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A fundamental flaw in these games.

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13 minutes ago, crx3800 said:

While the battlefront games are in no way cannon, they imply there was a healthy troop fight around the trenches in front of the base. 

Could have been entirely off screen, while we were busy watching Han and Chewie argue over how to fix the Falcon. 

All new media including the video games are canon (the story parts anyway, like the Campaign of the 2017 Battlefront 2). Word of Mouse. 

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37 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

All new media including the video games are canon (the story parts anyway, like the Campaign of the 2017 Battlefront 2). Word of Mouse. 

Well. That's neat! Last one I played was the original Battlefront. 

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On 3/21/2019 at 3:52 PM, Caimheul1313 said:

Infinity, Warmahordes, and really any manufacturer of metal miniatures similarly do not provide as many modelling options as say Warhammer games, or multi-part plastic kits, yet many seem to be doing quite well for themselves.

For miniature game fans, modeling options is not really the driving factor, it's certainly a nice boost for the game, but the real bread and butter is army/model diversity and a large unit pool that makes these games successful.  Take for example Warmachine/Horde.  14 Factions, each faction has between 50-75 unique units with at least one unique model in each and often several unique models.  I could paint a new miniature from Warmachine/Horde every single day for the next 3 years and still not have a fully painted collection.  And don't even get me started on Warhammer 40k.

Consider as well that the top selling games on a steady basis are Warhammer 40k, Age of Sigmar and Warmachine followed by occasional oddities like D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis which aren't even really part of a game, more like models you can use for whatever purpose you want.  Assembly and Painting are a driving force of these games.  You could release 40k or Warmachine with pre-painted miniatures and no one will buy or play that game.

 X-Wing is an exception and this is because it is quantified by the industry as "miniature games", because "It has miniatures in them", but the reality is that games like X-Wing have far more in common with board games.  They have far more incommon to Imperial Assault, Gloomhaven or Ticket to Ride then they have to do with Warhammer 40k or Warmachines.  The line and definition of what a miniature game is, is very blurred these days.  Some called Imperial Assault a board game, others consider it a miniatures game, it could comfortably fit in either category.  If however you look at the audience, the "who plays it", you will find considerably fewer miniature game hobbyist and considerably more board gamers.  In fact, X-Wing is very often referred to as a starter miniature game among miniature gaming communities.

For example I'm hesitant to take someone who never played a mini game before and introduce them to Warmachine.  I might use X-Wing or Even Armada for that purpose, sort of ease them into it as I find that assembly and painting is intimidating to many.

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5 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

For miniature game fans, modeling options is not really the driving factor, it's certainly a nice boost for the game, but the real bread and butter is army/model diversity and a large unit pool that makes these games successful...... 

I beg to differ. Speaking as a fan of miniatures games, for me the appeal is primarily the modeling options and hobby aspect.   I love converting and painting minis. Years ago when I got started in the hobby I played 40k and built a Tau army, complete with a squad of human Troopers in Tau armor (converted from a box of fire warriors and a box of catachans) and some Kroot cavalry (a conversion involving a LotR cave troll head and some reptile mount from WFB). Fact is, I have very little opportunity for actual gaming so spending time on building great terrain and fun figures keeps me busy and entertained and sometimes there's even a game I can play with these things!  Once games get over-involved in their army building complexities, I usually check out. I was way in to Warmachine when it launched, but it got so complex and--detailed for lack of a better word--that I lost interest in it. I don't play 40k anymore either thanks to the way codices are released and used in play. Even X-Wing 1 got so much upgrade bloat that I stopped playing, even though I kept buying--because I like the toys. 

I anticipate that Legion will hold my interest given that it's Star Wars and I like modeling Star Wars stuff. Even when the rules go off the rails (which I expect it will) I'll be able to homebrew up my own rules, or just use this stuff for RPGs, or play WEG SWMB with it.

Honestly it's the models and the modeling that interests me about miniatures games and I couldn't give less of a dam* about board games or card games. And I know I'm not alone in that feeling. 

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6 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

For miniature game fans, modeling options is not really the driving factor, it's certainly a nice boost for the game, but the real bread and butter is army/model diversity and a large unit pool that makes these games successful. 

Modelling options aren't that important per se. Gamers could happily make whole armies with shockingly few modelling options and some gamers still do. I'm talking an entire army of 50-odd figures made up from monopose metals in half a dozen poses, say, 1 flag bearer, a wizard or something, and then a guy with a bow, a guy with a sword & shield, and a guy with a great weapon, maybe a cavalry model as well. You'd build up a units from one pose of trooper and a flag bearer. If you needed more heroes you'd paint one guys shield gold or something.

But the models themselves are very important. If I didn't care about models I'd play those other games like The Wizard of Oz Monopoly and 7 Wonders. Course if I didn't care about games I'd just collect not-gaming-toys or paint not-gaming-models. So there's definitely a balance to be struck for wargaming companies. A lot of the really interesting stuff is still being made by people who don't really care about the money that much, because they can afford to be bold and take artistic risks. 40k's model line is dying of safety. I'm sure they'll keep making money for a very long time but, they've become the radio Pop 40 playlist of gaming. It used to be a real crazy bunch of artists, now the parameters have been defined, they've got a formula for success that reads something like 3 parts skulls to 4 parts scrolls to 1 part candles to 2 parts spikes and 2 parts chains. It's fine and it works to make money but someone else is going to make all the really interesting stuff now. When I was a kid I rejected "mainstream" gamer-games like Dungeons & Dragons for this crazy new game from England called Warhammer: 40,000 ... Now that game is mainstream gaming and there's other new wild stuff. It's the circle of life.

More modelling options is better, but it's not necessary. I'd also put forth that modelling options are more important than stats. Mathematically exotic unit options aren't all that important to me. I can make my own new unit rules way easier than I can make my own miniatures. The uninitiated don't buy in because they hear Unit X has a really cool new upgrade card. I for one don't keep playing to try out new keyword abilities, but to plop new models onto the table.

Quote

 X-Wing is an exception and this is because it is quantified by the industry as "miniature games", because "It has miniatures in them", but the reality is that games like X-Wing have far more in common with board games. 

Once upon a time you could X-Wing on the boardgame shelf in Target and I think that speaks volumes. It uses cool looking pieces and won't work according to it's own self-definition without getting expansions. Which is very in keeping with miniature wargames. But I think it has a lot more in common with a boardgame than anything else.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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6 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Consider as well that the top selling games on a steady basis are Warhammer 40k, Age of Sigmar and Warmachine followed by occasional oddities like D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis which aren't even really part of a game, more like models you can use for whatever purpose you want.  Assembly and Painting are a driving force of these games.  You could release 40k or Warmachine with pre-painted miniatures and no one will buy or play that game.

I strongly disagree, and have evidence to support my supposition. I have personally seen people show up month after month with unpainted armies to game days, sometimes the same army, sometimes new ones. Additionally, if "no one wants pre-painted miniatures" then why do the eBay listings for prepainted units sell for more than the base cost of the plastic kit? I don't just mean listing, since anyone can put any price they want on it, I mean a currently in production plastic kit selling for more as an assembled and decently painted unit than if it had been left in a sealed box. Furthermore, companies like Blue Table Painting exist to sell people prepainted miniatures, or to paint miniatures for a client. Heck I have three friends that are each running slightly different painting services. If people wouldn't buy pre-painted miniatures to play 40k or Warmahordes, why are they willing to pay other people to paint the miniatures?

Edited by Caimheul1313

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2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I strongly disagree, and have evidence to support my supposition. I have personally seen people show up month after month with unpainted armies to game days, sometimes the same army, sometimes new ones.

Scifi and fantasy gamers seem almost hostile towards the idea of properly painted armies for some reason. I know a guy who brags that he's played the same 40k faction since forever and a day because he likes it how it performs. You'd think in all those years he could have found time to glue his skimmers to actual bases instead of laying them flopped over on the table...

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Personal experience differ I suppose.  I have been playing miniatures games since Battletech back in the late 80's, you would be hard pressed to name a miniature game I haven't played or a community I haven't been a part of since that time and to this day I have never met a person (in real life at a table) that would field an unpainted unit without apologizing and having a feather of shame at showing up with something not ready for display.  In fact, in most local communities I have participated in there were often hard rules about not allowing unpainted miniatures at the table because people seemed irritated by the fact. 

Personally I never really cared but reading the posts here things have apparently changed a great deal recently.  Though I find it odd as even in my recent foray into Warmachine, members of the group I play in would delay scheduled game sessions because "their army wasn't ready", as in, it was not fully painted yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't typically participate in competitive play but as I recall the tournaments and leagues (official ones) that I have participated in, in the past actually had a requirement to paint your army and quite restrictive rules about model modification.  I always assumed that this is where the must be painted sentiment came from.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Additionally, if "no one wants pre-painted miniatures" then why do the eBay listings for prepainted units sell for more than the base cost of the plastic kit? I don't just mean listing, since anyone can put any price they want on it, I mean a currently in production plastic kit selling for more as an assembled and decently painted unit than if it had been left in a sealed box.

I find it rather odd that you use quotes illustrating a point and a quote no one actually made.  Perhaps your referring to someone else but I don't think I at any point suggested "no one wants pre-painted miniatures".  What I said is that if you released 40k pre-painted miniatures, 40k players would not suddenly start buying them up.  For 40k players, the hobby comes first and its really not a surprise considering that 40k is such a simplistic base game.  I mean, X-Wing has more tactical mustard by a wide margin than 40k and I think most people don't even consider it a full miniatures game.

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45 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I find it rather odd that you use quotes illustrating a point and a quote no one actually made.  Perhaps your referring to someone else but I don't think I at any point suggested "no one wants pre-painted miniatures".  What I said is that if you released 40k pre-painted miniatures, 40k players would not suddenly start buying them up.  For 40k players, the hobby comes first and its really not a surprise considering that 40k is such a simplistic base game.  I mean, X-Wing has more tactical mustard by a wide margin than 40k and I think most people don't even consider it a full miniatures game.

If no one one will play the game that indicates that no one wants pre-painted miniatures, but you duck the issue, and ignored the rest of my post.

For most 40k players I've seen in person an online the hobby does NOT come first, the game does. The tournament scene is full of players who swap to whatever army list is out that month, often paying others to paint their miniatures for them because of tournament requirements. The three colour minimum that tournaments have is to force players to have a painting army. If hobby came first, there would be no need for such a requirement, since everyone would just have everything painted. I've seen more Warhammer 40k/AoS players using unpainted armies in casual settings than I've seen fully painted armies. 

Pre-painted 40k miniatures already exist, they are just sold by third party sellers rather than directly by Games Workshop. People sell painted units and armies on eBay all the time, and often get more money than the individual value of the units just because they come pre-assembled and pre-painted. And these listings are selling, which means someone is buying them. Given that GW has been releasing more and more "push fit" or "easy build" miniatures, it seems that they are even moving a bit away from encouraging the hobby aspects. Which indicates if they started offering pre-painted miniatures, they would sell. Maybe not to everyone, but quite a few players would be buying.

Again, if for all 40k players the hobby comes first, how do painting services stay in business? The vast majority of sample pieces from painting companies I can find are 40k units and armies they have painted for customers. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Personal experience differ I suppose.... What I said is that if you released 40k pre-painted miniatures, 40k players would not suddenly start buying them up.  For 40k players, the hobby comes first and its really not a surprise considering that 40k is such a simplistic base game.

I have a GW store and about two private shops with in-store gaming near me. Plus another GW store and another private store that closed since I've live near here. This doesn't count the several FLGS's near me that don't have in-store gaming or which do but, I don't frequent. If gaming stores per square mileage is anything to go by, we have a LOT of gamers here.

Of the five of the above, all the communities fielded unpainted 40k/Sigmar/Warmachine armies as the rule not the exception. Often the models aren't even properly assembled. In all cases, the clubs/communities wear it as a badge of honor that they don't require painting. They seem weirdly proud of fielding unpainted broken models from eBay. As if hippie artsy painting is beneath their grim military tactical genius. Then there's the ones who say painting would make people feel excluded if they don't feel like painting and exclusion is the worst thing ever, ever: these people hypocritically have no issue with excluding people who lose a round of cuts in a tournament. The other trope is "I don't want to paint them until I can do it like a total pro, anything less than Golden Demon is ruining the model" which is ridiculous.

I got really tired of being the only one with a painted army so I pretty much stopped playing in stores. Plus people treated me like I was an object of pity for not minmaxing my list using whatever official models came to hand.

I boils down to a culture of instant gratification. So I agree with Camheuil,  if they sold pre-painted figures the 40k base would snap them up. Unless they could find cheaper, but technically official, utter garbage pieces of broken and/or horribly painted old models online to use instead. My favorite is the ork "looted tanks". You name a newest, bestest, OP ork vehicle, I've seen it represented to the max in lists as a "looted chasis". That means they took some beat up old imperial or eldar vehicle of the same vague category (tank, bike, etc) and glued an ork or grot model to it, and put it on the table without any further application of tools, bitz or paint. Next time the meta changes, they do it all over again. Another good one is gretchin artillery. It's a common sight with them. Let's pretend for the moment Zzap Guns can dominate the meta. So the ork players buy as many used Zzap gun models (from whatever edition) and fill in any missing crew with 2nd edition plastic core set gretchin (invariably with the spikes snapped off the helmets or a disgusting coat of Testors enamel!) and have at. To be fair to ork players writ large, the best stuff I usually see is also orky for some reason.

Space marines can do the same thing but... they're spared the hassle of gluing "grot riggers" onto busted up old eBay tanks.

Fielding eyesores is the norm around here and people are oddly proud of how resourceful they are in exploiting the meta of the moment while meeting the letter of the lists/WYSIWYG with the least amount of time and money possible.

For me, the hobby is not necessarily first, but it is utterly inextricable. I won't field an unpainted model, no matter what. I won't field a model with its arm snapped off. But I am pretty much the only scifi/fantasy gamer I know around here who holds themselves to that. Now historical is a different story, those guys paint their stuff. Legion, oddly, also is mostly painted in store play from what I've seen.

I also wouldn't call 40k "simplistic" like it's a bad thing. Partly because I think 40k is overly-complicated, but also because chess has pretty simple rules.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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27 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

I have a GW store and about two private shops with in-store gaming near me. Plus another GW store and another private store that closed since I've live near here. This doesn't count the several FLGS's near me that don't have in-store gaming or which do but, I don't frequent. If gaming stores per square mileage is anything to go by, we have a LOT of gamers here.

Of the five of the above, all the communities fielded unpainted 40k/Sigmar/Warmachine armies as the rule not the exception. Often the models aren't even properly assembled. In all cases, the clubs/communities wear it as a badge of honor that they don't require painting. They seem weirdly proud of fielding unpainted broken models from eBay. As if hippie artsy painting is beneath their grim military tactical genius. Then there's the ones who say painting would make people feel excluded if they don't feel like painting and exclusion is the worst thing ever, ever: these people hypocritically have no issue with excluding people who lose a round of cuts in a tournament. The other trope is "I don't want to paint them until I can do it like a total pro, anything less than Golden Demon is ruining the model" which is ridiculous.

I got really tired of being the only one with a painted army so I pretty much stopped playing in stores. Plus people treated me like I was an object of pity for not minmaxing my list using whatever official models came to hand.

I boils down to a culture of instant gratification. So I agree with Camheuil,  if they sold pre-painted figures the 40k base would snap them up. Unless they could find cheaper, but technically official, utter garbage pieces of broken and/or horribly painted old models online to use instead. My favorite is the ork "looted tanks". You name a newest, bestest, OP ork vehicle, I've seen it represented to the max in lists as a "looted chasis". That means they took some beat up old imperial or eldar vehicle of the same vague category (tank, bike, etc) and glued an ork or grot model to it, and put it on the table without any further application of tools, bitz or paint. Next time the meta changes, they do it all over again. Another good one is gretchin artillery. It's a common sight with them. Let's pretend for the moment Zzap Guns can dominate the meta. So the ork players buy as many used Zzap gun models (from whatever edition) and fill in any missing crew with 2nd edition plastic core set gretchin (invariably with the spikes snapped off the helmets or a disgusting coat of Testors enamel!) and have at. To be fair to ork players writ large, the best stuff I usually see is also orky for some reason.

Space marines can do the same thing but... they're spared the hassle of gluing "grot riggers" onto busted up old eBay tanks.

Fielding eyesores is the norm around here and people are oddly proud of how resourceful they are in exploiting the meta of the moment while meeting the letter of the lists/WYSIWYG with the least amount of time and money possible.

For me, the hobby is not necessarily first, but it is utterly inextricable. I won't field an unpainted model, no matter what. I won't field a model with its arm snapped off. But I am pretty much the only scifi/fantasy gamer I know around here who holds themselves to that. Now historical is a different story, those guys paint their stuff. Legion, oddly, also is mostly painted in store play from what I've seen.

I also wouldn't call 40k "simplistic" like it's a bad thing. Partly because I think 40k is overly-complicated, but also because chess has pretty simple rules.

What area are you in out of curiosity?

I think one of the nice things about legion is that it has pulled a lot of players from the FFG star wars family of games (imperial assault, X-wing, Armada) which are pretty hardcore about WYSIWYG.  I mean, in X-wing they even require non model components like cards and faction specific dials to be correct.  So the Legion community is already pre-trained to expect that.

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44 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

What area are you in out of curiosity?

I think one of the nice things about legion is that it has pulled a lot of players from the FFG star wars family of games (imperial assault, X-wing, Armada) which are pretty hardcore about WYSIWYG.  I mean, in X-wing they even require non model components like cards and faction specific dials to be correct.  So the Legion community is already pre-trained to expect that.

Boston.

The issue for the 40k crowd is not WYSIWYG. If they take 7 meltaguns, they're all meltaguns. Just. Y'know. An old metal Ultramarine meltagun bought offline in an otherwise new grey ostensibly Blood Angel plastic tactical squad, etc. etc.

I don't know if the FFG crowd writ large is any better or worse, given the wailing and lamentation over the Adepticon 3 color rule and the constant "it doesn't impact the actual game" lines of argument I've seen on here. Plus, the models haven't existed long enough to create a backlog on eBay of disgusting glue-encrusted horrors.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

Boston.

The issue for the 40k crowd is not WYSIWYG. If they take 7 meltaguns, they're all meltaguns. Just. Y'know. An old metal Ultramarine meltagun bought offline in an otherwise new grey ostensibly Blood Angel plastic tactical squad, etc. etc.

I don't know if the FFG crowd writ large is any better or worse, given the wailing and lamentation over the Adepticon 3 color rule and the constant "it doesn't impact the actual game" lines of argument I've seen on here. Plus, the models haven't existed long enough to create a backlog on eBay of disgusting glue-encrusted horrors.

Yeah the flip side of the FFG crowd is the fact that many treat it like a pure competitive board game.  It's one of the reasons Tabletop Simulator and Vassal are so popular for X-wing and Legion (outside of the obvious convenience value).  I've never really found simulated tabletop to be very compelling because for me a huge part of the experience is the physical terrain and minis, not to mention getting to interact with other players face to face

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2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If no one one will play the game that indicates that no one wants pre-painted miniatures, but you duck the issue, and ignored the rest of my post.

For most 40k players I've seen in person an online the hobby does NOT come first, the game does. The tournament scene is full of players who swap to whatever army list is out that month, often paying others to paint their miniatures for them because of tournament requirements. The three colour minimum that tournaments have is to force players to have a painting army. If hobby came first, there would be no need for such a requirement, since everyone would just have everything painted. I've seen more Warhammer 40k/AoS players using unpainted armies in casual settings than I've seen fully painted armies. 

Pre-painted 40k miniatures already exist, they are just sold by third party sellers rather than directly by Games Workshop. People sell painted units and armies on eBay all the time, and often get more money than the individual value of the units just because they come pre-assembled and pre-painted. And these listings are selling, which means someone is buying them. Given that GW has been releasing more and more "push fit" or "easy build" miniatures, it seems that they are even moving a bit away from encouraging the hobby aspects. Which indicates if they started offering pre-painted miniatures, they would sell. Maybe not to everyone, but quite a few players would be buying.

Again, if for all 40k players the hobby comes first, how do painting services stay in business? The vast majority of sample pieces from painting companies I can find are 40k units and armies they have painted for customers. 

I gotta be honest with you I have no idea how these painting services stay in business.  30+ years gaming, I have never met a person that bought a pre-painted army.  Chalk it up to personal experiences.  Maybe its an American thing.

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:53 AM, TauntaunScout said:

This is running into problems with things like DnD. It would work better for me if no number of pistol rounds could possibly hurt it, but one direct shot from an AT-ST could bring it down. Not sure how that can work in FFG's model of custom icon dice and such though. It's hard for that sort of thing to properly distinguish between a lot of rifle or one cannon.

You could have a keyword called Low-Impact that turns crits into hits for stuff like pistols against armor.

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1 minute ago, BigKahuna said:

I gotta be honest with you I have no idea how these painting services stay in business.  30+ years gaming, I have never met a person that bought a pre-painted army.  Chalk it up to personal experiences.  Maybe its an American thing.

To be fair, how would you know if it was pre-painted or otherwise painted by someone other than your opponent? Unless they openly advertised or honestly answered if you asked, you would have no way of knowing what is or isn't a pre-painted army. Which is a minor problem that some army painting competitions have, in that unless the player admits it, or another player outs them, people may be winning prizes for commissioned work.

I would be surprised if it was just an American thing, since I can find a fair number of painting services in the UK, Australia, and Europe with just some very quick Googling. I can't imagine paying to ship an army twice overseas with proper padding, domestic mail would be bad enough. People wanting painted armies but not having the time to paint, or wanting to paint is fairly universal, so I can't say I'm surprised. 

Also, the fact that some of your local communities have rules against unpainted miniatures shows to me that there are still some people for whom the hobby does NOT come first, otherwise such rules would be entirely unnecessary, since wouldn't everyone in general have everything painted, and the occasional unpainted miniature for unforseen circumstances be so rare as to not really be a problem necessitating a rule?

Yes, for some people the hobby is at least as important as the actual game if not moreso, but for other people the game is the most important part. 

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51 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Boston.

.... 

A pity! You and I seem to have overlapping tastes where these games are concerned. Sadly, I live in Portland and there's a whole continent stretching between our two cities. Elsewise I'd invite you for a game! 

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5 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Yeah the flip side of the FFG crowd is the fact that many treat it like a pure competitive board game.  It's one of the reasons Tabletop Simulator and Vassal are so popular for X-wing and Legion (outside of the obvious convenience value).  I've never really found simulated tabletop to be very compelling because for me a huge part of the experience is the physical terrain and minis, not to mention getting to interact with other players face to face

Yeah I was always fascinated by things like model railroads and museum dioramas and such, this genre of game definitely lends itself to that type of interest. I think there was a real sea change when CCG's became a fad. Aesthetics went out the window and a math-only style of play that used to be begrudgingly tolerated from one or two players in a club or gaming group became the norm. People used to filter in from RPG's during the RPG fad, then they filtered in from CCG's. Now there's kind of a eurogame fad and new people they filter in from boardgames that use "meeples" and lots of dial counters. RPG's also have an inherent DIY element that lent itself to taking some ownership of an army and playing with your painted army (meta be d****d) as-is because it was your PC so to speak. RPG players would also take an army list they thought seemed plausible yet balanced for assorted threats. It didn't matter if the anti-vehicle weapons sucked for their points, you took one in your army just in case of a vehicle (because that's what you thought "your guys" would do) and that was how it was.

There is no such mindset pre-existing within the players of Magic: The Gathering or Carcassone. If all I cared about was the game and/or competing with someone, I'd pour that energy into making money, not spending it, and win in real life.

I fear that the underlying cold hard truth is, there's an impolite and interrelated reason why 1) most scifi/fantasy wargame armies aren't painted and 2) most SCA/LARP costumes look so awful. I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions as to what that is, or PM me if you have some reason to academically discuss this aspect of modern western subculture.

 

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

otherwise such rules would be entirely unnecessary,

Maybe not. Making it a written rule is a good way to head off bickering. Making minimum expectations clear to new people might make it a lot less daunting too. They get the maximum expectations pushed at them in the pages of glossy magazines already. The minimum might need to be spelled out, for sanity's sake.

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10 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Maybe not. Making it a written rule is a good way to head off bickering. Making minimum expectations clear to new people might make it a lot less daunting too. They get the maximum expectations pushed at them in the pages of glossy magazines already. The minimum might need to be spelled out, for sanity's sake.

Fair enough. I do know from the rules for the RPG meetup group in my area that if something is in a group's rules, it is often there due to some past problem, not just spelling out minimums in advance. If the rule is just "army must be painted," then I'd contend that it isn't really there to spell out minimums, as opposed to "three color minimum" with example pieces shown, and some kind of basic painting guide provided to new players. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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On 3/24/2019 at 12:34 PM, Katarn said:

If Imperial armour is 100% impervious to non anti-tank blasters what were those numpties in the trenches on Hoth playing at? Hoping an AT-ST would slip in their mashed remains?  

LOL

I actually think the armor system works pretty well and represents reasonably the effects of sustained small arms fire. I mean I assume "in real life" you don't expect a bunch of DLTs to stand around plinking at an ATST with impunity.

Now maybe that just means I don't think there is enough blast keyword on the armor mounted weapons though... *shrug*

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10 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Fair enough. I do know from the rules for the RPG meetup group in my area that if something is in a groups rules, it is usually there due to some past problem, not usually spelling out minimums. If the rule is just "army must be painted," then I'd contend that it isn't really there to spell out minimums, as opposed to "three color minimum" with example pieces shown, and some kind of basic painting guide provided to new players. 

If you don't have a rule, things can go sideways. In reenacting groups we have all kinds of rules that are set down to make sure everyone is on the same page. They have nothing to do with past problems. There's no problem that causes a group to adopt a policy of shell jackets instead of sack coats, or whatever. There's a lot of pros and cons to different things and eventually you reach a consensus to how you want to do things, and going forward that's the rule.

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8 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

LOL

I actually think the armor system works pretty well and represents reasonably the effects of sustained small arms fire. I mean I assume "in real life" you don't expect a bunch of DLTs to stand around plinking at an ATST with impunity.

Now maybe that just means I don't think there is enough blast keyword on the armor mounted weapons though... *shrug*

I agree with about armour, it doesn't feel too flimsy to me, especially given the number of delicate looking electronics they leave outside of the armour.  I'm always impressed by how well barricades stand up to repeated shots by Impact X weapons, that should be the new armour for the Imperial Tank (I'm aware it's an abstraction for ease of gameplay). 

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6 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I agree with about armour, it doesn't feel too flimsy to me, especially given the number of delicate looking electronics they leave outside of the armour.  I'm always impressed by how well barricades stand up to repeated shots by Impact X weapons, that should be the new armour for the Imperial Tank (I'm aware it's an abstraction for ease of gameplay). 

Yes. The same exact vehicle used as the basis for a scenery kit is impervious to blasters. Right.

But ye olde games did things like have believable vehicle rules, rules for destroying cover, etc. They took forever to play if anyone actually indulged in such things though.

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

To be fair, how would you know if it was pre-painted or otherwise painted by someone other than your opponent? Unless they openly advertised or honestly answered if you asked, you would have no way of knowing what is or isn't a pre-painted army. Which is a minor problem that some army painting competitions have, in that unless the player admits it, or another player outs them, people may be winning prizes for commissioned work.

I would be surprised if it was just an American thing, since I can find a fair number of painting services in the UK, Australia, and Europe with just some very quick Googling. I can't imagine paying to ship an army twice overseas with proper padding, domestic mail would be bad enough. People wanting painted armies but not having the time to paint, or wanting to paint is fairly universal, so I can't say I'm surprised. 

Also, the fact that some of your local communities have rules against unpainted miniatures shows to me that there are still some people for whom the hobby does NOT come first, otherwise such rules would be entirely unnecessary, since wouldn't everyone in general have everything painted, and the occasional unpainted miniature for unforseen circumstances be so rare as to not really be a problem necessitating a rule?

Yes, for some people the hobby is at least as important as the actual game if not moreso, but for other people the game is the most important part. 

I'm not suggesting people don't buy pre-painted armies, I'm pointing out the overwhelming majority do not.  

I'm not entirely sure why some clubs/shops or groups come up with strict rules for the table that sometimes include rules about having painted armies, I have never set any such rules for clubs/groups I have ever run.  From what I have observed it seems to be a kind of etiquette in the community, a way to show respect to your opponent.

I think it stands to reason that miniature gamers get into the hobby because of the visual spectacle of the game, its the table presence that captures peoples imagination and that is what miniature gamers try to recreate with terrain and painted mini's in their own games.   

 

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2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I agree with about armour, it doesn't feel too flimsy to me, especially given the number of delicate looking electronics they leave outside of the armour.  I'm always impressed by how well barricades stand up to repeated shots by Impact X weapons, that should be the new armour for the Imperial Tank (I'm aware it's an abstraction for ease of gameplay). 

Yeah I kinda feel like barricades... shouldn't really exist.

Basically barricades are just terrain theme neutral obstructions that should be massive boulders, or thick walls, or something if you were playing at the 'big-kid table' but because you have to include something in the box for folks who are starting out miniature games, they threw them in.

I actually kinda hate playing with them, and if I do I prefer to try and talk people into treating them as light cover.

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