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7 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Another question it might raise - how might the artificially accelerated aging that the Kaminoans engineered impact the offspring? Would that modification carry through in whole or part?

Nothing in the new canon, but Legends at least the children of clone troopers seemed to age at a normal rate.

And the accelerated aging was still a thing for the clone troopers, as Rebels gave us Rex, Wolfe, and Gregor as being rather old looking men given their chronological age, which was approximately 28 years assuming that Season 2 took place about 4 BBY and Rex's line in the TCW movie about him only being 10 years old.  Even assuming that Rex was indeed the old bearded guy on the Endor team in RotJ, he probably didn't live much past the toppling of the Empire and the founding of the New Republic simply due to old age; he'd very likely be long dead by the time TFA takes place.

Which in a twisted way makes sense for Sidious to have the clone troopers have a shortened shelf life, especially in light of how Order 66 was forcibly enforced via an implanted brain chip and that according to Dave Filoni a great many of the clone troopers had severe regrets over their participation in the execution of Order 66.  As Rex showed, even at his accelerated age a clone trooper with his combat experience proved a devastatingly effective asset in combating the Empire.

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19 hours ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

You guys bring up an interesting question. Not that it’s terribly important or relevant to the overall story, but was Jango Fett heterosexual? Do we have any canonical evidence of his sexuality or is he, as far as we know, just a life long bachelor that resorted to having himself cloned in order to procreate?

Obviously we have evidence that some of his clones were, but I have no idea if he or Boba was.

In Legends, Boba Fett married a woman names Sintas Vel, and fathered a daughter who, in turn, had a daughter of her own. So Boba Fett is a grandfather

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1 hour ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

While I like legends as much as the next guy (a fact that my bookshelf can attest to), it doesn’t count anymore, unfortunately. 

I think I have to respectfully disagree here, to a certain extent. Allow me to elaborate.

If, and when, I were to write any official story, hopefully adding it to the Star Wars universe canon one day, I think you are right. Lucasfilm would read it, comment on it, and if it were to deviate from their current plans and direction, it wouldn't even get published, let alone be part of canon. At best, it would be yet another Legends story that doesn't fit their current narrative, likely published by a third party, and then sued the heck out of due to copyrights and such.

However, if one of my players were to ask whether clones can (still) breed, and it were for the purposes of the narrative side of the roleplay game, I would say "to Infernum with canon and Legends. This is my game and I say...". Well, whatever I say. In my opinion, Legends, canon, fanboy-fiction, it all becomes a blurr where a game master may cherry-pick at his or her leisure. It's your game, so you decide. I even feel like this may differ from game to game. If in the previous campaign allowing clones not to breed turned out to be a problem, and you start a new campaign, by all means allow them to. Regardless of what canon, Legends, or any obscure internet reference tells you.

53 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Maybe worth remembering, Boba was specifically noted as being an unaltered clone, unlike the troopers.

So true. Makes me wonder if there is some sort of (official) list of the alterations they did make to the general clone population? We know about the accellerated growth, and their implants and indoctrination to make them more compliant to orders. others I missed due to not being up to speed on Clone Wars and Rebels?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

I think I have to respectfully disagree here, to a certain extent. Allow me to elaborate.

If, and when, I were to write any official story, hopefully adding it to the Star Wars universe canon one day, I think you are right. Lucasfilm would read it, comment on it, and if it were to deviate from their current plans and direction, it wouldn't even get published, let alone be part of canon. At best, it would be yet another Legends story that doesn't fit their current narrative, likely published by a third party, and then sued the heck out of due to copyrights and such.

However, if one of my players were to ask whether clones can (still) breed, and it were for the purposes of the narrative side of the roleplay game, I would say "to Infernum with canon and Legends. This is my game and I say...". Well, whatever I say. In my opinion, Legends, canon, fanboy-fiction, it all becomes a blurr where a game master may cherry-pick at his or her leisure. It's your game, so you decide. I even feel like this may differ from game to game. If in the previous campaign allowing clones not to breed turned out to be a problem, and you start a new campaign, by all means allow them to. Regardless of what canon, Legends, or any obscure internet reference tells you.

So true. Makes me wonder if there is some sort of (official) list of the alterations they did make to the general clone population? We know about the accellerated growth, and their implants and indoctrination to make them more compliant to orders. others I missed due to not being up to speed on Clone Wars and Rebels?

I don’t disagree with you. GMs can do what they want. If I ever GM a game of SWRPG again, I won’t be using anything from TLJ and will definitely cherry pick legends material to use as I see fit, because that would be my Star Wars universe, not the canonical one.

That doesn’t change what canon is though. And, nobody is playing the SWRPG in the canonical universe. We are all playing in our own alternate versions, and that’s great.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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24 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

I think I have to respectfully disagree here, to a certain extent. Allow me to elaborate.

If, and when, I were to write any official story, hopefully adding it to the Star Wars universe canon one day, I think you are right. Lucasfilm would read it, comment on it, and if it were to deviate from their current plans and direction, it wouldn't even get published, let alone be part of canon. At best, it would be yet another Legends story that doesn't fit their current narrative, likely published by a third party, and then sued the heck out of due to copyrights and such.

However, if one of my players were to ask whether clones can (still) breed, and it were for the purposes of the narrative side of the roleplay game, I would say "to Infernum with canon and Legends. This is my game and I say...". Well, whatever I say. In my opinion, Legends, canon, fanboy-fiction, it all becomes a blurr where a game master may cherry-pick at his or her leisure. It's your game, so you decide. I even feel like this may differ from game to game. If in the previous campaign allowing clones not to breed turned out to be a problem, and you start a new campaign, by all means allow them to. Regardless of what canon, Legends, or any obscure internet reference tells you.

So true. Makes me wonder if there is some sort of (official) list of the alterations they did make to the general clone population? We know about the accellerated growth, and their implants and indoctrination to make them more compliant to orders. others I missed due to not being up to speed on Clone Wars and Rebels?

 

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Maybe worth remembering, Boba was specifically noted as being an unaltered clone, unlike the troopers.

Based upon what was said in the movies, the only alterations to the clones were the genetic manipulation to give them accelerated aging, implants and indoctrination, making them more compliant to orders. No other modifications to their genome was done canonically. 

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6 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

We are all playing in our own alternate versions, and that’s great.

With that total agreement established; how would you rule abouth the question at hand if it were to pop up in a game you were game mastering?

I try to just go with the rule of cool in my games, so something narrative like the fertility of a clone matters so little. Rarely have I seen campaigns that went on over different generations, so an entire sub-species of clone/trueborn-human hybrids need not be more than a footnote. Also, dragging the answer out of the narrative, would allowing fertility (and not just for clones, by the way) entice game masters to provide the characters with additional motivations (AoR has "Family" as a "Specific Connection" for example), or even EotE style Obligations? I must add, that I consider things narrative, if they have no place, or just a note, on the character sheet, AND they have no numerical consequences (unlike Obligation that has a numerical value and clear effects when triggered). If you were wondering why I would see Motivations as non-narrative, remember that the Core Books (at least AoR, as I have that with me now) suggest the game master to call on Motivations to present a bonus towards resolving an action. Even adding a single Boost die would alter the percentages of success, which is numercal influence enough for me.

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1 minute ago, Xcapobl said:

With that total agreement established; how would you rule abouth the question at hand if it were to pop up in a game you were game mastering?

I try to just go with the rule of cool in my games, so something narrative like the fertility of a clone matters so little. Rarely have I seen campaigns that went on over different generations, so an entire sub-species of clone/trueborn-human hybrids need not be more than a footnote. Also, dragging the answer out of the narrative, would allowing fertility (and not just for clones, by the way) entice game masters to provide the characters with additional motivations (AoR has "Family" as a "Specific Connection" for example), or even EotE style Obligations? I must add, that I consider things narrative, if they have no place, or just a note, on the character sheet, AND they have no numerical consequences (unlike Obligation that has a numerical value and clear effects when triggered). If you were wondering why I would see Motivations as non-narrative, remember that the Core Books (at least AoR, as I have that with me now) suggest the game master to call on Motivations to present a bonus towards resolving an action. Even adding a single Boost die would alter the percentages of success, which is numercal influence enough for me.

I always assumed the clones could procreate. I’d rule it as such, although it likely would never come up unless it was relevant to a player character or campaign arc.

I created a character that I didn’t end up playing that was the offspring of a clone trooper. (Went with another character because of group considerations.)

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2 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

I always assumed the clones could procreate. I’d rule it as such, although it likely would never come up unless it was relevant to a player character or campaign arc.

I created a character that I didn’t end up playing that was the offspring of a clone trooper. (Went with another character because of group considerations.)

So I read on the first page of this thread. Which made me wonder about your stance as a possible game master. One's opinions on matters as a player may very well differ, though, from one's opinions on the same matter as a game master.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Xcapobl said:

So I read on the first page of this thread. Which made me wonder about your stance as a possible game master. One's opinions on matters as a player may very well differ, though, from one's opinions on the same matter as a game master.

To a degree and probably influenced by the GM of the game you’re playing in as a player, but I’m usually pretty open to player character ideas and backgrounds for games I run. Likewise, our GM for that game was pretty open to ours. Didn’t last terribly long, but it was fun while it did.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

Based upon what was said in the movies, the only alterations to the clones were the genetic manipulation to give them accelerated aging, implants and indoctrination, making them more compliant to orders. No other modifications to their genome was done canonically. 

I don’t recall saying otherwise. Simply that Boba can’t be used as a reliable yardstick for the clone troopers.

Sorry to ruin a perfectly cromulent “ackchyually” moment. 😜

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I always thought it weird that it was the clone troopers we saw as clones and others didn't use this technology.

 

In my game I created (kind of on the fly) a large supermarket chain that is operated by clones of the owner: "Satoshi's General Sundries and Droids". It's been a source of great amusement for my players as each department is ran by a "different" Satoshi (Doctor Satoshi, Hunter Satoshi, Mechanic Satoshi, Manager Satoshi). I think this was inspired by Nurse Joy from Pokémon...

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30 minutes ago, MrTInce said:

I always thought it weird that it was the clone troopers we saw as clones and others didn't use this technology.

 

In my game I created (kind of on the fly) a large supermarket chain that is operated by clones of the owner: "Satoshi's General Sundries and Droids". It's been a source of great amusement for my players as each department is ran by a "different" Satoshi (Doctor Satoshi, Hunter Satoshi, Mechanic Satoshi, Manager Satoshi). I think this was inspired by Nurse Joy from Pokémon...

Yeah, considering the technology wasn't some secret Imperial project that Palpatine had in place, but another species that just specialized in that kind of technology.  I mean, the way they behaved to Obi-Wan when he showed up, made it seem like this was their culture's primary export.  It was literally a business for them.  I mean you don't have cloning facilities to that scale for no reason.  That's a massive investment of resources and time on the part of their species for a "side project".  So it had to be the basis of their society really.  So yeah, it is odd that it wasn't more widely used.   Perhaps it was curtailed by quantity.  Like, they didn't do single clone jobs for people with vanity projects or something.  But they would do massive scale projects, which means it's basically limited to planetary governments or massive cartels being the "smallest scale" customer they could feasibly manage.   

I mean, we know the real answer, Lucas wasn't fleshing out the galaxy that much because he was telling a different story, and this was simply one piece that was ultimately a tool to get from Point A to Point B.   But it would make for a fun bit of storytelling, as a GM or player could feasibly justify any type of cloning they wanted with the Kaminoians being a "we clone, you buy!" kind of culture.

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8 hours ago, MrTInce said:

I always thought it weird that it was the clone troopers we saw as clones and others didn't use this technology.

 

In my game I created (kind of on the fly) a large supermarket chain that is operated by clones of the owner: "Satoshi's General Sundries and Droids". It's been a source of great amusement for my players as each department is ran by a "different" Satoshi (Doctor Satoshi, Hunter Satoshi, Mechanic Satoshi, Manager Satoshi). I think this was inspired by Nurse Joy from Pokémon...

 

8 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah, considering the technology wasn't some secret Imperial project that Palpatine had in place, but another species that just specialized in that kind of technology.  I mean, the way they behaved to Obi-Wan when he showed up, made it seem like this was their culture's primary export.  It was literally a business for them.  I mean you don't have cloning facilities to that scale for no reason.  That's a massive investment of resources and time on the part of their species for a "side project".  So it had to be the basis of their society really.  So yeah, it is odd that it wasn't more widely used.   Perhaps it was curtailed by quantity.  Like, they didn't do single clone jobs for people with vanity projects or something.  But they would do massive scale projects, which means it's basically limited to planetary governments or massive cartels being the "smallest scale" customer they could feasibly manage.   

I mean, we know the real answer, Lucas wasn't fleshing out the galaxy that much because he was telling a different story, and this was simply one piece that was ultimately a tool to get from Point A to Point B.   But it would make for a fun bit of storytelling, as a GM or player could feasibly justify any type of cloning they wanted with the Kaminoians being a "we clone, you buy!" kind of culture.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Kaminoans did have other "clients" out there. Not only that, but, cloning was pretty much how they "procreated". To quote:

Quote

After the disastrous end of an ice age on Kamino known as the Great Flood, Kaminoan society was pushed to the brink of extinction. Only through the development of a mastery over selective breeding, genetics, and cloning were the Kaminoans able to survive. The calculating instincts of survival required of the Kaminoans produced heavy marks upon their late forming culture. Kaminoans were minimalist in their designs; perfectionists to the point of intolerance. The impact of the harsh adaptations the Kaminoans were subjected to was also viewable in their inward focus and isolationism. Kaminoans focused on little else than their cloning and interacted with offworlders as little as possible.

 

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I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars series aside from some clips on Youtube, but from what was seen in Attack of the Clones, I would be very surprised if the clones weren't engineered to be sterile. They were bred and conditioned for obedience and loyalty, their sole function was a soldiers. Part of that would be removing any tendency toward a focus of loyalty other than the Republic, such as a family, or even a romantic attachment. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the clones were engineered not to have any kind of sex drive at all - they might not even have genitalia, beyond what's necessary for waste excretion.

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42 minutes ago, Dafydd said:

I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars series aside from some clips on Youtube, but from what was seen in Attack of the Clones, I would be very surprised if the clones weren't engineered to be sterile. They were bred and conditioned for obedience and loyalty, their sole function was a soldiers. Part of that would be removing any tendency toward a focus of loyalty other than the Republic, such as a family, or even a romantic attachment. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the clones were engineered not to have any kind of sex drive at all - they might not even have genitalia, beyond what's necessary for waste excretion.

From a logical stand point this would be right. Problem comes with how intrinsic development is linked to hormones. I know the kaminoans were good, but that good?

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26 minutes ago, MrTInce said:

From a logical stand point this would be right. Problem comes with how intrinsic development is linked to hormones. I know the kaminoans were good, but that good?

Well, the accelerated maturation rate engineered into the clones suggests that the Kaminoans were able to manipulate growth hormones to a signifcant degree, I think they'd have to be able to manipulate other hormonal factors as well to keep the clones developing correctly.

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1 hour ago, Dafydd said:

I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars series aside from some clips on Youtube, but from what was seen in Attack of the Clones, I would be very surprised if the clones weren't engineered to be sterile. They were bred and conditioned for obedience and loyalty, their sole function was a soldiers. Part of that would be removing any tendency toward a focus of loyalty other than the Republic, such as a family, or even a romantic attachment. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the clones were engineered not to have any kind of sex drive at all - they might not even have genitalia, beyond what's necessary for waste excretion.

Well just using Attack of the Clones would be a limited example to use, considering the clones were expanded on heavily in the very show you didn't watch.   Which did include at least one example of a clone that went off and indeed hooked up with another biological in a familial way.   So if the Kaminos did breed them to be sterile, or at least without a sex drive, it didn't entirely take.  And others have posted other examples from the franchise of clones hooking up with people in a romantic fashion.   So I think they probably didn't do that.  One, because I doubt Lucas really ever considered that an important detail to nail down one way or the other.  And another, because that's a significant alteration to the clones from their "baseline" version, all for something (blind loyalty to the Republic) that ultimately was explained away with a chip implant that compelled them to follow orders, including Order 66.  So there apparently wasn't any need to make that alteration, as they just decided to use technology to instill loyalty in the end anyway.    

Honestly I was just curious what, if any, examples of clones siring children, were canon, as I find the story potential fascinating.  I don't really care from a GM standpoint, as I already know what the answer would be at my table. "Yes, they can breed, and likely have done so in large numbers over the years."  I just personally love clone technology stories, and the particular stories about self identity, and agency that usually arise from such stories.  They are some of my favorite kind of sci fi stories, given my personal viewpoints on the subject matter (Artificial Intelligence being closely related to it for me, as interest goes), and Star Wars has this massive potential for such a story, and I couldn't recall it ever actually being explored.

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It's kind of interesting that there's enough clues to make a decent case either way.

I mean, considering that they're genetically modified to be soldiers and pretty much nothing else, it would make perfect sense if they lacked sex drive and/or fertility. You could even see this as reinforced by Cut Lawquane having married a woman who already had kids. Of course we don't know whether there was any sexual attraction between Cut and Suu or not, or if it was a platonic romantic relationship. It's also interesting that her kids just happened to be human-twilek hybrids though (according to word of god) possibly indicating that Cut wanted some kind of biological kinship to them. Or perhaps Suu just had a thing for humans. Or maybe it was just a coincidence. 

It's also noteworthy that the other clones we see outside army life are Rex, Wolf and Gregor, who mostly seem content to hang out in isolation with each other until they can join a new war. But there may be a myriad of reasons for that.

Of course, you could also it being evidence to the contrary, that it shows Cut having at least some kind of sex drive. And it's a perfectly reasonable argument that there was little reason for the Kaminoans to bother sterilizing them as their upbringing hardly geared them for any kind of sexual relationship nor does their lives seem to have much place. I can't recall ever seeing a clone trooper on leave, and you hardly see them interacting with civilians much, if at all.

So, biology aside, I think it would be a fairly reasonable assumption that most clones wouldn't have much interest in sex or procreation because the concepts barely exist in their world. On the other hand, were a clone to be introduced to it, they may very well develop such interests.

You could probably start an entire subtopic just on the nature vs nurture implications of clone troopers.

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One of the Boba Fett comics has him and Jango chasing down a clone commando who went AWOL before the clone wars started, that guy did get together with a woman and have a child before he was chased down. Said cousin to Boba was then part of some later comics. They were pretty decent, but not really canon anymore.

Add to that that we do see clones drinking, oogling ladies and generally getting rowdy while on leave at Coruscant and it does seem like the drive is still there alongside with some other social drives. So I would say clones can get kids and they do have the urge to get busy. No all of them will have a chance or feel it as hard as others, not all twins act the same way after all.

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On 3/19/2019 at 4:44 PM, Nytwyng said:

Maybe worth remembering, Boba was specifically noted as being an unaltered clone, unlike the troopers.

tumblr_inline_p55kixKp6E1updi6k_400.pngthere is this clone from the clone wars tv show he was a normal clone trooper.

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42 minutes ago, HeMandolorian said:

there is this clone from the clone wars tv show he was a normal clone trooper.

Yes he has been mentioned before, however it's been mentioned that those aren't his children, so that wouldn't establish them as capable of breeding.   I think it was left fairly vague in the episode, but someone stated that other material stated those were her children from a previous relationship.  

I mean, we know now that human/twi'lek hybrids are possible, so it's certainly a feasible, I just don't know how canon it is.  

Again, I don't really care either way, in regards to my table (the answer is yes if I'm the GM), I was just curious if it was ever established one way or the other in the franchise.   

I mean, let's say they created 1 billion clones over the course of the war (not an unreasonable number given the scope and size of the campaign).  If even just 1% of that population got busy and had children, that would be 10 million (assuming only one child per clone) siblings out in the galaxy, with a shared, direct ancestry.   That's basically a planetary population right there.  I dunno, I just find that concept fascinating when you stretch it out over a few generations of genetic drift, and migration across the galaxy.  

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