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rsdockery

Thoughts on TSN player cards

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19 hours ago, Antimarkovnikov said:

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Good News! The "other" word exception means that they don't take up the Dunwich investigator's 5 cards from OTHER classes slots!

My insert does not say this.

It says: "If an investigator has limited access to one of the classes on a multiclass card, that card will still occupy one of those slots, even if the investigator has unlimited access to that card's other class."

Nothing after that.  DO we have an issue here?  Where did you get this?

Edit:  Issue = Different rules depending on which copy/printing you received.

Edited by Jobu

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I see that the published campaign guide on their website includes the verbiage as Antimarkovnikov wrote it.

So I still have to question, which is right and which is wrong?

Edit: I find the printed rules easier to follow than the electronic ones.  They are just cleaner.

Edited by Jobu

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The rules with the other clause is the one officially posted in the documents on the ffg product page, making it the official ruling as that is the one they can change on the fly. 

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4 minutes ago, Doma0997 said:

The rules with the other clause is the one officially posted in the documents on the ffg product page, making it the official ruling as that is the one they can change on the fly.  

I mean that only makes sense if you think they never make mistakes when posting things electronically.  I have seen them make to many mistakes in this area (although their FAQs are solid).

Is there anything else to confirm which is right?  I am open to either, I just am looking for some confirmation.

Edited by Jobu

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28 minutes ago, Jobu said:

I even wonder why need multi class cards in the first place.

We already have neutrals and we have investigators that can take cards from multiple classes/roles.

I recognize that this is just another dial but how many dials do the developers really need to have?

I get they exist and that they are mechanical distinct and I will use them and all but just because a design space can exist is not a reason to use it. 

I also agree that the words are unnecessarily confusing.

It does feel like they missed a trick. The idea of the cards branching off into two distinct versions of the same card has a lot of fun mechanical flavour, with the classes taking their own unique approach to the same concept, but in terms of actual mechanics it feels pretty empty, a whole lot of confusion for not much gain. You don't need the level 0 version to upgrade it into the level 3 version, and it's 0 exp so you don't get a discount for upgrading it into the single-class variant, so there's no need to necessarily follow the mechanical path of taking the general concept and giving it your class' "spin" when you could just buy the level 3 single class version on its own, at which point the idea of creating multiple different versions of the same card doesn't have much impact in practical terms for most people - if instead of the upcoming two versions of the .45 Thompson they released a level 3 rogue gun called like "Beretta 1918" and a level 3 Guardian gun called like "Lewis Gun" instead of the two branching versions of the .45 Thompson, it wouldn't change anything except for allowing Lola to take 2 copies of each, and maybe Finn, if they both have the "Illicit" trait (leaving aside the fact that this scenario would allow you to have the "Lewis Gun" and the ".45 Thompson (0)" at the same time).

I really wish the multi-coloured cards had a split colour or colour gradient rather than just the gold colour, it would look a lot cooler and more distinct, and would make them a lot less similar-looking to the Seeker cards.

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1 minute ago, CSerpent said:

Wait....how many slots does Grisly Totem take for Carolyn then?

One, since she has access to it as a Seeker card and the Survivor part is ignored since she doesn't have access to Survivor in the first place (just like if Daisy included it).

The question is, how many slots does Scroll of Secrets take for her (or how many of the 5 off-class slots would Grisly Totem take up for, say, Finn or Zoey)? By far the most logical approach would be for it to take one slot, since it's a single card, and things would quickly get absurd if a card counts as two cards, but the rules are still very ambiguous, as they contain clauses like "it is a level 0 Seeker card and a level 0 Mystic card" which could be read in two different ways.

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7 minutes ago, Allonym said:

One, since she has access to it as a Seeker card and the Survivor part is ignored since she doesn't have access to Survivor in the first place (just like if Daisy included it).

The question is, how many slots does Scroll of Secrets take for her (or how many of the 5 off-class slots would Grisly Totem take up for, say, Finn or Zoey)? By far the most logical approach would be for it to take one slot, since it's a single card, and things would quickly get absurd if a card counts as two cards, but the rules are still very ambiguous, as they contain clauses like "it is a level 0 Seeker card and a level 0 Mystic card" which could be read in two different ways.

Thanks, that's actually what I meant.  Lost my mind on which classes she takes.

Edited by CSerpent

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Just now, CSerpent said:

Thanks, that's actually what I meant.

Oh right, that makes sense.

The devs have said that they're going to publish a new errata any time now which will do into detail about how the multi-class cards work. They're a tangle of rules questions at least as thorny as Time Warp was. So I guess we'll wait and see. The difference between the printed inserts and the rules .pdf online has already muddied the water - for what it's worth, I think it's safe to ignore the printed insert in favour of the online .pdf since the printed version contains unambiguous mistakes.

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2 minutes ago, Allonym said:

Oh right, that makes sense.

The devs have said that they're going to publish a new errata any time now which will do into detail about how the multi-class cards work. They're a tangle of rules questions at least as thorny as Time Warp was. So I guess we'll wait and see.

The crazy thing is that, without all the awkward "clarifications", the rules are pretty clear.

The rules on deck building Options are clear.

The rules on deck building Requirements are clear.

The only thing causing confusion is some badly worded attempt to cause Options to act like Requirements, in some fairly obscure cases, based on the lack of a keyword that some cards do not have, but have had errata'd.

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Just now, ColinEdwards said:

The crazy thing is that, without all the awkward "clarifications", the rules are pretty clear.

The rules on deck building Options are clear.

The rules on deck building Requirements are clear.

The only thing causing confusion is some badly worded attempt to cause Options to act like Requirements, in some fairly obscure cases, based on the lack of a keyword that some cards do not have, but have had errata'd.

I don't know that they're clear, mostly because of Lola. Does a given card count for both of its classes for her deckbuilding requirements? The moment you say "yes" to that question, all the issues currently under discussion arise again, because suddenly it becomes possible for a card to fit into two different categories at once.

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43 minutes ago, Allonym said:

I don't know that they're clear, mostly because of Lola. Does a given card count for both of its classes for her deckbuilding requirements?

So: step 1 - make sure you understand her Options and her Requirements.

You choose among the Options

You adhere by all Requirement

You don't get to choose which Requirement you are filling.

Of course it counts for both Requirements.

End of Story

Where is the confusion?

(If had been an Option to have 7 different cards from 3 different classes, not a Requirement, you choose which class it is applying to and it does need to match them all.)

Edited by ColinEdwards

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I think Enchanted Blade is a real reasonable level 0 weapon for 3 strength investigators that can take it.  It's like three thrown knives, but you don't need to spend the separate actions to put them in your hand each time.  I don't mind the charges (especially if Akachi gives it an extra one).  It just feels similar to firearms with their bullet restriction.  Though Enchanted Blade still does something if you run out of charges (or need to deal out odd damage), which is nice and it's downside of taking up an arcane slot might not be that big a deal (especially if you aren't gonna use the slot or are planning on slotting Shrivelling in there when the sword is used up).  I like it as a level 0 combat stop gap for mystics until they get their Shrivelling up, or for a Guardian that needs that +2 combat to feel more reliable.  I could see taking it in a level 0 deck for Akachi, Jim or Diana.  Maybe even Skids.  I haven't made a Skids deck in a while.  Certainly for the Dunwich investigators it's value is dependent on how many slots the sword will require.

I think the luke warm response the card is receiving here is because people are comparing it to experienced cards.  Seems like a reasonable level 0 option right now.  I don't think this is a card you hold onto as you experience up.  Especially since we'll be getting a leveled up version of Enchanted Blade anyway.

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I would think the printed insert would be much older than the rules online since the files have to go through approvals and then to the manufacturer/printer and then print and ship. 

The thing is that cards already DO fit into two categories even ignoring 'gold' cards for deck building already in some cases (for example, in Carolyn a level 0  mystic card that heals horror... it IS both types of cards, but it only counts as a card that heals horror). So this conversation isn't explicitly about 'multi-class' cards, it's about deck requirements and restrictions.

Edited by Soakman

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13 minutes ago, Soakman said:

The thing is that cards already DO fit into two categories even ignoring 'gold' cards for deck building already in some cases (for example, a level 0  mystic card that heals horror... it IS both types of cards, but it only counts as a card that heals horror). So this conversation isn't explicitly about 'multi-class' cards, it's about deck requirements and restrictions.

This is a case where being clear about the difference between Options and Requirements will help 

For Options, you get to choose among the valid ones. You can match ANY option.

For Requirements, you have the match ALL of them.

ANY( Option ) and ALL( Requirements )

Edited by ColinEdwards

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On 3/14/2019 at 2:48 PM, rsdockery said:

Well, now that The Secret Name is official out, who wants a general player card discussion topic? I've posted my personal thoughts on each card here; anyone have a different take?

It says in your write up that Diana can take custome ammo but I don’t believe she can? She can take guardian cards level 0 - 2. Custom ammo is guardian level 3?

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1 hour ago, Burgie1996 said:

 It says in your write up that Diana can take custome ammo but I don’t believe she can? She can take guardian cards level 0 - 2. Custom ammo is guardian level 3?

You're right; she can't. Should have been "Extra Ammo."

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I must say that enchanted blade looks pretty good to me too, especially in multiplayer for secondary enemy slayer, such a Joe in our group.... it gives flexibility on when to pump, yet still gives the +1, and it’s a relic.... you can easily upgrade to something else as you see fit....

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19 hours ago, CSerpent said:

As someone who liked having Dr Elli hold the Ornate Bow for Ursula, I look forward to trying the Enchanted Blade instead.

Any particular reason? Fight (1 + (1 or 2, depending on charge use)) for 1 or 2 damage vs. Agility (4 + 2) for 3 damage seems a huge difference on accuracy of attack, as well as damage dealt. The Bow one-shots a lot of enemies, and thanks to the bonus Investigate action, I think Ursula probably has the actions spare to reload if needed.

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5 hours ago, dysartes said:

Any particular reason? Fight (1 + (1 or 2, depending on charge use)) for 1 or 2 damage vs. Agility (4 + 2) for 3 damage seems a huge difference on accuracy of attack, as well as damage dealt. The Bow one-shots a lot of enemies, and thanks to the bonus Investigate action, I think Ursula probably has the actions spare to reload if needed.

Yeah, it's been a while, I guess I was forgetting the agility thing, and I have had trouble getting off the nocking action.  Still, it's an option for a first scenario weapon.

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Again it's not fair to compare Enchanted Blade to Ornate Bow.  Blade is a level 0 weapon.  I would assume (as CSerpent pointed out) it's not a bad idea to take it in a level 0 deck if you plan on slotting Ornate Bow later. You just replace the blades with the bows.  Solo Ursula doesn't have a ton of great combat options at level 0 so it's nice for her to have at least one more that gives her a +2 to her combat to give her a chance if you feel like you need it.

Edited by phillos

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3 hours ago, phillos said:

Again it's not fair to compare Enchanted Blade to Ornate Bow.  Blade is a level 0 weapon.  I would assume (as CSerpent pointed out) it's not a bad idea to take it in a level 0 deck if you plan on slotting Ornate Bow later. You just replace the blades with the bows.  Solo Ursula doesn't have a ton of great combat options at level 0 so it's nice for her to have at least one more that gives her a +2 to her combat to give her a chance if you feel like you need it.

Unless you're running solo, I wouldn't have Ursula packing a weapon in her starting deck - get her a Trench Coat instead, and Evade the gribblies while the rest of your party beat them to a pulp.

Ornate Bow is decent for her down the line (not that I've managed to fire mine yet in TFA), mainly in Elli's hands, but only because it works off Agility, not Fight.

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