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Pooleman

Legion outpacing X-Wing

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58 minutes ago, DewbackScout said:

Doubtful. Legion doesn't have Dewbacks yet. Once it does, it will take the lead, since X-wing will never have Dewbacks.

Won't you look silly when the Dewback pilot is released and runs rampant over the meta...

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6 minutes ago, Jedhead said:

Won't you look silly when the Dewback pilot is released and runs rampant over the meta...

Well, if it's a Dewback pilot, of course it will run rampant over the meta.

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13 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The detail (like the rest of the line) is getting stale too. They just keep re-sculpting the same stuff, using auto-CAD to cram more of the same things on. If chaos, they may as well slap a virtual banner on it saying "NOW! With 30% MORE spikes and chains!" or if not chaos, "30% MORE scrolls and candles!".

I have to disagree here. If GW is top seller right now is not for 40k gameplay quality (which is just horrible) but for the quality of the miniatures. I play Legion, W40K, Fantasy, Necromunda, X-Wing, Adeptus Titanicus... and both Legion and X-Wing are the best in gameplay experience followed closely by Titanicus. The rest of GW are not even close.

In the lore section, Legion and X-Wing are in the STAR WARS universe for crying out loud. They have the fanbase already established and it is a fanbase already used to buy merchandise and miniatures by the tons.

The entering barrier again favours X-Wing and Legion Vs W40K (60€/200€ vs 300€/400€ around here). And the knoledge barrier is even greater. You can learn to play X-Wing or Legion in 30 minutes vs weeks/several hours for Fantasy/W40k.

But in the miniature department is just the other way around. GW wipes the floor with FFG miniatures. They are surrealistically detailed and maybe you do not like so much details but for most people they are a treasure to paint.

About the prices: First of all, I live in Spain so I do not know about your situation but I pay a bit more in GW products for much more quality. I am more than willing to pay 46€ for something like Drycha or 20€ for a unit of 5 Reavers (4€ per miniature). https://www.games-workshop.com/es-ES/Etb-Khorne-Bloodbound-Garreks-Reavers-2018 These guys are awesome and cheap. Even heroes in Legion cannot stand in comparison with them. In the other hand, I can purchase a expansion box for star wars for 25€ (3´ 5 € per miniature) and get 7 stormtroopers which are just fine.

I can buy GW heroes for 20€ or FFG heroes for 15€, I can buy an ATST for 50€ or Drycha for 45€ and I suppose it cannot be very different in the US.

So, my final point. I prefer spending my money in FFG miniatures but I do it DESPITE their quality and diversity. I prefer BY FAR FFG gameplays and since Legion released I have only played/bought products from FFG (or adeptus titanicus). I love a good tactical game and only for that I prefer Legion. I hope one day we will have miniatures in FFG like the ones in GW 5 years ago. At least heroes with more details and more diversity in the corps units (maybe another expansion for Stormtroopers and Rebel Troopers at least with different poses or aliens).

Until then, I do not see FFG toppling again GW easily. It can be done but not easily with Legion. Maybe  if X-Wing 2.0 resurrects...

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Zeph01 said:

I would totally join you guys but thats over an hour drive for me.  It definitely varies area to area/store to store, Im in central CT, ive been playing since launch weekly with a buddy but we have only seen one other pair of people playing legion once in that time.  I did go to a tourney at the newington table top shop, i was the only local guy and luckily 7-8 others drove up from long island to come to the tournament.  my area is just jam packed with MTG and 40k sadly, every store in my area has a huge following of that, some x wing but hardly any legion (based on my observations)

An hour drive is not that bad... it takes me around an hour to reach my FLGS by public transport, and that's in the same city ;)

Edited by costi

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Senjius said:

But in the miniature department is just the other way around. GW wipes the floor with FFG miniatures.

Maybe but not with Perry Miniatures! The Perry brothers sculpted my favorite GW factions before leaving around 2010 to start their own company. So the sculpting is GW quality. They contract their casting out the same shop that did GW's casting. So the casting is the same quality. In terms of the units that have recently caught my eye (Electro-priests, some of the weird new Genestealer Cult units) GW sells a box of 5 infantry for $50, Perry's sell a box of 42 infantry for $35. No contest, how on earth can I buy the GW when that's the choice being offered to me at the gaming store?

Plus I like to have fun and get my hands dirty. I don't feel like I can do crazy experimental stuff with Citadel anymore, it's too risky. I might ruin something that was prohibitively expensive.

Quote

 

I can buy GW heroes for 20€ or FFG heroes for 15€, I can buy an ATST for 50€ or Drycha for 45€ and I suppose it cannot be very different in the US.

 

 

 

Warhammer heroes MSRP varies around $30 (some more some less), while Legion heroes are all $15. Drychas here are $60, while an AT-ST is $50.

Dark Imperium or Soul Wars is $160, the SW:L core set is $90.

I've been playing GW games since about 1995 and bought my first GW minis  (to use in other games) a year or two before that. I was pretty hardcore but they've lost me. I'm not boycotting them or anything, once in a blue moon I still buy their stuff. But they are losing badly out when it comes to competing for my time and money. I probably have a dozen or so assorted miniature wargames and about 8 armies of Citadel miniatures, plus some Citdael warbands. Used to be, those other games were an occasional break from GW, now GW is my occasional break from other games.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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@Tirion

I wish I could get a game of Legion as well, X-wing still has a little bit of a grasp. There is no-one that plays FFG games except x wing even though there are a ton of people who own the game

Our game store doesn't encourage a lot of game-playing to a certain extent.

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1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Maybe but not with Perry Miniatures! The Perry brothers sculpted my favorite GW factions before leaving around 2010 to start their own company. So the sculpting is GW quality. They contract their casting out the same shop that did GW's casting. So the casting is the same quality. In terms of the units that have recently caught my eye (Electro-priests, some of the weird new Genestealer Cult units) GW sells a box of 5 infantry for $50, Perry's sell a box of 42 infantry for $35. No contest, how on earth can I buy the GW when that's the choice being offered to me at the gaming store?

Plus I like to have fun and get my hands dirty. I don't feel like I can do crazy experimental stuff with Citadel anymore, it's too risky. I might ruin something that was prohibitively expensive.

Warhammer heroes MSRP varies around $30 (some more some less), while Legion heroes are all $15. Drychas here are $60, while an AT-ST is $50.

Dark Imperium or Soul Wars is $160, the SW:L core set is $90.

I've been playing GW games since about 1995 and bought my first GW minis  (to use in other games) a year or two before that. I was pretty hardcore but they've lost me. I'm not boycotting them or anything, once in a blue moon I still buy their stuff. But they are losing badly out when it comes to competing for my time and money. I probably have a dozen or so assorted miniature wargames and about 8 armies of Citadel miniatures, plus some Citdael warbands. Used to be, those other games were an occasional break from GW, now GW is my occasional break from other games.

I started off about same time, late 90s for Warhammer, focus mostly on fantasy, but like many moved to 40k.  I love the the models, still some of the best around, the community here in my area is also very pro GW and there is nothing wrong with that.  Attacking people for a different game does nothing but divide the gaming community.  That said, since legion, I took a step back from GW.  I skipped the kill teams hype and other specialty games.  I found that my wallet has never been happier.    There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with GW, except that you get into a spiral of spending.  With each new army codex the meta shifts or new update requiring massive shifts in units to bring and unless you have 3 of everything, you find you are spending money on things to keep up.    GW also has variety, currently our legion choices are limited by a lot.  Hopefully we will see a massive influx with CW models hitting later this year/early next.  Variety brings in players, being stuck to combat imp vs rebel, reb vs reb, or imp vs imp is only combination right now, compaired to GW with you playing a year and possibly not facing the same list or even army because of the deep catalog.

Now legion compared to Xwing is bit tougher.  I fell out of xwing years ago when got tired of playing nothing but meta lists that were all the same.  I know since then that has changed and my local community still has a thriving xwing group, but it did take a hit with 2.0 and even losing some to legion.  So feel like legion did more harm to xwing then it did to GW, as it shifted its fanbase vs pulled in GW fans.  

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2 hours ago, buckero0 said:

@Tirion

I wish I could get a game of Legion as well, X-wing still has a little bit of a grasp. There is no-one that plays FFG games except x wing even though there are a ton of people who own the game

Our game store doesn't encourage a lot of game-playing to a certain extent.

Do I have a Discord for you! https://discord.gg/U7hUuht

A lot of players know its a struggle to build up your local scene. I myself have been working on my store's group since August, and it is only now starting to really grow. The Legion Discord and the Table Top Simulator mod has given me a chance to play whenever I want, and test out new units. It not a perfect substitute for IRL games, but its allowed me to play when locally I could not.  

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2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Maybe but not with Perry Miniatures! The Perry brothers sculpted my favorite GW factions before leaving around 2010 to start their own company. So the sculpting is GW quality. They contract their casting out the same shop that did GW's casting. So the casting is the same quality.

I know the Perry Twins since the 90s and they were great in GW in that era. Then one of the poor brothers blew his good arm off with a frakking cannon (I did not believe it the first time I read it).

When they exited GW I did not follow a lot their new products but checking them now I do not see them as GW equals by far. Maybe you can point out the good models to me (here or by PM) because all the "new products" I search are mediocre like these: 

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=3996

Not horrible but even Legion´  s look better. I am sure they have better minis because they were good at sculpting.

Quote

Plus I like to have fun and get my hands dirty. I don't feel like I can do crazy experimental stuff with Citadel anymore, it's too risky. I might ruin something that was prohibitively expensive.

Totally true. I am not so good at "chopping" so I will not risk GW minis. I know people who are and they do a great work anyway.

 

Quote

Warhammer heroes MSRP varies around $30 (some more some less), while Legion heroes are all $15. Drychas here are $60, while an AT-ST is $50.

Dark Imperium or Soul Wars is $160, the SW:L core set is $90.

Very interesting. It seems that you are paying heavy taxes in GW products for being in the US. Almost a 50% extra in boxes like Dark Imperium. On the contrary SW:L core set is about 88€ in Europe (10% extra due to $-€ conversion). Maybe it is about some taxes to european products, I do not know almost anything about US trading policies.

 

Quote

I've been playing GW games since about 1995 and bought my first GW minis  (to use in other games) a year or two before that. I was pretty hardcore but they've lost me. I'm not boycotting them or anything, once in a blue moon I still buy their stuff. But they are losing badly out when it comes to competing for my time and money. I probably have a dozen or so assorted miniature wargames and about 8 armies of Citadel miniatures, plus some Citdael warbands. Used to be, those other games were an occasional break from GW, now GW is my occasional break from other games.

Almost my mirror image. Playing so hardcore since 1993 but now I only play their specialist games (Adeptus titanicus, necromunda, Blood Bowl...) and spend almost 0 in their miniatures. I do not know much about their game designers but their work for their great games (W40K and AoS) looks so bad nowadays. I recommend you to try Titanicus though, it is the best they have done in ages.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Senjius said:

Not horrible but even Legion´  s look better. I am sure they have better minis because they were good at sculpting.

Why? What's better or worse? The posing is exactly what it should be for artillerymen doing what artillerymen do.  They have all the details that they should have. The subject matter is what it is.  What are they supposed to do, encrust them with buckles for no reason or put them in improbable poses? That's what ruined a lot of the WFB factions. I really find the over the top visual style of roughly 7th edition WFB onward to be pointless, as well as the subject matter. GW flat out won't sell me knights anymore, for example. So if I want them, I am forced elsewhere.

Although as per that exact kit, I don't buy any of their musket era stuff though I stick to their medieval stuff. The multi-part plastic medieval kits are great fun.

What's better about Legion figures? I can tell you what's worse, based on my experience with having cleaned and assembled lots of both. Any given Legion model is going to be an inferior casting by far. Worse flashing, more gaps, the occasional "spur" where a piece left the sprue, etc. Perry stuff is pretty crisp.

I understand and agree that from a pure examination of the technical details of a sculpt, GW's are the best. But nothing exists in a vacuum. The improvements in Citadels quality over the last few years, in my opinion, are a perfect example of someone fixing something that was never broken. It's not like we were all pining for even more detail than the models already had, nor can we see these new details during games from 3 feet away.  The GW stuff might be more detailed but what does that detail get me when Legion minis already have all the details that they need? It's not like I paint my snowtroopers and think "I wish this figure had more doodads hanging off it".

All those oh-so-hard-to-sculpt spines and curls and wisps break off very easily. New GW figures are hard to store and transport too. They have a high center of gravity meaning they tip over during games.  A broken miniature is inferior in appearance. I've been shocked in recent years at how many brand new GW plastics I've opened to find broken details. GW armies for some reason are almost never painted. Historical armies are always painted in my experience and Legion almost always. A painted army looks better than any unpainted army.

Then again, if I just wanted a beautiful display object, I can get more beauty for my buck by switching gears out of miniature wargaming altogether and going into art and antique, or fossil and mineral, collecting.

Quote

 

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Almost my mirror image. Playing so hardcore since 1993

Yeah I was playing non-GW stuff back then, then I think it was Christmas of 1995 I got a GW boxed game and started getting more and more into them. In the 90's the other big companies largely folded for various reasons, most of which boiled down to, the RPG fad of the 1980's being long over. These closures drove a lot of customers GW's way. There really wasn't much else to pick from unless you were lucky to live in a very active gaming area. I recall back in the day these cheapskates in my town who insisted that Warzone and Chronopia looked "just as good as Warhammer miniatures" which was ridiculous. The figures lacked overhangs to keep the molds cheap, which really hurt detail and posing. Those folks just didn't want to be locked out of a decent size playerbase for their penny-pinching ways. Legend of Five Rings figures weren't problematic except, if you weren't into ninjas and samurai, there wasn't anything for you to buy. The historicals available at the time (Old Glory, for example) tended to have a lot of irreparable casting flaws and could be downright impossible to find for sale anyway. By about 1999 you could save a little money by buying non-GW stuff but there was usually a HUGE drop in quality. Now, I can save a HUGE amount of money and have a small drop in quality which I don't even mind. The "worse" figures are far more durable for playing actual games with, and in some cases look nicer than my Citadel stuff from the 2005ish era.

Now there's a lot more competition compared to the 90's, hence, why I'm puzzled that GW keeps such a big chunk of the market. Yes yes, from an evaluation of the technical aspect of the models they're best. But something missing artistically. I look at very few of those flawlessly executed, very complex and detailed figures, and think "I gotta have those". Like I said I don't boycott them or anything. It's just, when I'm at the store, I always see other stuff that's a way better use of money. I like some of the products and every couple years something's too good to pass up. But it's very different from when I bought a few GW products a month. I also have non-gaming hobbies to compare to, and GW has a hard time stacking up to those.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Gridloc said:

   There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with GW, except that you get into a spiral of spending.  With each new army codex the meta shifts or new update requiring massive shifts in units to bring and unless you have 3 of everything, you find you are spending money on things to keep up. 

I don't think anypne's attacking anything.

For me its more just keeping up on buying the endless army lists. Codices used to be $29.50 adjusted for inflation. Now they're like $50. That's a pretty steep percentage increase compared to inflation. Everytime a new edition comes out I have to decide if it's worth spending hundreds of dollars on army lists again. And just when I think I have a full 2,000 points painted, a new codex comes out and I have like 1,750 :(

I swear I'm this close to buying a bunch of shrink wrapped product from an online discounter for prizes, and hosting a few fully painted 1,000 point tournaments a year.

I will say the objectives the last many years, and the most recent core combat mechanics, of 40k are great. Also I was pleasantly surprised as I read my copy of Kill Team, that all I needed was the book, it contains its own army lists!

Edited by TauntaunScout

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On 3/12/2019 at 12:10 AM, Jman444 said:

It's funny, Im interested in the 40k models due to their nicer sculpts and the larger range of options but for some reason I just can't really understand the gameplay. I've heard a lot people say Kill Team is fun and easy so might give that a shot. But $60 for 10 models is pretty pricey when I realize I can get two units and a commander for Legion for almost the same price depending where Im shopping.

Games Workshop has some of the most bizarre pricing model of any game company and their miniatures are also the most expensive which is kind of in contrast to the gameplay which is actually the simplest ruleset with the most poorly written rules (giving an impression of complexity, but its more like the rule books are a bit incoherent).

This guy illustrates the strange price model pretty well.

 

Games Workshop Price Model

Warhammer 40k's popularity is largely driven but a long standing community and its extraordinarily well done and well supported setting, its recent revitalization is largely due to them finally releasing a somewhat competent ruleset, though its still miles behind FFG or Privateer Press, both of which have great mechanics for their game and crystal clear rulebooks.

For as long as I can remember (at least the last 10 years) with occasional exception (according to ICV2), the packing order of best selling miniatures games has been Warhammer 40k, then Warmachine (lumped up with Horde), followed by everyone else.  Both Warmachine and Warhammer 40k have a pretty rabid and loyal fan base, which not everyone agree's, but is probably well deserved.  After all, the developers of both of these games have maintained full dedication to its support long term for these games.  Privateer Press in particular is a extremely dedicated to supporting their fan base, they post several videos every week produced by the company to support their games with information exchange, educational videos etc.. and they are constantly advancing the genre.  In my book Privateer Press is one of the best companies for miniature games today and arguably Warmachine/Horde is one of the best Assemble and Paint games on the market.

FFG has done a great job, but their products tend to be quite niche.  For example Legion, Armada and X-Wing are all based on the Star Wars licenses and each game only has 2-3 factions available compared to say Warmachine/Horde which has over a dozen and growing and Warhammer 40k.. I don't even know.  This offers a lot of diversity and selection which I think is part of what keeps games like Legion relatively localized.

Its a great game but what Legion really needs in order to break out and become an established miniature game is more faction, like lots more 8-12 and it needs to have a far more aggressive release schedule.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Why? What's better or worse? The posing is exactly what it should be for artillerymen doing what artillerymen do.  They have all the details that they should have. The subject matter is what it is.  What are they supposed to do, encrust them with buckles for no reason or put them in improbable poses?

I understand and agree that from a pure examination of the technical details of a sculpt, GW's are the best.

Ok, I see your point now. You accept that GW has the best sculpted miniatures but you can play/paint without so many details. I can agree with you, the required level of detail for a miniature is a subjective thing. I prefer mine more finely sculpted as I can appreciate it.

I disagree about your comment about the artillerymen. It is not about encrusting them with more details. It is about having a better sculpting/casting. It is difficult for me to write it down in english but their lines are not precise. The pose is very static but I can live with that. The level of detail is just not enough for me. Same mini in the same pose with the same "details" but a more "precise" sculpt/cut/cast" would look a lot more realistic.

About "encrusted" miniatures you have a lot of them in W40K because that is the style of the Imperium. It is a baroque society with everything encrusted with skulls. But that is choosen to be this way. If you look at tyranids, my link about the gorechosen, Tau and many other miniatures, they have a lot of detail without being overcharged with pockets, skulls, candles or whatever but they remain precise sculpted miniatures.

 

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Although as per that exact kit, I don't buy any of their musket era stuff though I stick to their medieval stuff. The multi-part plastic medieval kits are great fun.

Multi part plastic kits always are fun and help with the diversity problem in big (or repeated) units. We want CORPS diversity pretty pleaseee

 

Quote

The improvements in Citadels quality over the last few years, in my opinion, are a perfect example of someone fixing something that was never broken. It's not like we were all pining for even more detail than the models already had, nor can we see these new details during games from 3 feet away.  The GW stuff might be more detailed but what does that detail get me when Legion minis already have all the details that they need? It's not like I paint my snowtroopers and think "I wish this figure had more doodads hanging off it".

They were never broken, but they sure have improved them. I liked Wood Elves 10 years ago and I like them even more now. Check the dryads. They were great, now they are SUPERIOR. Check the skeletons, they were good, now they are Incredible. You can see the gaps between their ribs. Just fantastic to paint and play with. During a game you look at them from 2 feet away a lot of time but many times you look at them close, and when an enemy hero is in front of them you cheer for them from pretty close. Anyway, that is subjective so maybe my requirements are higher than yours but that is fine. Maybe that is the reason you do not understand why GW is still on top, because for you that level of detail is excessive but for a very big chunk of the playerbase is not.

 

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GW armies for some reason are almost never painted. Historical armies are always painted in my experience and Legion almost always. A painted army looks better than any unpainted army.

Not in my area. Around here W40K and Fantasy are always painted and Legion is almost never painted. That is because people into W40K has been playing a long time and they had time to paint their entire armies. When something new comes out they can paint it properly or play with something else of their collection until the new things are painted. With Legion we are in the first months of "real wargaming". Now we have 2 armies with a little diversity and a lot of folks are finally buying complete armies instead of just core sets to try the game. The "inner circle" of SW:L in our area have a complete army of 800 points painted BUT we lacked "painted diversity" so when we get bored and try new lists, those lists are unpainted. I hope next year we will have 1600 painted points of each faction to play with. It is slow paced but I am sure we will get there.

 

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Then again, if I just wanted a beautiful display object, I can get more beauty for my buck by switching gears out of miniature wargaming altogether and going into art and antique, or fossil and mineral, collecting.

Again, personal choices. I do like to display "art" when I am playing Legion or other games and I appreciate it so much when the opponent does the same because we tend to enjoy it so much more.

 

Not that it can´  t be done with Legion, I have a few minis I am proud of owning:

 

Veers  and  Luke

 

fwAxzbX.jpg

 

WfjGvlg.jpg

I like a great level of painting in my miniatures and Legion ones can be very good (I consider both of this jobs very good) but to achieve a great level I require a bit more of finesse in the sculpting/casting part.

 

 

Edited by Senjius

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At my local store I managed one game of Legion with a regular 40K player who bought the core set and wanted to try it. No one is playing it, we used to have a regular x-wing group, which saw a rival in 2.0, but has now died again. The store owners bought in heavy with Legions, but it just rots on the shelf. The did a buy one get one free around Christmas and I got a ton, but I think I was the only person who bought any.

 

40K is king of the miniatures scene, which boggles my mind, because as others point out the game play is pretty bad.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Senjius said:

Ok, I see your point now. You accept that GW has the best sculpted miniatures

From a purely objective technical standpoint, yes. However, it really is "too much of a good thing" and hurts the final product in my eyes.

I DO still buy a new GW product now and then, I feel I can make an informed evaluation of their current state. I like their big boxed games, some of their scenery kits, the occasional squad etc.

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I disagree about your comment about the artillerymen. It is not about encrusting them with more details. It is about having a better sculpting/casting. It is difficult for me to write it down in english but their lines are not precise. The pose is very static but I can live with that. The level of detail is just not enough for me. Same mini in the same pose with the same "details" but a more "precise" sculpt/cut/cast" would look a lot more realistic.

Dunno might be an issue of the photograph too. These 19th century artillerymen do look better though, in my opinion. https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=3015

And the medieval plastics are better than any Bretonnian or Empire figures GW ever did. Even if I were to cede them as being inferior to the current "orruks" and "aelves" (which I don't) who cares? I need knights not "orruks" anyways. At the end of the day if I am looking for subject matter that GW simply refuses to provide, technical execution is meaningless.

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=3414

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=3967

The Uk to US pricing differential is weird, it's been around since the 90's and I'm not convinced it's a taxes and trade policy issue. GW seems to be the only UK company so affected. Everyone else is able to setup a US distributor and charge little or no more than what I'd expect from currency conversion. GW also seems to be the only company that was dying under the onus of rising tin costs and "had" to switch to Finecast and plastic that inexplicably cost more than metal. It's suspicious to say the least.

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About "encrusted" miniatures you have a lot of them in W40K because that is the style of the Imperium.

It's spread to a lot more races than just the scifi humans though. There's a fine line between cohesion and stagnation.

 

58 minutes ago, Greasypotatoes said:

40K is king of the miniatures scene, which boggles my mind, because as others point out the game play is pretty bad.

 

Social pressure counts for a lot. Everyone is playing it, so everyone plays it. It also never ceases to amaze me how few companies most gamers really know about. If a store carried GW, FFG, maybe Flames of War or Reaper stuff, and the latest prepainted things, most miniature gamers I've ever met would say "That place has EVERYTHING!!!". But the reality is, that just scratches the surface of what's out there. I could probably list a dozen more besides, and  I think that's one of the great things about Legion, it's getting people to look around at more than one thing. I'm very, very lucky that my FLGS carries miniatures from dozens of manufacturers, plus traditional model kits and train layout supplies besides. But in this day and age of the internet, I don't get why cool gaming stuff doesn't get spread around better.

I don't think 40k's gameplay is bad per se. I really like the core rules. It's the labyrinthine army lists that get me. Unless you frequently play against the same faction, it's kind of impossible to know if your opponent cheats: "They have Scurvy AND the unit leader is Scrumptious! Plus your guys knive's are Obtuse not Haggled. So I get to re-roll those.". 

It might be interesting to see how this all plays out though with Disney licensing out SW wargames. GW's a huge gaming company but this is a cottage industry. GW's the very biggest dog in the pack: Disney is an elephant. If 40k prevents the governor of the province of Star Wars Wargames from sending reliable tax revenue back to the capital, Emperor Mouse might not hesitate to swat 40k down a peg. It's amazing what a company like that can do if they decide to spend aggressively on advertising against a small competitor for a year or two: they don't need to convert 40k players, they just need to snag an outsized percentage of new wargamers. Or buy Games Workshop and make a Space Marines ride. Or, they might just cancel FFG's license and invest elsewhere. :( Or I'm being dramatic and nothing interesting will happen. It's usually that one.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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10 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Dunno might be an issue of the photograph too. These 19th century artillerymen do look better though, in my opinion. https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=3015

I do not like to judge just by the photo but at first I would still appreciate more detail into these miniatures. I repeat, they are not bad at all. Just a bit more finess with the sculpting would be great. I will take a look in the local shops.

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And the medieval plastics are better than any Bretonnian or Empire figures GW ever did. Even if I were to cede them as being inferior to the current "orruks" and "aelves" (which I don't) who cares? I need knights not "orruks" anyways.

GW produced great cavalry for the first time about 8-10 years ago (wood elves). All bretonnian and empire cavalry are SO OLD. Bretonnia was not even updated in 7th and 8th edition while Empire was (but not his cavalry miniatures which are VERY BAD. Then, as you have said, Kurnous and Thorn sisters arrived (which are great) and then some more for aelves.

 

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GW also seems to be the only company that was dying under the onus of rising tin costs and "had" to switch to Finecast and plastic that inexplicably cost more than metal. It's suspicious to say the least.

+1. I did not believe that at all. They changed to plastic for the jump in quality due to the change in production machinery. And wow what a change it was. From metal monsters and metal infantry to the new multipart plastic miniatures. Best change they have ever made.

 

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Social pressure counts for a lot. Everyone is playing it, so everyone plays it.

It does help that they have the numbers. But they have the numbers for a reason. The visual aspect of a wargame is its best recruiter. Nobody checks first the rulebook and then says "Hey, I am going to take a look at the minis". And in a few years you have the snowball effect in action. Nowadays we can see FFG games compiting in the stores for the same space with 40k or AoS. We are seeing better miniatures in Legion and if FFG keeps the good work maybe we can see FFG products at the top of the hill again.

 

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I don't think 40k's gameplay is bad per se. I really like the core rules. It's the labyrinthine army lists that get me.

The core rules were HORRIBLE in 7th edition. 8th simplified that but you still play a game in which the most important thing is to win the "Who goes first? roll". The best thing about Legion activations is not having to play again Vs Imperial Guard, Eldar or whatever and to play "second player" just to see a third of your army disappear in the first volley. I hated that so much... And yes, you had to study ALL the armybooks. If you did not know your enemy you were screwed. And the problem did not have to be cheaters, just not knowing your enemy was asking for a stomping. I always remember the frakking Kurnous riders with no less than 7 special rules. Stuff of nightmares to follow your opponent moves trying to understand what he was doing. Long live FFG keywords please!

 

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It might be interesting to see how this all plays out though with Disney licensing out a SW wargames. GW's a huge gaming company but this is a cottage industry. GW's the very biggest dog in the pack, but Disney is an elephant.

Correct. Hoping for the best around here!

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Concerning grade of details, there really is a point where it becomes too much. I noticed it a lot with the recent Chaos stuff from GW. Started with the Death Guard, with all of those extra stuff that dangles around everywhere. With some of the recent releases I honestly didn't know where to look at, since with so many details and stuff, there isn't really a point to focus on the mini. I had to look thrice at mortarion, to notice where his head was. 

 

Though I have to say, they do make some of the best models, but also some of the ugliest ones imo. Still good quality, but sometimes their models just look so hideous. 

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51 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

FFG would greatly benefit from switching to styrene... Crisp details please... Plus plastic cement.

Yeah. I don't get the whole "boardgame plastic, pre-broken off the sprue" thing. But I"m too old and tired to maintain the "different is wrong" schtick too. So I just superglue them and that's that. They aren't the worst plastic polymer I've seen minis cast in.

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6 minutes ago, Albertese said:

@TauntaunScout thank you for bringing up Perry Miniatures. I have somehow never heard of them, but it seems like they fit my needs for medieval stuff perfectly. I'll be ordering from them soon. 

They're pretty amazing. I used their WOTR era stuff to make a Frostgrave warband where each model is a copy of one of my friends from 15th century reenactment. I was able to match the right helmets to the right weapons, etc. to make dead-on copies of all my mates!

I started making a Joan of Arc army out of those boxes too, got it all painted, then sold it to a friend because the 1450-90 look of the affordable plastics wasn't dead-on for that era, and... right after I finished painting they came out with cheap plastic 1430's stuff! Synch is what I'm out of, as Patrick McManus said.

Not that the metals are unaffordable per se. But the higher cost was compounded by the need to special-order their metal lines, whereas the FLGS regularly stocks Perry plastics.

Depending on what game you play, you'll need new bases for them. The guys are molded to little "blob bases" like old school DnD minis but also come with strip bases for some game or other, whose dimensions baffle me, seems like 15mm wide and 20mm deep for a single infantryman, though almost all the included bases are for groups of 3+ men or 2+ horses. I based mine on Renedra 1" squares for infantry, and 1x2" rectangles for cavalry, so I can use them in Kings of War and Warhammer: Ancient Battles.

Renedra, for their part, makes all kinds of cool bases, scenery, accessories, and such. It's a small group of men who run an injection molding company. They used to own and run the shop that GW subcontracted out for casting plastics. Eventually it became economical for GW to buy their shop. The same guys then used that money to start Renedra. GW's old sculptors working with GW's old casters. Perfecto! Although I think when orders get too high or whatever, GW still occasionally has to subcontract out to Renedra, it's hard to replace the expertise that crew brings to the table. Almost everyone uses Renedra, or so a GW employee once told me.

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23 hours ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

FFG would greatly benefit from switching to styrene... Crisp details please... Plus plastic cement.

???

Dewback is confused. Perhaps I'm just distracted by the hady aroma of bantha dung and superglue, though.

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