first day of combat (which doesn't gel that well with him being the war-weary old veteran-archetype), go straight to Saleucami and start making babies (and twi'lek pregnancy lasting weeks rather than months) and the episode featuring his family taking place on pretty much the last day of the war for the kids to be the 3-6 year-olds they seem to be supposed to be (the Clone Wars only lasted four years). Could be explained away as a a case of twi'leks maturing faster, or accelerated aging, but the "not his biological kids" is probably the less forced explanation. ;) 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I think that hits upon the reason for the slightly odd choice of having the kids be twi'lek-human hybrids (well, Pablo Hidalgo mentioned that they were intended to be, but canonically nothing has been stated) but not Cut's biological kids. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they were originally intended to be his kids, and designed (drawn? computer generated? My english vocabulary fails me) that way, with some features hinting at them being hybrids. Then as the episode is complete, someone does the math and realizes that if Cut would have to desert on the very first day of combat (which doesn't gel that well with him being the war-weary old veteran-archetype), go straight to Saleucami and start making babies (and twi'lek pregnancy lasting weeks rather than months) and the episode featuring his family taking place on pretty much the last day of the war for the kids to be the 3-6 year-olds they seem to be supposed to be (the Clone Wars only lasted four years). Could be explained away as a a case of twi'leks maturing faster, or accelerated aging, but the "not his biological kids" is probably the less forced explanation. ;) 

Yeah, considering the first method you mentioned requires a TON of cumulative, stacking assumptions without any actual confirmation in canon, I think good old Occam's Razor is appropriate here, and say the easier explanation is "he hooked up with a single mom".   Rather than "He left the military really early AND found this one Twi'lek lady who likes getting freaky with humans, AND they just happen to have a really fast gestation cycle, AND they also happen to have a fast maturation rate compared to other sentients.  That's...just a lot of stacking variables that don't hold up well.  :D 

Edited by KungFuFerret

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah, considering the first method you mentioned requires a TON of cumulative, stacking assumptions without any actual confirmation in canon, I think good old Occam's Razor is appropriate here, and say the easier explanation is "he hooked up with a single mom".   Rather than "He left the military really early AND found this one Twi'lek lady who likes getting freaky with humans, AND they just happen to have a really fast gestation cycle, AND they also happen to have a fast maturation rate compared to other sentients.  That's...just a lot of stacking variables that don't hold up well.  :D 

Never underestimate the ability of a writer's good ideas to muck up a timeline.

Edited by penpenpen

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So as I browsed this thread, I'm somewhat surprised that nobody (as far as I saw, it was admittedly not a thorough viewing) mentioned the economic impact. (my apologies if it was mentioned)

Namely, in the spirit of planned obsolescence (and in the interest of future sales), any company would discourage self-repairing/self-replicating products, as far as is possible. Also, if they can augment the receptivity and combat effectiveness of clones, surely they can make changes to fertility (a seemingly (relatively) simple change compared to the personality traits they've mentioned)

How else would Kamino stay in business? Not saying all wars are short, but why cut yourself off from multiple sales? It makes no sense.

Therefore, by both the laws of commerce and Occam's Razor (and unless a player came to me with a compelling argument FOR such a thing characterwise) I would argue against the clones being able to reproduce.

As in all things in a fictional world, YMMV.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

So as I browsed this thread, I'm somewhat surprised that nobody (as far as I saw, it was admittedly not a thorough viewing) mentioned the economic impact. (my apologies if it was mentioned)

Namely, in the spirit of planned obsolescence (and in the interest of future sales), any company would discourage self-repairing/self-replicating products, as far as is possible. Also, if they can augment the receptivity and combat effectiveness of clones, surely they can make changes to fertility (a seemingly (relatively) simple change compared to the personality traits they've mentioned)

How else would Kamino stay in business? Not saying all wars are short, but why cut yourself off from multiple sales? It makes no sense.

Therefore, by both the laws of commerce and Occam's Razor (and unless a player came to me with a compelling argument FOR such a thing characterwise) I would argue against the clones being able to reproduce.

As in all things in a fictional world, YMMV.

****, my mind went to dark places with this. I mean, of course they can have kids, it's just that any offspring, or any clones of them, will suffer from a plethora degenerative bone and muscle diseases.

Because of course you code some copy protection into those genes, because sterilization doesn't stop anyone from cloning your clones.. 

And now I'm sad.

Edited by penpenpen

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1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

****, my mind went to dark places with this. I mean, of course they can have kids, it's just that any offspring, or any clones of them, will suffer from a plethora degenerative bone and muscle diseases.

Because of course you code some copy protection into those genes, because sterilization doesn't stop anyone from cloning your clones.. 

And now I'm sad.

You wouldn't download a clone, would you?

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On 4/1/2019 at 1:31 AM, oneeyedmatt87 said:

So as I browsed this thread, I'm somewhat surprised that nobody (as far as I saw, it was admittedly not a thorough viewing) mentioned the economic impact. (my apologies if it was mentioned)

Namely, in the spirit of planned obsolescence (and in the interest of future sales), any company would discourage self-repairing/self-replicating products, as far as is possible. Also, if they can augment the receptivity and combat effectiveness of clones, surely they can make changes to fertility (a seemingly (relatively) simple change compared to the personality traits they've mentioned)

How else would Kamino stay in business? Not saying all wars are short, but why cut yourself off from multiple sales? It makes no sense.

Therefore, by both the laws of commerce and Occam's Razor (and unless a player came to me with a compelling argument FOR such a thing characterwise) I would argue against the clones being able to reproduce.

As in all things in a fictional world, YMMV.

Your argument is flawed. Offspring of clones would not reduce the value of selling further clones. This is because said offspring themselves are not exact genetic copies of their fathers. As such, they’re not going to have the same exact capabilities as the clones, and would not bite into the profits derived from future sales.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Your argument is flawed. Offspring of clones would not reduce the value of selling further clones. This is because said offspring themselves are not exact genetic copies of their fathers. As such, they’re not going to have the same exact capabilities as the clones, and would not bite into the profits derived from future sales.

With respect, my argument is not flawed. I never claimed it would COMPLETELY devalue future clone purchases (as you seem to be asserting). Even if they retained SOME of the traits (which is what should happen, based on what we know of genetics), offspring of the clones would still be more ideal to train as a fighting force than the general population. In this way, they could potentially lower the incentive for customers to become repeat customers.

If your assertion were true, patents and copyrights would not exist. Also, not having "the exact same" capabilities is not necessarily an issue if done at a fraction of the cost. Much like the difference between "knock off/generic" vs brand name products. Can people pay a premium to get exactly what they want? Yes. Does it make the generic products invalid? Not at all. Do generics eat into the bottom line of brands? Absolutely.

And if they're already mucking about with the generic code... Why would they allow this potential?

As I said in my post YMMV. It's a fictional world. But please don't call my argument flawed and then postulate an equally flawed argument in rebuttal.

Edited by oneeyedmatt87

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19 hours ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

With respect, my argument is not flawed. I never claimed it would COMPLETELY devalue future clone purchases (as you seem to be asserting). Even if they retained SOME of the traits (which is what should happen, based on what we know of genetics), offspring of the clones would still be more ideal to train as a fighting force than the general population. In this way, they could potentially lower the incentive for customers to become repeat customers.

If your assertion were true, patents and copyrights would not exist. Also, not having "the exact same" capabilities is not necessarily an issue if done at a fraction of the cost. Much like the difference between "knock off/generic" vs brand name products. Can people pay a premium to get exactly what they want? Yes. Does it make the generic products invalid? Not at all. Do generics eat into the bottom line of brands? Absolutely.

And if they're already mucking about with the generic code... Why would they allow this potential?

As I said in my post YMMV. It's a fictional world. But please don't call my argument flawed and then postulate an equally flawed argument in rebuttal.

No, they wouldn't for one key reason. Clones have accelerated aging. the Kaminoans genetically engineer their clones to age at twice the speed of normal humans. This allows them to be trained and combat ready in half the time it would take for a naturally born child to grow up and be trained. This includes the offspring of clones. any offspring of a clone trooper would grow and age at the normal rate of a typical human, and thus, would take 18-20 years to become an effective soldier, if said child chose to follow that path. And that is the second key difference. A clone trooper's child is not a product to be bought or sold. The child is a free person

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6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they wouldn't for one key reason. Clones have accelerated aging. the Kaminoans genetically engineer their clones to age at twice the speed of normal humans. This allows them to be trained and combat ready in half the time it would take for a naturally born child to grow up and be trained. This includes the offspring of clones. any offspring of a clone trooper would grow and age at the normal rate of a typical human, and thus, would take 18-20 years to become an effective soldier, if said child chose to follow that path. And that is the second key difference. A clone trooper's child is not a product to be bought or sold. The child is a free person

Once again, a similar product (even if it isn't of the same quality) can have a slice of a market which cuts into the profits of the original, especially if the costs of creating the product are reduced, and thus the overall cost. To argue that it doesn't is to describe a universe without economic competition.

To counter your points:

a) Accelerated aging may or may not be passed from clones to their hypothetical children. Because it's in their genes, which make up (by definition) half of their offspring's genes. So there's a 50-50 chance that any offspring of a clone would retain this trait (I of course am generalizing. I'm not a geneticist, and I'm aware it's probably a multitude of factors).

b) Why would the child (or product, if you will) of a clone who was literally bought and sold, suddenly be bestowed rights/become a free person, just because they were incubated in a womb rather than a facility on Kamino? Even prior to the Clone Wars the Republic was (according to canon) not great at enforcing its anti-slavery laws (Episode I). When the Clone Wars started, they literally bought an entire army of sentients, removed parts of their free will (via biochip), and sent them to die on the front lines of a galactic war.  And this is just the Republic I'm talking about. What if the hutts ordered an army of several thousand and used them as breeding stock? No issues with slavery there I think.

Which brings me back to my original point. Why bother? Why would the cloners of Kamino leave the ability in if it has no demonstrable benefit and has at least the potential to disrupt the market?

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16 hours ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

Once again, a similar product (even if it isn't of the same quality) can have a slice of a market which cuts into the profits of the original, especially if the costs of creating the product are reduced, and thus the overall cost. To argue that it doesn't is to describe a universe without economic competition.

To counter your points:

a) Accelerated aging may or may not be passed from clones to their hypothetical children. Because it's in their genes, which make up (by definition) half of their offspring's genes. So there's a 50-50 chance that any offspring of a clone would retain this trait (I of course am generalizing. I'm not a geneticist, and I'm aware it's probably a multitude of factors).

b) Why would the child (or product, if you will) of a clone who was literally bought and sold, suddenly be bestowed rights/become a free person, just because they were incubated in a womb rather than a facility on Kamino? Even prior to the Clone Wars the Republic was (according to canon) not great at enforcing its anti-slavery laws (Episode I). When the Clone Wars started, they literally bought an entire army of sentients, removed parts of their free will (via biochip), and sent them to die on the front lines of a galactic war.  And this is just the Republic I'm talking about. What if the hutts ordered an army of several thousand and used them as breeding stock? No issues with slavery there I think.

Which brings me back to my original point. Why bother? Why would the cloners of Kamino leave the ability in if it has no demonstrable benefit and has at least the potential to disrupt the market?

1: From what examples we have of clones having offspring within the lore, said offspring did not age at an accelerated rate like his father did. So no, the children of clones do not age at an accelerated rate. 

2: Because there is still the other parent to consider. In the most notable example of a clone trooper having offspring, the mother was his Jedi commander. The child was raised in Mandalorian society by his adopted grandfather. 

3: why would they leave that capability? Why would they bother to remove it?  First, making them sterile would also reduce their testosterone levels, which, in turn reduces their aggression and combat effectiveness. As such, keeping them sexually capable is of great value and does nothing to "Disrupt" the market. 

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@Tramp Graphics @oneeyedmatt87

 

Tell you what guys, why don't you both go call up the Kaminoians and ask them what their long term product line strategy is for multi-generational customer retention, and when they give you the answer, you can come back here and inform us of it.  Because otherwise this is just pointless debating about a fictional thing in ways that are ultimately pointless.   I'm all for debating things, it's why I started this thread, but when you devolve to "you're wrong" "No you're wrong" about a 100% fictional thing, it's getting a bit silly.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

@Tramp Graphics @oneeyedmatt87

 

Tell you what guys, why don't you both go call up the Kaminoians and ask them what their long term product line strategy is for multi-generational customer retention, and when they give you the answer, you can come back here and inform us of it.  Because otherwise this is just pointless debating about a fictional thing in ways that are ultimately pointless.   I'm all for debating things, it's why I started this thread, but when you devolve to "you're wrong" "No you're wrong" about a 100% fictional thing, it's getting a bit silly.

I agree wholly on principle. And that actually was to be my last post on the subject. I'm not taking this very seriously, (as I said, anything in a fictional universe is wholly subjective).

But please, by all means, start a debate about a subject in a fictional universe, then condescendingly criticize people who take up the question for fun...

Edited by oneeyedmatt87
For clarity.

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9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First, making them sterile would also reduce their testosterone levels, which, in turn reduces their aggression and combat effectiveness. As such, keeping them sexually capable is of great value and does nothing to "Disrupt" the market. 

tenor.gif

Oh Trampy, you never fail to deliver. You're my go-to guy for absurd conjecture at this point.

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