Jump to content
AlKusanagi

Wait, astromechs can't repair speeders?!?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Bacta!

The roots of it, honestly, seem to be fantasy "healing spells". They're a solid game mechanic even if they make no sense when moved into a non-magical setting. Historical miniature wargames and Fantasy RPG's between them were the big dogs for a very long time. Hence that particular fantasy gaming trope was turned into things like "space marine apothecaries" and "medpacs". Maybe if scifi gaming had been invented independently the basic combat mechanics would work better without "healers". But gamers  like things in games to be the way they've known them: for example, trolls across gaming systems are still pretty much that one troll from Three Hearts, Three Lions. DnD apparently copied trolls (including physical description) from that particular book's single troll encounter, and everything else changed copied troll stats (regenerate, vulnerable to flames) and sometimes physical features, from DnD.

So we stick with things like "healing spells" under a new name, and throw in "repairs" to be a healing spell for tanks and robots. It's a gaming convention, it's not terribly realistic, but it works and it's fun and makes for a good story after the game.

Hit points in general (let alone restoring them) make no sense if you really think about it but they work and they're fun.

Edited by TauntaunScout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The roots of it, honestly, seem to be fantasy "healing spells". They're a solid game mechanic even if they make no sense when moved into a non-magical setting. Historical miniature wargames and Fantasy RPG's between them were the big dogs for a very long time. Hence that particular fantasy gaming trope was turned into things like "space marine apothecaries" and "medpacs". Maybe if scifi gaming had been invented independently the basic combat mechanics would work better without "healers". But gamers  like things in games to be the way they've known them: for example, trolls across gaming systems are still pretty much that one troll from Three Hearts, Three Lions. DnD apparently copied trolls (including physical description) from that particular book's single troll encounter, and everything else changed copied troll stats (regenerate, vulnerable to flames) and sometimes physical features, from DnD.

So we stick with things like "healing spells" under a new name, and throw in "repairs" to be a healing spell for tanks and robots. It's a gaming convention, it's not terribly realistic, but it works and it's fun and makes for a good story after the game.

Hit points in general (let alone restoring them) make no sense if you really think about it but they work and they're fun.

Rapid field repairs of this nature on vehicles are implausible in real life, but extensively supported by the fiction so I have a hard time dinging the designers on that count.

Fly by repairs is a stretch... wish they'd let us put the droid into the vehicle, but *shrug*.

On the other hand medic mechanics I find to be an abstraction of perfectly realistic morale. We play mini games like Legion with 4-5 individual figures but in reality any group of soldiers that has taken even 25% casualties is going to rout and be completely combat ineffective. if they were meant to realistically represent the exact number of soldiers in a squad, you'd take one wound and your squad should be removed from play.

So think of our 4 figures as an abstraction for the 'critical' casualties - just the number of hits a much larger squad of 8-12 can take - much like their pose and position on the battlefield in discrete turns is an abstraction. Also worth noting is that any mini removed is not 'dead', just wounded badly enough to not be able to continue fighting.

When viewed this way, stims and medic make perfect sense. Soldiers stay in the fight as a coherent unit longer when they know their fallen comrades are going to be okay and get the help they need. Medics represent enough field first aid and care, that when one person is wounded, it doesn't tie up two or three other soldiers. The medic cares for the casualty, the others keep going, and as such the critical number represented by the minis remains the same.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

On the other hand medic mechanics I find to be an abstraction of perfectly realistic morale. We play mini games like Legion with 4-5 individual figures but in reality any group of soldiers that has taken even 25% casualties is going to rout and be completely combat ineffective. if they were meant to realistically represent the exact number of soldiers in a squad, you'd take one wound and your squad should be removed from play.

Depends... as Shelby Foote famously said, if we had a battle today with 10% casualties, it would be looked on as a bloodbath, but in the 19th century they had battles with 25, 30 and 50% casualties, and one after another after another. In pre-flintlock warfare, battles with over 90% casualties for the losers weren't at all unheard of.

So it depends on Star Wars' culture, weapons, mode of warfare, etc.

And now for just another shameless plug for DBA where 1/3 casualties pretty much means you lose!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Depends... as Shelby Foote famously said, if we had a battle today with 10% casualties, it would be looked on as a bloodbath, but in the 19th century they had battles with 25, 30 and 50% casualties, and one after another after another. In pre-flintlock warfare, battles with over 90% casualties for the losers weren't at all unheard of.

So it depends on Star Wars' culture, weapons, mode of warfare, etc.

And now for just another shameless plug for DBA where 1/3 casualties pretty much means you lose!

My understanding is that those types of casualties are a result of the aftermath of the battle, not fighting units taking that level of casualty and remain effective.

Regardless, the point is that there are in fact ways to have medics operate in a miniatures game at this level, where they represent something other than 'healing spells poorly grafted onto your fiction'. A WWII or modern combat with this mechanic for example would be perfectly reasonable. 

I'll leave it to others to argue as to whether Star Wars ground combat should be more closely modeled on Vietnam, WWII, Afghanistan, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CaptainRocket said:

My understanding is that those types of casualties are a result of the aftermath of the battle, not fighting units taking that level of casualty and remain effective.

Oh yes... some of them took far more casualties and kept going. "Effective" is debatable, but, there were regiments in pre-WWI era that took very high double-digit %'s of casualties and kept fighting.

Now, for big picture purposes, casualties include wounded, killed in action, and captured. So the roughly 50k or so casualties at Gettysburg includes people who surrendered.

Quote

A WWII or modern combat with this mechanic for example would be perfectly reasonable.

Not in the amount of time a turn represents. They're to make sure more people wind up in the hospital than the morgue. Not to put people back in the fight who would otherwise be incapacitated. But I don't think it's a poorly grafted mechanic, I think it works and it's fun. Even if it does lead to occasional odd situations like the fly-by fixing of speeders (a pit-crew of prequel R2's with rocket boosters perhaps?). I can get behind a medical model removing "wounds" from things a lot better than I can get behind the game hinging on overlapping bubbles of keywords, and exploiting abstractions within the order of operations.

Edited by TauntaunScout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see lost models due to damage as just ineffective  fighters.  Maybe they took a graze to the arm which results in aim being off so they don't contribute to the fireing pool.  This way a medic could easily give them an adrenaline shoot or bacta equivalent to get them not healed up but back in the fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Not in the amount of time a turn represents. They're to make sure more people wind up in the hospital than the morgue. Not to put people back in the fight who would otherwise be incapacitated. But I don't think it's a poorly grafted mechanic, I think it works and it's fun.

I don't think you understood what I wrote at all.

The abstraction medics represent is a reduction in morale impact, and diverting of other combat resources to tending for casualties. They do not represent putting people back in the fight, but keeping more of the unit in the fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

I don't think you understood what I wrote at all.

The abstraction medics represent is a reduction in morale impact, and diverting of other combat resources to tending for casualties. They do not represent putting people back in the fight, but keeping more of the unit in the fight.

Thats not necessarily true. After all, we are dealing with space magic medicine here.

One of the biggest inhibitors of someone who is injured is pain. Even non-life-threatening injuries can cripple someone's ability to do anything because they are in too much pain to do anything.

Blaster shots also have one feature that actually makes them somewhat ideal for a quick fix solution, they are going to be mostly burn wounds which won't cause their targets to bleed out. In theory, one could have a spray on liquid medical substance that more or less instantly stops further burn damage while also sealing the wound off to prevent infection. Combine this with some sort of fast acting strong painkiller and so long as the wound was not immediately lethal the individual could conceivably be back in the fight within a few minutes. Maybe not at 100%, but enough to keep firing their blaster.

So they can easily be a combination of both being a morale boost and some actual immediate medical treatment.

Edited by BadMotivator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I just imagine it like the healing droid stations in the original Battlefront games, where you'd be surrounded by blue circles and your health bar slowly goes up.

Only if you make the noise while it does it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Only if you make the noise while it does it. 

I thought making that noise was required by the rules already.  No wonder people look at me funny during games....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They just use bluetooth to diagnose and repair while the speeder flies by. :D Bluetooth has a short range so they just can't do it from anywhere! Maybe a console just got knocked a little and needs a quick tape down. The astromech just shoots a spider man style web at the speeder to put it back together from a distance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And for repairs, the damage might not be structural damage which would require you to haul it back to the shop. Perhaps the energy from the blaster bolt just overloaded the computer and it needs to be rebooted. Or maybe the impact jostled a few wires loose, punctured a fuel line, or something else that could be done with a quick fix. At least enough to get it back fighting at full potential. After the battle the jury rigged fix will probably need to actually be fully repaired, but its good enough for the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that astromech repairing speeders make sense only if they are on board... or as in another topic is being discussed, if a "break mechanic" allows a stop (meaning skiping mandatory move). Otherwise it makes no sense right? I know wargames aren't simulations but a minimum of logic needs to stay in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Andreu said:

 I know wargames aren't simulations

They kinda are though. Otherwise wookies would be snipers and e-webs would be close combat units if game balance dictated it.

I agree they should only be able to repair repulsorcraft that they are onboard. Like the upcoming landspeeder.

Edited by TauntaunScout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...