Jump to content
Rithuan

Jedi Order, 6000 years old?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Were they in America?  They have crossed the pond before.  If not, then yeah that would be kind of odd.

Nope. Sheffield. Which is why it struck me as odd.

Edited by Nytwyng

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Huh, yeah that's very baffling.  They usually stick to British/UK terminology very regularly.  *shrugs*

Perhaps they anticipated that in the aftermath of leaving the EU, the UK would turn back to their old imperial measurement.😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Perhaps they anticipated that in the aftermath of leaving the EU, the UK would turn back to their old imperial measurement.😀

Why so we have to learn three measurement systems to trade with them, everything in the world that is sold as a measure of volume is SI, most machine tools are SI, etc.  Americans use their own version of the old English Imperial, not the UK variety.  God forbid scientific measurements will ever use the goofy fractions of Imperial.

Edited by Eoen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, CaptainRaspberry said:

That was my point, yeah.

Maybe, but it wasn't what you said. What you said was that both Ahch-to and Ossus actually were each the location of the first Jedi Temple (based upon continuity). That's not the same thing as scholars believing that each of these planets might have been the location of the first Jedi temple. That's why I pointed out what I did. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/13/2019 at 2:14 PM, Underachiever599 said:

The source comes from the Art of the Last Jedi book, not the visual dictionary. 

Really? Because the statement on Wookieepedia:

On 3/13/2019 at 7:07 AM, salamar_dree said:

 

These are the first two sentences from the wiki that the OP linked:

The Prime Jedi was the first member of the Jedi Order. They founded the Order[1] around six thousand years before the Battle of Yavin[2] on the planet Ahch-To. 

Has the source of that statement of six thousand years (the [2]) as being the novel Tarkin. Which is odd, because that novel came out before any of the new movies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Maybe, but it wasn't what you said. What you said was that both Ahch-to and Ossus actually were each the location of the first Jedi Temple (based upon continuity). That's not the same thing as scholars believing that each of these planets might have been the location of the first Jedi temple. That's why I pointed out what I did. 

No, what I said was that both Ahch-To and Ossus could be interpreted as the location of the first Jedi temple, under the reasoning that the term "Jedi" might have referred to discrete orders throughout history.

So, Ahch-To might be the site of the first temple used by the Jedi Order that began 6,000 years ago, while Ossus (or Tython or Jedha or wherever, take your pick) might be the site of the first temple used by the Jedi Order that existed prior to that.

Since we're talking about different Jedi Orders that existed separately, whether or not they resembled each other, both Ahch-To and Ossus can be said to be the site of the first Jedi temple. The question is only: the first of which order?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CaptainRaspberry said:

No, what I said was that both Ahch-To and Ossus could be interpreted as the location of the first Jedi temple, under the reasoning that the term "Jedi" might have referred to discrete orders throughout history.

So, Ahch-To might be the site of the first temple used by the Jedi Order that began 6,000 years ago, while Ossus (or Tython or Jedha or wherever, take your pick) might be the site of the first temple used by the Jedi Order that existed prior to that.

Since we're talking about different Jedi Orders that existed separately, whether or not they resembled each other, both Ahch-To and Ossus can be said to be the site of the first Jedi temple. The question is only: the first of which order?

It may have been what you meant, but that's not what you said. To quote: 

On 3/18/2019 at 3:10 PM, CaptainRaspberry said:

To copy @penpenpen: "Ahch-To was the first Jedi temple. Ossus was the first Jedi temple. Both of these statements are true."

Both of those statements are not true. Ossus was never the first Jedi Temple in Canon nor Legends. In canon, Ossus was one of several planets believed by scholars to be a potential location of the first Jedi Temple, but it was not  the location of the first Jedi temple, and in Legends, it never was considered the location of the first Jedi temple.  That is the difference. Ergo, your original statement is flawed, regardless of what you intended. Ahch-to absolutely was, canonically, the location of the First Jedi Temple. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It may have been what you meant, but that's not what you said. To quote: 

Both of those statements are not true. Ossus was never the first Jedi Temple in Canon nor Legends. In canon, Ossus was one of several planets believed by scholars to be a potential location of the first Jedi Temple, but it was not  the location of the first Jedi temple, and in Legends, it never was considered the location of the first Jedi temple.  That is the difference. Ergo, your original statement is flawed, regardless of what you intended. Ahch-to absolutely was, canonically, the location of the First Jedi Temple. 

The point that you keep on missing is that "first" might be relative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

The point that you keep on missing is that "first" might be relative.

No, I didn't miss that point. That point, canonically, is false to begin with. Canon establishes Ahch-to as The first Jedi Temple. Not the first for the "current order, the very first Jedi temple ever.  This is compounded by the fact that even in Legends, Ossus didn't house a huge library until after the Great Hyperspace War in 5,000 BBY. That's 1,000 years after what Canon says was the presumed  "birth" of the order. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6,000 years? That's. . . actually a lot longer than the Jedi Order in Legends.

The Jedi Order as it came to be known in the Prequels only existed since about 1,000 BBY, since the Ruusan Reformation that was also the birth of the Republic as it came to be known in the Prequels. Both had existed previously in different forms, as seen in Star Wars: The Old Republic, and that Order and Republic were based on older versions who had their twilight in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, taking place around 4,000 BBY. I don't recall off the top of my head how long that Order and Republic had stood before, so we might be getting into a Jedi Order that had been around before new Canon says, but even so, by Legends standards, Yoda had been around basically since the founding of his version of the Jedi.

Are we certain 6,000 years is "too short?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ErikModi said:

6,000 years? That's. . . actually a lot longer than the Jedi Order in Legends.

The Jedi Order as it came to be known in the Prequels only existed since about 1,000 BBY, since the Ruusan Reformation that was also the birth of the Republic as it came to be known in the Prequels. Both had existed previously in different forms, as seen in Star Wars: The Old Republic, and that Order and Republic were based on older versions who had their twilight in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, taking place around 4,000 BBY. I don't recall off the top of my head how long that Order and Republic had stood before, so we might be getting into a Jedi Order that had been around before new Canon says, but even so, by Legends standards, Yoda had been around basically since the founding of his version of the Jedi.

Are we certain 6,000 years is "too short?"

In Legends, the Jedi Order of the Prequels was the same order as existed back during the Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War before that, The only thing that changed was a more rigid doctrine and centralized control by the Jedi Council. The Order didn't  collapse and have to be completely rebuilt from scratch, like after the fall of the Empire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, it did get functionally wiped out around Knights of the Old Republic II, though it rebuilt in short order. And the Ruusan Reformation was a major enough reorganization that it functionally considered itself a "new" Jedi Order. So Obi-Wan's "a thousand generations" speech refers to multiple iterations, reorganizations, and rebuilding of something recognizable as a Jedi Order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

Actually, it did get functionally wiped out around Knights of the Old Republic II, though it rebuilt in short order. And the Ruusan Reformation was a major enough reorganization that it functionally considered itself a "new" Jedi Order. So Obi-Wan's "a thousand generations" speech refers to multiple iterations, reorganizations, and rebuilding of something recognizable as a Jedi Order.

While Partially correct about the former, you're not correct about the latter. After Ruusan, the Jedi Order was not completely reorganized, or restructured, as  the Republic was. The only thing that changed was it became more centralized with the Jedi Council taking a more direct control of the Order's affairs. That's it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

While Partially correct about the former, you're not correct about the latter. After Ruusan, the Jedi Order was not completely reorganized, or restructured, as  the Republic was. The only thing that changed was it became more centralized with the Jedi Council taking a more direct control of the Order's affairs. That's it. 

I call BS. The order was essentially decimated to the exile's merry group, Bastila and a living tree. I don't care what you say. No organisation survives that without organisational upheaval. It had to have been restructured and reorganized as there was not enough people left to make up any structure or organisation.

The order was rebuilt by Meetra Surik's apprentices, none of which were formally trained as Jedi before meeting Surik, and only one, Mical, had any deeper knowledge into the Jedi order, and he was quite critical about certain aspects of it.

Any way you cut it, the Jedi order was functionally wiped out and had to be rebuilt from the ground up by novices. That definitely makes it a new order in everything but name.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I call BS. The order was essentially decimated to the exile's merry group, Bastila and a living tree. I don't care what you say. No organisation survives that without organisational upheaval. It had to have been restructured and reorganized as there was not enough people left to make up any structure or organisation.

The order was rebuilt by Meetra Surik's apprentices, none of which were formally trained as Jedi before meeting Surik, and only one, Mical, had any deeper knowledge into the Jedi order, and he was quite critical about certain aspects of it.

Any way you cut it, the Jedi order was functionally wiped out and had to be rebuilt from the ground up by novices. That definitely makes it a new order in everything but name.

 

The Jedi Order after the battle of Ruusan was the same Jedi Order as before the Battle of Ruusan. Yes, after the incident with the Sith Triumvirate, the Order needed serious rebuilding, but the Order itself didn't cease to exist and have to start over from scratch. Nor was it wittled down to only Meetra Surik, her party, Bastilla and one Neti.  There was also the Lost Jedi, some of which were eventually killed, but not all of them. It should also be noted that the Jedi order during that time wasn't that heavily structured nor centrally controlled to begin with. It was a much looser organization, with individual Knights and masters having almost complete autonomy, particularly in how they handled teaching their apprentices, and who they chose as apprentices. As such, it wasn't that hard to rebuild. After Ruusan, the Jedi Order did become much more formalized and centralized, but it wasn't a completely new Jedi Order from what came before. So, no, the Jedi Order following the Battle of Ruusan was not a new Jedi Order than before the Battle of Ruusan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Jedi Order after the battle of Ruusan was the same Jedi Order as before the Battle of Ruusan. Yes, after the incident with the Sith Triumvirate, the Order needed serious rebuilding, but the Order itself didn't cease to exist and have to start over from scratch. Nor was it wittled down to only Meetra Surik, her party, Bastilla and one Neti.  There was also the Lost Jedi, some of which were eventually killed, but not all of them. It should also be noted that the Jedi order during that time wasn't that heavily structured nor centrally controlled to begin with. It was a much looser organization, with individual Knights and masters having almost complete autonomy, particularly in how they handled teaching their apprentices, and who they chose as apprentices. As such, it wasn't that hard to rebuild. After Ruusan, the Jedi Order did become much more formalized and centralized, but it wasn't a completely new Jedi Order from what came before. So, no, the Jedi Order following the Battle of Ruusan was not a new Jedi Order than before the Battle of Ruusan. 

Ruusan was 3000 years later. After the Jedi Civil War the order was down to one hundred known members, of which nearly all were killed at the conclave of Katarr. The few surviving council members were then killed by the Sith. Of the known Lost Jedi, about half were Surik and her apprentices and the rest were killed with a handful of exceptions.

The confirmed survivors of the Jedi purge are, as I said:

53 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

The order was essentially decimated to the exile's merry group, Bastila and a living tree. 

(please note the word essentially is not the same as exactly)

Wookieepedia lists 16 known survivors, which is fairly harsh. Of these there are five that definitely did not help rebuild the order; Celeste Morne (possessed, evil and in stasis), Atris (exiled), Halbret (in stasis/timetravelling), Revan (in exile) and Roni von Wasaki (frozen in carbonite). That leaves eleven others, 7 of which are Surik and her posse. Out the remaining we have Bastila and Ood Bnar, which I mentioned, That leaves two, Deesra Luur Jada and whoever carried on the Sunrider name (as Vima was quite a prominent Jedi master she's quite likely to have been present at the conclave, and thus quite unlikely to have survived). I think these two people would fit within the margin of error implied by "essentially".

There might be a handful of other survivors, but since "nearly all" of the hundred remaining Jedi are said to have been killed I think a generous estimate would be about ten people, and quite likely to be anyone of much note, as the Jedi Order had to rely on Surik's apprentices to rebuild it.

This means that only confirmed surviving Jedi master would be said talking tree and for all he is mentioned in influencing the order he might very well have been taking a very long nap during all the excitement, which would explain why the order seems to have been rebuilt, or, if you like, re-founded, by Bastila and the Exilettes. It's worth noting that at this point, Bastila, the most experienced of them, had been a knight for all of five years.

Of course, nothing is certain but everything points to the order being rebuilt by the n00bs because all of the leadership and upper echelons were wiped out. After all, when Atris was exiled, Mical was considered enough of a big shot to sit on the council.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

Ruusan was 3000 years later. After the Jedi Civil War the order was down to one hundred known members, of which nearly all were killed at the conclave of Katarr. The few surviving council members were then killed by the Sith. Of the known Lost Jedi, about half were Surik and her apprentices and the rest were killed with a handful of exceptions.

Exactly my original point. As I said, his assertion of the Jedi Order being rebuilt following the Sith Triumvirate is partially correct. His assertion that the Jedi Order was completely rebuilt into a completely different Jedi order after the battle of Ruusan is not. 

Quote

The confirmed survivors of the Jedi purge are, as I said:

(please note the word essentially is not the same as exactly)

Wookieepedia lists 16 known survivors, which is fairly harsh. Of these there are five that definitely did not help rebuild the order; Celeste Morne (possessed, evil and in stasis), Atris (exiled), Halbret (in stasis/timetravelling), Revan (in exile) and Roni von Wasaki (frozen in carbonite). That leaves eleven others, 7 of which are Surik and her posse. Out the remaining we have Bastila and Ood Bnar, which I mentioned, That leaves two, Deesra Luur Jada and whoever carried on the Sunrider name (as Vima was quite a prominent Jedi master she's quite likely to have been present at the conclave, and thus quite unlikely to have survived). I think these two people would fit within the margin of error implied by "essentially".

There might be a handful of other survivors, but since "nearly all" of the hundred remaining Jedi are said to have been killed I think a generous estimate would be about ten people, and quite likely to be anyone of much note, as the Jedi Order had to rely on Surik's apprentices to rebuild it.

This means that only confirmed surviving Jedi master would be said talking tree and for all he is mentioned in influencing the order he might very well have been taking a very long nap during all the excitement, which would explain why the order seems to have been rebuilt, or, if you like, re-founded, by Bastila and the Exilettes. It's worth noting that at this point, Bastila, the most experienced of them, had been a knight for all of five years.

Of course, nothing is certain but everything points to the order being rebuilt by the n00bs because all of the leadership and upper echelons were wiped out. After all, when Atris was exiled, Mical was considered enough of a big shot to sit on the council.

Yes, Precisely. On this we agree. As for Vima, given that she has descendants living all the way through to the events of the Dark Empire trilogy, I'm more apt to say she survived as well. We don't know when she eventually died, but she had at least one child before that, and was the progenitor of a very long line of powerful female Jedi. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/21/2019 at 10:53 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

While Partially correct about the former, you're not correct about the latter. After Ruusan, the Jedi Order was not completely reorganized, or restructured, as  the Republic was. The only thing that changed was it became more centralized with the Jedi Council taking a more direct control of the Order's affairs. That's it. 

I would call moving from an extremely loose group of people who really just have basic affiliation with each other into a centralized organization to be a complete rebuild and refounding.

Otherwise, putting an exact date on the founding of anything would be basically impossible. Just take real world countries and kingdoms, particularly going back to the medieval era.

Lets take France. When did France first exist?

The Republic was formed on September 22, 1792AD. Technically a completely different entity to the Monarchy that came before it, which had existed in some form or another since the Treaty of Verdun in 843AD. But then you have Clovis I who was the first King of the Franks during the late 400s and early 500s. All of these groups would rightfully be called France or French by people using the term today.

Likewise, Jedi Knights just means "force sensitives who follow the ways of the Jedi". It does not refer to a specific geopolitical entity like the Jedi Order.

Heck, Jedi Knight is such a broad term that it technically includes Sith too. During the KOTOR games the protagonists are more commonly referred to as Dark Jedi. Clearly the term is not specific to organized Jedi Orders, much less a specific Jedi Order.

Edited by BadMotivator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

I would call moving from an extremely loose group of people who really just have basic affiliation with each other into a centralized organization to be a complete rebuild and refounding.

Otherwise, putting an exact date on the founding of anything would be basically impossible. Just take real world countries and kingdoms, particularly going back to the medieval era.

Lets take France. When did France first exist?

The Republic was formed on September 22, 1792AD. Technically a completely different entity to the Monarchy that came before it, which had existed in some form or another since the Treaty of Verdun in 843AD. But then you have Clovis I who was the first King of the Franks during the late 400s and early 500s. All of these groups would rightfully be called France or French by people using the term today.

Likewise, Jedi Knights just means "force sensitives who follow the ways of the Jedi". It does not refer to a specific geopolitical entity like the Jedi Order.

Heck, Jedi Knight is such a broad term that it technically includes Sith too. During the KOTOR games the protagonists are more commonly referred to as Dark Jedi. Clearly the term is not specific to organized Jedi Orders, much less a specific Jedi Order.

In your example of France. France existed as a nation once Clovis I united it as one. The governments may have changed over time, but the country and culture remained. So, no, you did not have multiple "Frances" over the centuries. The same is true with the Jedi Order. It is one continuous order, not a series of separate and distinct orders. It was not "re-founded" after Ruusan, the way the Republic was. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In your example of France. France existed as a nation once Clovis I united it as one. The governments may have changed over time, but the country and culture remained. So, no, you did not have multiple "Frances" over the centuries. The same is true with the Jedi Order. It is one continuous order, not a series of separate and distinct orders. It was not "re-founded" after Ruusan, the way the Republic was. 

The cultures and langues of France has changed a lot over the centuries since Clovis founding. It has also split up several times into various smaller kingdoms. Like the three Frances they had after Charlemagne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...