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Akhrin

Vader (squad)

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Posted (edited)

darth-vader.png

Doing a bit of a thought exercise here. I want Vader squad to be good, but at the same cost as Maarek why take him? Let's see what we can come up with...

Vader differs from Maarek in having Escort, and treating all "crit" results as "hit" results, let's exploit these. 

All his crits are damage, so we want him to be rolling as many dice as he can as often as possible, so we pair him with Jendon for a second attack, and bring a Quasar with Flight Controllers so one of those attacks will get the extra dice. That's nice, but nothing Maarek can't do. So let's find him more chances to attack, let's add Dengar to give him Counter 1. Now every time he's attacked he's getting a 0.75 damage back. That's a start, so let's just do more of the same by adding Instructor Goran to the Quasar to make him Counter 2. 1.5 damage back each time he's attacked. 

Hmm, we're talking about doing damage back when attacked, and he's got Escort so he's going to be target number one. Queue Soontir Fel for an extra damage on the defence there. We're now doing a lot of splash damage, and we've got both Escort and Intel so sure, Mauler Mithel can tag along too. 

Fine, but once Vader's gone this whole plan falls apart pretty fast. Let's throw in some more Escort. For me this is gonna be Zertik, he'll be getting the Counter 2 as well as Vader, also has a pair of Brace tokens, and can throw damage onto Jendon for re-rolls when needed. At this point we've got 25pts left so let's double down on the Escort and take an Advanced, and Tempest Squadron, 4 Escorts now to protect Dengar/Mauler/Soontir, a good bit of Counter, some nice chunky hull.

1 Dengar ( 20 points) 
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points) 
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points) 
1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points) 
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points) 
1 Zertik Strom ( 15 points) 
1 TIE Advanced Squadron ( 12 points) 
1 Tempest Squadron ( 13 points) 
= 134 total squadron cost

And that, folks, is how you spend your entire 134pts worth of squads (plus the Quasar) on a sub-par gimmick. Then come up against opponents with all ships and watch your squad wing flail wildly trying to do anything. Or watch a dedicated fighter wing tear apart Vader in a single activation. Fun. 

Edited by Akhrin

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I always felt Vader was thematically very wrong in this game. It’s probably time FFG did an errata card pack.

Vader should arguably be the best unit in the game for fighters when taking innate skill, decades of experience & force abilities into account. 

He should be a 30 point unit. Expensive but an absolute monster against squads & ships.

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Posted (edited)

If you drop Zertik, Tempest and the Advanced you have the start of a decent Sloane ball.  Definitely Saber, and maybe even bring some generics; they’re either temporarily escorted to make up for their fragility or you’ll be killing everything too quickly anyway...

 

Heck, he could make a decent wingman for Phantoms.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

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15 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

If you drop Zertik, Tempest and the Advanced you have the start of a decent Sloane ball.  Definitely Saber, and maybe even bring some generics; they’re either temporarily escorted to make up for their fragility or you’ll be killing everything too quickly anyway...

 

Heck, he could make a decent wingman for Phantoms.

Stop being so sensible! But yeah, actually having that as part of a Sloane ball without the other group of Advanced could work, you've got Vader's Counter doing something on every dice face (against Aces at least), and they've gotta get through him to get to the rest of them. 

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Posted (edited)

Why not do good old MMJ?

Vader/Dengar/Fel/Maarek/Morna/Jendon is 126 points. Throw Goran on a Gozanti nearby and you still have counter 2 Vader, counter 3(!) Morna (with her reroll available on a counter as well) and Soontir damage on top of that. And antiship output of this squad is no joke at all (esp vs squad less fleets).

Edited by PT106

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I thought that if we are responsible with this god level build, and remove goran, we can try to implement the #1 ship in the Imperial navy, the Victory. It has Victory in the name, so we will definitely win. 

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Fighter Ambush
Navigation: Superior Positions

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Slicer Tools (7) (maybe comms net, but i'm feeling aggressive)
= 30 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Suppressor (4)
= 34 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Taskmaster Grint (5)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Boosted Comms (4)
• Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
• Squall (3)
= 77 Points

Victory I (73)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Governor Pryce (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Warlord (8)
= 128 Points

Squadrons:
• Darth Vader (21)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Dengar (20)
• Morna Kee (27)
• Soontir Fel (18)
= 127 Points

Total Points: 396

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18 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

I thought that if we are responsible with this god level build, and remove goran, we can try to implement the #1 ship in the Imperial navy, the Victory. It has Victory in the name, so we will definitely win.

Why not drop Quasar and get a real ship? You only need to command 5 squadrons, so 2 Gozantis + Victory is more than enough for that.

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38 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Why not drop Quasar and get a real ship? You only need to command 5 squadrons, so 2 Gozantis + Victory is more than enough for that.

yes, that is a very good idea.

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Slicer Tools (7)
= 30 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Suppressor (4)
= 34 Points

Victory I (73)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Governor Pryce (7)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• External Racks (3)
• Warlord (8)
= 126 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 75 Points

Squadrons:
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Dengar (20)
• Darth Vader (21)
• Soontir Fel (18)
• Captain Jonus (16)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
= 131 Points

Total Points: 396

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Gotta say, I'm liking the direction this is going! But if one Victory is good, then surely more Victory is better? Because after all, who doesn't want more Victory? So going with the MMJ-Vader squad ball:

The Chiss and the Sith 
Author: Akhrin

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 393/400  

Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Close-Range Intel Scan
Defense Objective: Jamming Barrier
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
-  Governor Pryce  ( 7  points) 
-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points) 
-  Boosted Comms  ( 4  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 93 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Instructor Goran  ( 7  points) 
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points) 
= 32 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
-  Grand Admiral Thrawn  ( 32  points) 
-  Captain Brunson  ( 5  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Disposable Capacitors  ( 3  points) 
-  Quad Battery Turrets  ( 5  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 141 total ship cost

1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points) 
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points) 
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points) 
1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points) 
1 Dengar ( 20 points) 
1 Morna Kee ( 27 points) 
= 127 total squadron cost

 

I'm wondering about whether Thrawn's the being for the job here. Intrigued by what Piett offers VSDs, but also found Palpatine to be pretty decent last night and feel like he'd help chew through an ace ball pretty quickly. 

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4 hours ago, Akhrin said:

I'm wondering about whether Thrawn's the being for the job here. Intrigued by what Piett offers VSDs, but also found Palpatine to be pretty decent last night and feel like he'd help chew through an ace ball pretty quickly. 

Piett vs Thrawn is a very easy choice as Piett can only be used once and he requires a token. Palp may be an option, but I do think your vics need to be able to nav and squads or nav and con fire

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55 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Piett vs Thrawn is a very easy choice as Piett can only be used once and he requires a token. Palp may be an option, but I do think your vics need to be able to nav and squads or nav and con fire

Yeah, I know what you mean about Piett vs Thrawn. But it's a big points saving, and if it's just the VSD1 I really care about about Thrawn squadding then Piett and Comms Net can (kind of) get that going. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Akhrin said:

Yeah, I know what you mean about Piett vs Thrawn. But it's a big points saving, and if it's just the VSD1 I really care about about Thrawn squadding then Piett and Comms Net can (kind of) get that going. 

So you just Thrawn a Nav? Then one can con fire and the other can squad. The points in the end doesn't pay off. because to get Piett going, you need a squad or nav token already,which doesnt work as well. it would be nice to have a token and command you know? Also, Goran is a waste of points... I appreciate the try to make him work, but the truth is that those 7 points could buy us some nice stuff.

Edited by Cleto0

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17 hours ago, Akhrin said:

Yeah, I know what you mean about Piett vs Thrawn. But it's a big points saving, and if it's just the VSD1 I really care about about Thrawn squadding then Piett and Comms Net can (kind of) get that going. 

I haven’t tried Piett, but I think you’re right on here. If you’ve got a squadron-Heavy fleet with at least one Comms Net Gozanti and only one or two bigger activations, I think Piett is the right choice. 

If you’re doing Piett, the natural choice is also an Interdictor. You can potentially use Piett twice each round that you aren’t using the Interdictor title to refresh Brunson or Targeting Scramblers. Unfortunately, it’s a little more expensive than the Vic-2, so you’d have to downgrade the Vic-1 back to a Quasar, but no matter. Dictor+Quasar+Gozanti is solid and it opens up better objective choices too with your Grav Shift.

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IDK what y'all are doing over there, but I'm going to try this eventually instead of my normal Hateful 8.  Could be worth the cost of losing Ciena and Saber just to keep Mauler ticking longer?  Or Valen and Gary the Generic could instead be Saber and Black Squadron.

 

• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Darth Vader (21)
• Dengar (20)
• Howlrunner (16)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Valen Rudor (13)
• TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 134

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

I haven’t tried Piett, but I think you’re right on here. If you’ve got a squadron-Heavy fleet with at least one Comms Net Gozanti and only one or two bigger activations, I think Piett is the right choice. 

No. Piett isn't good. Even on a Dictor.  The only benefit of Piett is that he is cheaper, but is he really? 

1. You have to spend a token every time you use him

2. He is exhaust

3. You most likely will only want his effect for 3 turns *ahem Thrawn*

4. It is a 10 points difference between him and Thrawn

4. Do you REALLY want to bring a dictor? 

5. Are you sure?

6. When you have a Interdictor, are you wanting to also give it Grint or Wulff to make it work every turn *ahem additional points... erhm... THRAWN*

7. Thrawn two ship is 100% a real thing... just an FYI if you haven't heard of it...

Edited by Cleto0
#7

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1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

No. Piett isn't good. Even on a Dictor.  The only benefit of Piett is that he is cheaper, but is he really? 

1. You have to spend a token every time you use him

2. He is exhaust

3. You most likely will only want his effect for 3 turns *ahem Thrawn*

4. It is a 10 points difference between him and Thrawn

4. Do you REALLY want to bring a dictor? 

5. Are you sure?

6. When you have a Interdictor, are you wanting to also give it Grint or Wulff to make it work every turn *ahem additional points... erhm... THRAWN*

7. Thrawn two ship is 100% a real thing... just an FYI if you haven't heard of it...

1. Irrelevant 

2. Irrelevant

3. Untrue

4. That’s huge

4(b). Absolutely 

5. Yes again.

6. No, I prefer Comms Net and Hondo.

7. Then do Thrawn 2-Ship if you like

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2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Add Jonus. Then the advanced ball has added worth. (Cleto0 already suggested this but nobody seemed to notice)

Big fan of Jonus, always a nice addition to any squad ball!

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Posted (edited)
On 3/16/2019 at 4:01 PM, CommanderDave said:

1. Irrelevant 

2. Irrelevant

3. Untrue

4. That’s huge

4(b). Absolutely 

5. Yes again.

6. No, I prefer Comms Net and Hondo.

7. Then do Thrawn 2-Ship if you like

I am amazed that you do not think that spending a token is a big cost. also Comms net and Hondo is only 6 points away from Thrawn. also you cannot have a gozanti doing squads every round because he is token stacking for you. When do you want to spend a token on round 1 or 2 where you couldn't use a token?  I am fine with an Interdictor, and it was kinda just a joke, but I was saying that it is pretty inefficient to use the Interdictor title to use Piett multiple times... lets add the Interdictor title into the point cost of Piett+upgradeS vs Thrawn... Thats only 3 points away from thrawn, and you do not have to spend any tokens. I was referencing Thrawn two ship because you referenced the fact that you only have two large activations. Also, are you willing to risk getting MS-1ed? 😊 

tldr- I do not think that Piett is well costed or his ability well done. If you are willing to constantly spend tokens to make him work, go for it. I on the other hand, will stick to my slicer proof Thrawn

 

Edited by Cleto0

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On 3/16/2019 at 7:26 PM, Cleto0 said:

I am amazed that you do not think that spending a token is a big cost. also Comms net and Hondo is only 6 points away from Thrawn. also you cannot have a gozanti doing squads every round because he is token stacking for you. When do you want to spend a token on round 1 or 2 where you couldn't use a token?  I am fine with an Interdictor, and it was kinda just a joke, but I was saying that it is pretty inefficient to use the Interdictor title to use Piett multiple times... lets add the Interdictor title into the point cost of Piett+upgradeS vs Thrawn... Thats only 3 points away from thrawn, and you do not have to spend any tokens. I was referencing Thrawn two ship because you referenced the fact that you only have two large activations. Also, are you willing to risk getting MS-1ed? 😊 

tldr- I do not think that Piett is well costed or his ability well done. If you are willing to constantly spend tokens to make him work, go for it. I on the other hand, will stick to my slicer proof Thrawn

 

His comparison to Thrawn is apt and I do consider him inferior in many situations, but he’ll help win you the bidding war if you want to take first and do a Squall alpha-strike. The Interdictor title can be used for Piett as needed, but you’d have to weigh that against Brunson and Scramblers. I wouldn’t add anything into his points cost. I already bring Comms Net, Hondo, and the Interdictor title to the table quite often. These upgrades just happen to synergize with Piett. Also, if someone uses MS-1s on Piett instead of Brunson or Scramblers, I’m ok with that.

It sounds like you’re happy with Thrawn. He’s obviously a great choice. In the right fleet, Piett can be too I suspect. Time will tell on that one though.

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7 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

I already bring Comms Net, Hondo, and the Interdictor title to the table quite often.

But you can't use them for anything except for Piett now? So they do factor into his cost because they are being used to make his ability work and nothing else? If you won't use Piett twice, then you could brunson twice. I could see you saying that it doesn't factor in then, but if you use it to power Piett, then it factors into his point cost. Also you are really hurting your firepower because you have only a dictor and a quasar instead of two victories.

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9 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

But you can't use them for anything except for Piett now? So they do factor into his cost because they are being used to make his ability work and nothing else? If you won't use Piett twice, then you could brunson twice. I could see you saying that it doesn't factor in then, but if you use it to power Piett, then it factors into his point cost. Also you are really hurting your firepower because you have only a dictor and a quasar instead of two victories.

Goodness, there is something to be said for flexibility. Perhaps you want those tokens for immediate use, perhaps you want the extra click on the Nav. Maybe you need an extra squadron activation, maybe you want the Slicer insurance in following rounds. Who can say beforehand? If I go the whole game without using Piett, I’m ok with that. Same with Screed, Motti, JJ, or any number of admirals. Having him in the back pocket is very handy. Perhaps the Dictor is light on the firepower, but I’ve found it sufficient in most matchups to soften the enemy for my squadrons.

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12 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

Goodness, there is something to be said for flexibility.

no. there is no flexibility in your list that mine does not have more of. A dial for every ship is better than relying on a token network. even if you can get your ships the tokens they need, you still have to activate in a certain order, or give opponents tokens or have some sort of handshake. 

 

12 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

Who can say beforehand? If I go the whole game without using Piett, I’m ok with that. Same with Screed, Motti, JJ, or any number of admirals

 Screed is used in builds where he needs crits. if he is lucky, he wont be used. Sure. but most times he is there to skip out on upgrades like OE or pull double crits for HIE/ACM kuats.  Motti gives you hull so you can play super aggressively, so no. Half the time you can use him to go nuts and never actually have to use his ability, but sometimes you do.  He is a dial replacement for engineering.  JJ is also like this. you have him because you intend on using his aggressive movement to set other command dials. I have never brought JJ and not used him at least twice. He is a dial replacement.

Piett is a worse Trawn or a better Tarkin. So I guess I am just negative and only looking at it as glass half empty. 

Nothing is wrong with the Dictor. I am fine with a dictor+ Victory, but you cannot bring a dictor and a Quasar and expect your squads to hold you through.

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