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ovinomanc3r

Multiple attacks

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First of all: I KNOW a mini cannot contribute to several pools during the same attack unless it has arsenal x keyword.

Actually I think it was pretty clear in previous versions of the RRG.

However that's what is bothering me right now.

I was reading the attack rules to be very sure when explaining it to others and I noticed a piece of rules that is missing (or at least I thought it was there before).

Now, following the attack are by step, the only requirement for a mini to be eligible is to have line of sight. And the requirement to form a new attack pool is only that there are weapons left. Also, while adding weapons to a pool each eligible mini (it is as long it has line of sight) may add one weapon to the pool. So after you form an attack pool, you check for any weapon left. If there is any you may choose a new target and form a new pool. To form it you check which minis have line of sight and the choose one weapon to add. No matters if that mini already added one to another pool.

That's the piece missing. It doesn't say one weapon per mini and attack, or to be eligible a mini cannot had added a weapon to another pool already neither.

I am pretty sure I read it there or at least somewhere else in the rules but I don't anymore. Nothing else in Attack Pool or Weapons.

I already deleted my previous versions of the rules so I can't check them.

I remember something in the lines of:

Eligible mini: to be eligible a mini must have line of sight and cannot have contributed to an attack pool already during this attack.

Or maybe it was something like:

If there are any mini that didn't contribute to an attack pool the player may repeat steps 1-2...

 

Could someone point me where is that missing rule in the RRG? Or where I could read something like that. Thanks in advance!

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

First of all: I KNOW a mini cannot contribute to several pools during the same attack unless it has arsenal x keyword.

Actually I think it was pretty clear in previous versions of the RRG.

However that's what is bothering me right now.

I was reading the attack rules to be very sure when explaining it to others and I noticed a piece of rules that is missing (or at least I thought it was there before).

Now, following the attack are by step, the only requirement for a mini to be eligible is to have line of sight. And the requirement to form a new attack pool is only that there are weapons left. Also, while adding weapons to a pool each eligible mini (it is as long it has line of sight) may add one weapon to the pool. So after you form an attack pool, you check for any weapon left. If there is any you may choose a new target and form a new pool. To form it you check which minis have line of sight and the choose one weapon to add. No matters if that mini already added one to another pool.

That's the piece missing. It doesn't say one weapon per mini and attack, or to be eligible a mini cannot had added a weapon to another pool already neither.

I am pretty sure I read it there or at least somewhere else in the rules but I don't anymore. Nothing else in Attack Pool or Weapons.

I already deleted my previous versions of the rules so I can't check them.

I remember something in the lines of:

Eligible mini: to be eligible a mini must have line of sight and cannot have contributed to an attack pool already during this attack.

Or maybe it was something like:

If there are any mini that didn't contribute to an attack pool the player may repeat steps 1-2...

 

Could someone point me where is that missing rule in the RRG? Or where I could read something like that. Thanks in advance!

 

I also deleted the previous versions of the RRG. The closest rule I could find is this one on page 62, the last dot from Weapons:

"While attacking, each mini in a unit that is equipped with a grenade or hardpoint upgrade may use that weapon instead of another weapon on their unit card or equipped upgrade card."

But that only refers to grenade and hardpoint so it wouldn't prevent a unit using two different weapons from it's own unit card or the weapon from the unit plus an Armament upgrade.

Maybe that rule of only one weapon is something we all inferred at first when there was no unit with 2 different ranged weapons on the unit card and the only ways to add another weapon was through grenade and hardpoint upgrades, so the rule I quoted covered it.

But with the rules as they are, each mini of a Pathfinders unit for example, equiped with it's weapon can attack 2 different units during the same attack with it's 2 different weapons (given the conditions). I couldn't find either something that doesn't allow that, just like you said.

Edited by Lemmiwinks86

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Posted (edited)

It's all on page 15 of RR, even the diagram describes it.   Since each mini can only use one weapon, they only can participate in one attack pool among however many the attacking unit they are in is able and willing to do.  In the diagram, it doesn't show the "rocket stormtrooper" shooting a E-11 along side the other 5 stormtroopers, then also shooting the HH-12 at the AT-RT within range.

When it comes to prior rule book, nothing as far as I know is removed, it's added to highlighted in blue for most recent additions.

Edited by Tokous

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tokous said:

It's all on page 15 of RR, even the diagram describes it.   Since each mini can only use one weapon, they only can participate in one attack pool among however many the attacking unit they are in is able and willing to do.  In the diagram, it doesn't show the "rocket stormtrooper" shooting a E-11 along side the other 5 stormtroopers, then also shooting the HH-12 at the AT-RT within range.

When it comes to prior rule book, nothing as far as I know is removed, it's added to highlighted in blue for most recent additions.

I'm aware of that diagram and all, but the thing is that we can't find anything in the rules restricting a mini to only use one weapon if there are more than one defender.

1. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.
2. Form Attack Pool: The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:
a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.
b. Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.
c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.
3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

Maybe the problem is my understanding of the english and somewhere there is a line that restricts a mini to only use one weapon, but as @ovinomanc3r said, the only explicit restriction to determine eligible minis is that they must have line of sight to the defender and that it must be at range of the weapon.

Edited by Lemmiwinks86

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Huh. That's weird.

My reading is the same, per the written rules it is completely legal for Stormtroopers target a unit at range 1 with 5 grenades, and then also target a unit with 5 E-11s, and then fire at a third target with the DLT-19. 

Arsenal X indicates that the "norm" situation is that a model can only add a single weapon, but I to can't find it stated outright anywhere.

Quote

When choosing weapons during the “Form Attack Pool” step of an attack, each mini in a unit that has the arsenal x keyword can choose a number of its weapons equal to the value of x. Each chosen weapon contributes its dice and keywords to the attack pool.

• To use a weapon during an attack, the defender must be at or within any of the weapon’s ranges.

• A mini that has the arsenal x keyword can divide its weapons between any number of units, forming a separate dice pool for each weapon or combination of weapons.

Probably time to contact FFG.

It's not dissimilar to the fact that right now per the rules Arsenal upgrades have no effect since it is not stated that they add a weapon, unlike Grenades and Hardpoints. 

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On 3/13/2019 at 2:25 PM, Caimheul1313 said:

Huh. That's weird.

My reading is the same, per the written rules it is completely legal for Stormtroopers target a unit at range 1 with 5 grenades, and then also target a unit with 5 E-11s, and then fire at a third target with the DLT-19. 

Arsenal X indicates that the "norm" situation is that a model can only add a single weapon, but I to can't find it stated outright anywhere.

Probably time to contact FFG.

It's not dissimilar to the fact that right now per the rules Arsenal upgrades have no effect since it is not stated that they add a weapon, unlike Grenades and Hardpoints. 

Uh. It’s right there.

each mini chooses one weapon. (2)

Weapons must all attack in the same pool.

During an attack, each weapon or group of weapons with a unique name in a unit may attack a different enemy unit if it is able. To do so, simply add the following step after Step 2 of an attack:
• Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1-2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.
And the following after Step 8:
• Choose Additional Attack Pool: Repeat steps 4-9, choosing a new attack pool.
For example, a unit of six Stormtroopers is equipped with a DLT- 19 Stormtrooper upgrade card. It attacks a unit of Rebel Troopers with five of its Stormtroopers, forming an attack pool with five E-11 Blaster Rifles.
However, their controlling player wishes to attack a different unit with its DLT-19 Stormtrooper. There is another eligible target, an AT-RT, within range of the unused DLT-19; the player chooses to make an additional attack using the DLT-19 against the AT-RT. The impact 1 keyword of the DLT-19 is applied only to the attack pool to which the weapon has been added.

 

Not sure how that’s being misread. 

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6 hours ago, Derrault said:

Uh. It’s right there.

 

Not sure how that’s being misread. 

Because it says to choose a weapon for each mini per attack pool, it does not specify that a mini cannot also then contribute a different weapon to a different attack pool. So in your example, according to the rules as written, the DLT Stormtrooper mini can contribute it's E-11 to the same attack pool as the other stormtroopers in the unit, then contribute it's DLT to a completely separate attack pool. There is nothing in the rules that explicitly states a mini may only use one weapon per attack action, or that a mini may only be in one attack pool.

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2. Form Attack Pool: The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:

a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

b. Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the (an) attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined  from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.

c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.

3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

 

 

So I believe the intent of the first bolded part is that you are selecting 1 weapon per mini, then adding as many of them as you like to an attack pool. Then in step 3, the bolded line is referring back to the other one letting you know that if you have any leftover weapons from the selected weapons, you can form a new pool.

I think if they updated the wording by changing the to an, it would correctly reflect the intent. It is hazy right now as worded. They could also just add a bullet point somewhere that outright says minis can only use 1 weapon per attack unless an ability says other wise.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Because it says to choose a weapon for each mini per attack pool, it does not specify that a mini cannot also then contribute a different weapon to a different attack pool. So in your example, according to the rules as written, the DLT Stormtrooper mini can contribute it's E-11 to the same attack pool as the other stormtroopers in the unit, then contribute it's DLT to a completely separate attack pool. There is nothing in the rules that explicitly states a mini may only use one weapon per attack action, or that a mini may only be in one attack pool.

That’s incomplete information based on the learn to play guide, the assumption is there is only one attack pool, and if and only if you want to split fire do you then repeat earlier steps to form a new pool with unused assigned weapons. 

Edit: to be sure, you must assign the weapons before any dice are rolled, or targets chosen. Each mini gets one weapon, each group of weapons only gets one (valid) target.

Edited by Derrault

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

That’s incomplete information based on the learn to play guide, the assumption is there is only one attack pool, and if and only if you want to split fire do you then repeat earlier steps to form a new pool with unused assigned weapons. 

Edit: to be sure, you must assign the weapons before any dice are rolled, or targets chosen. Each mini gets one weapon, each group of weapons only gets one (valid) target.

No, I am citing the actual RRG, not the learn to play. The learn to play doesn't even touch on multiple attack pools. 

Please cite where in the rules it says each mini only gets one weapon. As has been pointed out above, that restriction is not explicitly stated anywhere.

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6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

No, I am citing the actual RRG, not the learn to play. The learn to play doesn't even touch on multiple attack pools. 

Please cite where in the rules it says each mini only gets one weapon. As has been pointed out above, that restriction is not explicitly stated anywhere.

Actually it does, page 19 of 32:

ATTACKING MULTIPLE UNITS
During an attack, each weapon or group of weapons with a unique name in a unit may attack a different enemy unit if it is able. To do so, simply add the following step after Step 2 of an attack:
• Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1-2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.
And the following after Step 8:
• Choose Additional Attack Pool: Repeat steps 4-9, choosing a new attack pool.
For example, a unit of six Stormtroopers is equipped with a DLT- 19 Stormtrooper upgrade card. It attacks a unit of Rebel Troopers with five of its Stormtroopers, forming an attack pool with five E-11 Blaster Rifles.
However, their controlling player wishes to attack a different unit with its DLT-19 Stormtrooper. There is another eligible target, an AT-RT, within range of the unused DLT-19; the player chooses to make an additional attack using the DLT-19 against the AT-RT. The impact 1 keyword of the DLT-19 is applied only to the attack pool to which the weapon has been added.

 

 

And the rule on attacks is listed on the same page at the top, step 2:

 

Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of
the defender.

 

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To be absolutely clear, this is a discussion about rules as written(RAW), not rules as intended (RAI). I doubt anyone is actually playing strictly RAW in this case. 

11 hours ago, Derrault said:

Actually it does, page 19 of 32:

ATTACKING MULTIPLE UNITS
During an attack, each weapon or group of weapons with a unique name in a unit may attack a different enemy unit if it is able. To do so, simply add the following step after Step 2 of an attack:
• Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1-2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.
And the following after Step 8:
• Choose Additional Attack Pool: Repeat steps 4-9, choosing a new attack pool.
For example, a unit of six Stormtroopers is equipped with a DLT- 19 Stormtrooper upgrade card. It attacks a unit of Rebel Troopers with five of its Stormtroopers, forming an attack pool with five E-11 Blaster Rifles.
However, their controlling player wishes to attack a different unit with its DLT-19 Stormtrooper. There is another eligible target, an AT-RT, within range of the unused DLT-19; the player chooses to make an additional attack using the DLT-19 against the AT-RT. The impact 1 keyword of the DLT-19 is applied only to the attack pool to which the weapon has been added.

 

Note that this is talking about weapons, not miniatures. The example certainly indicates how we have been playing (that a miniature without Arsenal X may only use one weapon per attack), but does not state it. The example on page 19 does not state WHY only 5 E-11s are chosen, only that they are. Again, we are looking for something that explicitly excludes the DLT miniature from contributing an E-11 to the attack pool targeting the rebel troopers in addition to targeting the AT-RT with it's DLT, and why

Quote

Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of
the defender.

The only thing that makes a mini eligible is the ability to draw line of sight to the target. The mini is not ineligible because it has contributed a different weapon to a different attack pool.

 

Walking through step by step of an attack using only RAW, NOT RAI:

The playing field for our purposes is a flat table with no terrain. In the middle of the table is a 6 man stormtrooper squad with a DLT upgrade, Range 3 to their left is a Rebel Troopers squad, Range 4 to their right is an AT-RT. 

The stormtroopers are activated and their first action is an attack action.

Now we go through step by step per the RAW:

1. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

The Empire player chooses the Rebel Troopers as the defender.

2. Form Attack Pool:The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:

     a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

All minis in the Stormtrooper squad can draw line of sight to the Rebel Trooper unit, so all are eligible. 

     b. Choose Weapons:The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.

The attacker chooses the E-11 from all 6 of the eligible miniatures, since the Rebel trooper unit is in range 1-3 and all keyword requirements are met. 

     c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.

Dice are gathered and placed next to the Rebel troopers

     3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

      » An attack pool can consist of dice from different weapons, but all weapons with an identical name must contribute their dice to the same attack pool. » The dice in each attack pool should be placed near the corresponding defender.

The DLT WEAPON is still remaining and has not been added to the attack pool, so we now repeat steps 1-2, forming a new attack pool:

1. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

The Empire player chooses the AT-RT as the defender this time.

2. Form Attack Pool:The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:

     a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

All minis in the Stormtrooper squad can draw line of sight to the AT-RT unit, so all are eligible. 

     b. Choose Weapons:The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.

The attacker is unable to select a weapon from the non-heavy weapon Stormtrooper miniatures as A) there is already an attack pool containing the E-11 weapon, so all E-11s from this unit cannot be in any other attack pool, and B) the AT-RT is outside of the range of the E-11 anyway.

However, the DLT Stormtrooper PER RULES AS WRITTEN is both eligible and has a weapon that can be contributed to the attack pool. 

     c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.

Dice are gathered and placed next to the AT-RT.

We now resolve the attack pools one at a time, but for this discussion those steps are irrelevant. 

Notably, a unit can AT MOST form two attack pools, since step three is not repeated. 

This is what  @ovinomanc3r, @Lemmiwinks86, @nashjaee and myself are saying about an unintended loophole. It's clear from the example and the wording of Arsenal that this is not the INTENDED application of the rules, but this is an exact application of the attack rules as they are written.

 

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On 3/18/2019 at 10:36 AM, Caimheul1313 said:

To be absolutely clear, this is a discussion about rules as written(RAW), not rules as intended (RAI). I doubt anyone is actually playing strictly RAW in this case. 

Note that this is talking about weapons, not miniatures. The example certainly indicates how we have been playing (that a miniature without Arsenal X may only use one weapon per attack), but does not state it. The example on page 19 does not state WHY only 5 E-11s are chosen, only that they are. Again, we are looking for something that explicitly excludes the DLT miniature from contributing an E-11 to the attack pool targeting the rebel troopers in addition to targeting the AT-RT with it's DLT, and why

The only thing that makes a mini eligible is the ability to draw line of sight to the target. The mini is not ineligible because it has contributed a different weapon to a different attack pool.

 

Walking through step by step of an attack using only RAW, NOT RAI:

The playing field for our purposes is a flat table with no terrain. In the middle of the table is a 6 man stormtrooper squad with a DLT upgrade, Range 3 to their left is a Rebel Troopers squad, Range 4 to their right is an AT-RT. 

The stormtroopers are activated and their first action is an attack action.

Now we go through step by step per the RAW:

1. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

The Empire player chooses the Rebel Troopers as the defender.

2. Form Attack Pool:The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:

     a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

All minis in the Stormtrooper squad can draw line of sight to the Rebel Trooper unit, so all are eligible. 

     b. Choose Weapons:The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.

The attacker chooses the E-11 from all 6 of the eligible miniatures, since the Rebel trooper unit is in range 1-3 and all keyword requirements are met. 

     c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.

Dice are gathered and placed next to the Rebel troopers

     3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

      » An attack pool can consist of dice from different weapons, but all weapons with an identical name must contribute their dice to the same attack pool. » The dice in each attack pool should be placed near the corresponding defender.

The DLT WEAPON is still remaining and has not been added to the attack pool, so we now repeat steps 1-2, forming a new attack pool:

1. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

The Empire player chooses the AT-RT as the defender this time.

2. Form Attack Pool:The attack pool consists of all the dice the attacker will roll against this defender. When forming the attack pool, players follow these substeps in order:

     a. Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

All minis in the Stormtrooper squad can draw line of sight to the AT-RT unit, so all are eligible. 

     b. Choose Weapons:The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.

The attacker is unable to select a weapon from the non-heavy weapon Stormtrooper miniatures as A) there is already an attack pool containing the E-11 weapon, so all E-11s from this unit cannot be in any other attack pool, and B) the AT-RT is outside of the range of the E-11 anyway.

However, the DLT Stormtrooper PER RULES AS WRITTEN is both eligible and has a weapon that can be contributed to the attack pool. 

     c. Gather Dice: For each eligible mini that chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon and places them on the battlefield near the defender.

Dice are gathered and placed next to the AT-RT.

We now resolve the attack pools one at a time, but for this discussion those steps are irrelevant. 

Notably, a unit can AT MOST form two attack pools, since step three is not repeated. 

This is what  @ovinomanc3r, @Lemmiwinks86, @nashjaee and myself are saying about an unintended loophole. It's clear from the example and the wording of Arsenal that this is not the INTENDED application of the rules, but this is an exact application of the attack rules as they are written.

 

 3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

That has no cap on it. If there are enough weapons/minis to wield them, then infinite pools are hypothetically possible. 

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

 3. Declare Additional Defender: If there are any weapons remaining that have not been added to the attack pool, the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons.

That has no cap on it. If there are enough weapons/minis to wield them, then infinite pools are hypothetically possible. 

No, it specifically says "a separate attack pool" singular containing the weapons. Not separate attack pools.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

No, it specifically says "a separate attack pool" singular containing the weapons. Not separate attack pools.

If there are any weapons that have not been added to the [current] pool.

I mean, It’s clearly written from the perspective of the first readthrough, and when one expects to only have a single pool.

Obviously. 🙄

Edited by Derrault

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

If there are any weapons that have not been added to the [current] pool.

I mean, It’s clearly written from the perspective of the first readthrough, and when one expects to only have a single pool.

Obviously. 🙄

If that were the case then it should read "Repeat steps 1-2 as needed forming attack pools with the new weapons." As it is "the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons" that means that the player may form a SINGLE attack pool that contains the new weapons. 

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I strongly believe each mini may only use one weapon and in only one attack pool per round unless otherwise stated in a card effect; still not finding the validity of a miniature in a unit may use multiple weapons, where does it say that!??? Instead of where does it not say, how about where does it say you can do that...Last time I checked things that are said apply far beyond what is not said. 

The rule criminals may attempt as they do to bend rules, however not only is it ridiculous but terribly overpowering if it was like how they are implying it is other than that. If say Stormtroopers with upgrades- heavy weapon, personnel, and grenade; would give that one unit 3 attack pools with all units allowed (6x E-11, 6x Grendade, 1x Heavy Weapon); then I'd never ever not use x6 Corps with all those upgrades lol.  

Since when does it literally have to include every possible word and clarification in order for it to apply!? The RR isn't going to literally list every single possible outcome that could happen for every single aspect of this game, it would end up with hundreds of pages. The driving books for literally anywhere on Earth do not need to put "do not drive while wearing iron boots, for the accelerator might be hard to remove which may lead to accidents" That just is common sense, and like all games, this game too needs common sense not a lengthy fully covered in all ways rule book that ends up being the rule scroll cause it is sooooooo long no one is playing it since they are still reading the rules. lol. come on ppl.

I personally sent a email to customer support with this matter, no reply yet but better believe I will report the answer.

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@Tokous as I detailed above in the step by step process, since there is nothing in the rules stating a miniature may only use one weapon per attack, a strict application of the Attack steps leads to a situation where a miniature with multiple weapons can attack a second target so long as is not using a weapon already in the previously declared attack pool without having Arsenal X. I think this is an oversight. I have also contacted the rules email, and am awaiting a response.

Modifying your example so it is not absurd, as I do not believe such footwear exists, people do drive while wearing high heels, steel toed boots, or other shoes that make operating a vehicle less safe. If there is no law preventing it, and they are not taught about the increased risk, then they will continue to do so. I seem to recall seeing lines in my high school driving manual concerning footwear choice being a possible hazard, so that is already broadly covered.

Without rules, we have no way of knowing how to perform an attack. If the rules for attack are ill formed and lack the restriction of "one weapon per model" then someone reading the rules could (most likely erroneously) come to the conclusion that there is no such restriction and their opponent has no resource to say they are wrong (Outside of tournaments at least, in tournaments of course the TO's ruling is "law").

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I in no way am saying the rules are perfect or complete, and I definitely love and encourage challenging information and expanding new ideas/outlooks yet there is a fine line between that and making things up literally because it doesn't say it can't be done. It is common sense, explained in text & diagrams, and implied how to play the game. While yes, it doesn't pin point say you can or can't do many things, yet what it does say is the law. What it doesn't say can't be taken that serious, but may be addressed as we both have and others sending an email.   When it comes to in or out of tournaments, the game creators ruling is the real law. The TO is the 2nd in command so to speak hoping to know everything the creator does as a substitute.

Personally, I stick to what I said... only one miniature may only use one weapon per its only one attack pool. Hey, I guess there is that chance I might be wrong but I doubt it entirely. The evidence is in the RR.  Ultimately its up to the creators.  I'm glad some of you actually are thinking and thoroughly reading the rules, please keep doing so but please stop trying to push made up things though. That discredits and undermines all of you guys credibility, as you strongly support nonsense while respected as knowing what you are talking about rules wise. We'll all know what it is soon enough I guess, looking forward to it for information sake.

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If you guys really want to know about multiple attacks lol, then there is arsenal keyword, and if you use Son of Skywalker... Luke can make an extra attack. There you have it for the most part.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Tokous said:

If you guys really want to know about multiple attacks lol, then there is arsenal keyword, and if you use Son of Skywalker... Luke can make an extra attack. There you have it for the most part.

Where in the rules does it state a miniature can only use one weapon? This isn't a corner case rule, this isn't some obscure situation, this is a very basic rule for attacking that should be easily pointed to, with keywords changing the base case.

Luke is making two separate Attacks, that is different than contributing a weapon to two different attack pools as part of the same Attack.

Arsenal allows you to add more than one weapon from the miniature to the same attack pool, and does imply  that a mini may only fire one weapon, but RAI and RAW can be very different, as we saw with range measurements changing from true distance between miniatures to the way we measure now, parallel to the table.

The main problem with the way attack is written is Step 3, since you check for "weapons" remaining from the unit, not "miniatures," not "previously selected weapons." 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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4 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Where in the rules does it state a miniature can only use one weapon? This isn't a corner case rule, this isn't some obscure situation, this is a very basic rule for attacking that should be easily pointed to, with keywords changing the base case.

Luke is making two separate Attacks, that is different than contributing a weapon to two different attack pools as part of the same Attack.

Arsenal allows you to add more than one weapon from the miniature to the same attack pool, and does imply  that a mini may only fire one weapon, but RAI and RAW can be very different, as we saw with range measurements changing from true distance between miniatures to the way we measure now, parallel to the table.

The main problem with the way attack is written is Step 3, since you check for "weapons" remaining from the unit, not "miniatures," not "previously selected weapons." 

so while looking over all off this it the entire point of this conversation is steam from the choose what weapons are remaining, well go check the weapons section it does state in there that when choosing a weapon such as a grenade a miniature can choose one or the other not both.  While attacking, each mini in a unit that is equipped with a grenade or hardpoint upgrade may use that weapon instead of another weapon on their unit card or equipped upgrade card. also heavy weapons team can While attacking, only the specific mini sculpted with this weapon can use it, though it may choose to use one of the unit’s other weapons instead.
yes in the section about choosing weapon it doesn't refer to miniatures but it tells you the information it pulls from to refer to at the end of the attack section.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so while looking over all off this it the entire point of this conversation is steam from the choose what weapons are remaining, well go check the weapons section it does state in there that when choosing a weapon such as a grenade a miniature can choose one or the other not both.  While attacking, each mini in a unit that is equipped with a grenade or hardpoint upgrade may use that weapon instead of another weapon on their unit card or equipped upgrade card. also heavy weapons team can While attacking, only the specific mini sculpted with this weapon can use it, though it may choose to use one of the unit’s other weapons instead.
yes in the section about choosing weapon it doesn't refer to miniatures but it tells you the information it pulls from to refer to at the end of the attack section.

I do agree it says "instead," so this does hint even stronger at RAI being one weapon, but this still doesn't explicitly limit to one weapon per attack. When I build the first attack pool I pick the E-11 instead of the DLT, when I build the second attack pool I pick the DLT instead of the E-11. It looks like all the pieces are there, just the specific line was missed in publishing. 

Again, I'm of the opinion that anyone actually trying to use this argument to put weapons in different attack pools without having Arsenal in a game is being a mite silly, and I should be more surprised than I am at this small omission, but then I remember that per the RRG  as it is currently written, Armament upgrades have no in game effects, as only Grenades and Hardpoints add additional weapons to the unit. 

It still leaves unresolved the issue of whether a unit is supposed to be limited to at most two attack pools, or if that was not intended.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2019 at 9:53 PM, Caimheul1313 said:

If that were the case then it should read "Repeat steps 1-2 as needed forming attack pools with the new weapons." As it is "the player may repeat steps 1–2, forming a separate attack pool with the new weapons" that means that the player may form a SINGLE attack pool that contains the new weapons. 

Except for the caveat about being able to form a separate pool if there are any weapons unassigned. 

Which is also consistent with the rules there being written as if talking about the pool being established. 

Edited by Derrault

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