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mcintma

Nib cost me the game

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No shade at all on my opponent, I was just wondering if the nibs had been a problem for others ‘commonly’, and venting my personal angst that that seems an awful huge swing for just a nib. If I ran FFG I might change that rule (obv would run it thru playtesters 1st)  but that’s just my opinion.

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5 hours ago, mcintma said:

No shade at all on my opponent, I was just wondering if the nibs had been a problem for others ‘commonly’, and venting my personal angst that that seems an awful huge swing for just a nib. If I ran FFG I might change that rule (obv would run it thru playtesters 1st)  but that’s just my opinion.

Quick answer: no.

Long answer: not really. There have been times where it mattered a bit, but in the grand scheme of things, those are very rare. Needing a barrel roll and boost to save your ship means you it was in trouble to begin with, it just turned south this one time.

Changing the rule would lead to ignore nubs would just mean that you'd get the same angst where your ship is 1mm forward and the TO has to make the call whether it's just the "not counting" nub or also a slice of the base that is overlapping. As for removing nubs and relying on lining up the template line with the base ... you're just lucky you missed out on some special local player(s) that could turn a straight into a slight bank better than anyone with nubs, imagine the things they could accomplish without. Angst is multiplied when precision goes out the window, trust me.

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2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I've been calling it "nub", why has no one corrected me... i feel so embraced.

Nibs, Nubs, Tabs, Stubs... Heard 'em all and they're all accurate. :) 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2019 at 7:43 PM, Ccwebb said:

Hmmm.... I didn’t think the nubs (nibs) counted for anything. Meaning can’t use them for range or debris.  

They count for range/arc, not anything else.

"Guides on a ship’s base are ignored only while measuring range or determining whether a ship is in an arc." RR Guides

Overlap is defined as "would physically be on top of", no mention of range, and most of the obstacle effect are triggered by overlap.

Interestingly, asteroids preventing attacks seems to depend only on range, so it seems in the OP case he would still be able to fire if he had a valid target.

Edited by prauxim
seems that the range 0 condition for asteroids doesn't actually involve measurement

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9 minutes ago, drjkel said:

Quick answer: no.

Long answer: not really. There have been times where it mattered a bit, but in the grand scheme of things, those are very rare. Needing a barrel roll and boost to save your ship means you it was in trouble to begin with, it just turned south this one time.

Changing the rule would lead to ignore nubs would just mean that you'd get the same angst where your ship is 1mm forward and the TO has to make the call whether it's just the "not counting" nub or also a slice of the base that is overlapping. As for removing nubs and relying on lining up the template line with the base ... you're just lucky you missed out on some special local player(s) that could turn a straight into a slight bank better than anyone with nubs, imagine the things they could accomplish without. Angst is multiplied when precision goes out the window, trust me.

Kylo was full health and would have been in no trouble at all if that nib hadn't existed, I moved there with a plan ;) But your point is taken for sure. It was (obviously) too risky.

I was thinking, guides could be inset into the plastic base like a 0.5mm slot you could fit the maneuver template in. Get rid of the nasty ugly in-the-way nibs LOL. An idea for 3.0 ;)

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Interestingly, asteroids preventing attacks seems to depend only on range, so it seems in the OP case he would still be able to fire if he had a valid target.

Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching.

  • After a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is at range 0 of the last ship it overlapped.
  • An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.

Unfortunately it appears not :(

Edited by mcintma

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42 minutes ago, mcintma said:

Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching.

  • After a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is at range 0 of the last ship it overlapped.
  • An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.

Unfortunately it appears not :(

Hmm... Does this defeat Guide text I quoted?

I guess so, since the Guide text mentions specifically "measuring range" where as this text seems to circumvent the need for measuring.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, mcintma said:

Kylo was full health and would have been in no trouble at all if that nib hadn't existed, I moved there with a plan ;) But your point is taken for sure. It was (obviously) too risky.

I was thinking, guides could be inset into the plastic base like a 0.5mm slot you could fit the maneuver template in. Get rid of the nasty ugly in-the-way nibs LOL. An idea for 3.0 ;)

I like the idea, but even now I can hear the complaints. 

"They inset the guides just so the 3.0 maneuvers would be a little longer and we'd be forced to buy new core sets!"

Edited by JJ48

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9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I like the idea, but even now I can hear the complaints. 

"They inset the guides just so the 3.0 maneuvers would be a little longer and we'd be forced to buy new core sets!"

Pretty sure they didn't do this with 2nd edition so people could still use all of their 1E Official tournament prize template sets that they give out at like every major tournament, along with some concern for secondary market custom sets and bases. Getting the line added is fairly easy. While getting the inset for the template would have been a better solution, it would have invalidated a lot of people's treasured prizes. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/11/2019 at 3:22 PM, mcintma said:

I was thinking, guides could be inset into the plastic base like a 0.5mm slot you could fit the maneuver template in. Get rid of the nasty ugly in-the-way nibs LOL. An idea for 3.0 ;)


This is how the bases were for Attack Wing (Star Trek & D&D variants).  Folks who want to casually use this method and removed nubs from their kitchen-table games could track down the WizKids bases to do so (though they didn't have Medium bases, sorry U-Wings).

In my opinion, the inset made it much easier for a player to fudge their maneuvers by not pushing the movement template all the way flush with the back wall of the inset.  For instance, you could push the right corner of your right turn flush but have the left corner barely into the inset space, and you'd be effectively turning more sharply (or less sharply) since your tool was at an angle.  Given how often a "close move" in X-Wing comes down to a couple millimeters, this sort of fudging can often have a significant impact in the game.


To be fair, people still fudge their moves all the time with the external nubs method, sadly, but at least the external means of using maneuver templates makes it more public and easier for a player to try and visually verify that their opponent is executing maneuvers appropriately.  The internal method would be much harder for an opponent to verify, unless he or she always made sure to touch the firmness of the template's insert before the opponent executed the move.

 

Which is why, I suspect, that FFG went with nubs in the first place.  The inset method uses less plastic and is visually more simple, so they must have had a reason for wanting nubs in all of its lack of elegance. And I'm suspect it's because it encouraged more accurate execution of maneuvers.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

People still fudge their moves all the time with the external nubs method, sadly, but at least the external means of using maneuver templates makes it more public and easier for a player to try and visually verify that their opponent is executing manveuvers appropriately.  The internal method would be much harder for an opponent to verify, unless they always made sure to touch the firmness of the tool's insert before the opponent executed the move.

Solid point!

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3 hours ago, RebelRogue said:

Wait...I'm not the only one flying Temmin?

Ottawa/Gatineau has always had a very, very weird meta.

For example, Back in Paratanni's heydays, only 4 out of 64 brought it to our regional, and 3 of those were from out of town! Our weirdness was evident in the top 8 though, only the weirdos willing to run the actual meta, myself (Paratanni) and another local (RAC and Carnor), made the cut.

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On 3/11/2019 at 5:42 AM, player2072913 said:

But, that's not poor sportsmanship. Poor sportsmanship would be laughing or cheering when they clipped the rock. 

Good sportsmanship would be to share in their excitement or disappointment. Congratulate them on a good idea, but let them know how unlucky they were it was that close. Good sportsmanship is about the attitude behind the game, not how closely or loosely you stick with the rules. 

In fact, guilting your opponent with accusations of poor sportsmanship for not letting you move the ship off from the rock is poor sportsmanship.. 

nope.

sportsmanship covers many things. its being polite, accepting defeat without complaining, winning graciously, etc....  but its also an attitude towards playing. giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt when something is unclear or dubious is also good sportsmanship. I cant watch streams of this game because people play loose and sloppy all game with placement but get sassy about something like a nib when its in their favor. like just relax. WAAC play is ALWAYS unsportsmanlike by its very nature, and the game simply isnt as precise as people pretend. this is not chess where its exact grids, theres a looot of literal wiggle room. ships get bumped, angles change slightly, models overlap even when bases dont. so maybe saying "holy **** thats sooo close its ridiculous, ill give it to ya" is better sportsmanship than counting the faintest graze of a nib.

i mean Lando and Ten numb smashed the Falcons relay off while flyin fancy and still got to barrel roll, so just roll with it?

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On 3/11/2019 at 3:01 PM, drjkel said:

Quick answer: no.

Long answer: not really. There have been times where it mattered a bit, but in the grand scheme of things, those are very rare. Needing a barrel roll and boost to save your ship means you it was in trouble to begin with, it just turned south this one time.

Changing the rule would lead to ignore nubs would just mean that you'd get the same angst where your ship is 1mm forward and the TO has to make the call whether it's just the "not counting" nub or also a slice of the base that is overlapping. As for removing nubs and relying on lining up the template line with the base ... you're just lucky you missed out on some special local player(s) that could turn a straight into a slight bank better than anyone with nubs, imagine the things they could accomplish without. Angst is multiplied when precision goes out the window, trust me.

this game is not THAT precise

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3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

nope.

sportsmanship covers many things. its being polite, accepting defeat without complaining, winning graciously, etc....  but its also an attitude towards playing. 

Agreed

3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt when something is unclear or dubious is also good sportsmanship. 

Sort of agree here. But regardless, in the case in point, its not dubious as to whether the ship is on the rock. Its close, but in no way unclear. 

3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

 I cant watch streams of this game because people play loose and sloppy all game with placement but get sassy about something like a nib when its in their favor. like just relax. 

States such as bumping or not, or being on a rock or not are some of the few things in the game that are binary, and 99.9% of the time it's clear which side of the line they fall on. In a game as loose and chaotic. As X-wing, it's nice to have these on/off calls to make sometimes.

As someone who plays about 50% in tournaments, and about 50% on a kitchen table (usually a bedroom floor really), I have to say that I would enforce these binary states pretty closely. Especially against my self. 

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

WAAC play is ALWAYS unsportsmanlike by its very nature

I mean, yeah if you want to win at all costs, then sure sportsmanship will be one of those costs. I just don't believe that the majority of players you dub as 'WAAC' are actually trying to win so badly. They'll draw the line somewhere. Usually far before unsportsmanlike conduct or cheating. 

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

 

i mean Lando and Ten numb smashed the Falcons relay off while flyin fancy and still got to barrel roll, so just roll with it?

Hm, you've made me think, I don't think I've seen any ship in SW barrel roll more often than the Falcon. Although saying that I'm very glad they didn't give the falcon a roll in the game. 

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4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

nope.

sportsmanship covers many things. its being polite, accepting defeat without complaining, winning graciously, etc....  but its also an attitude towards playing. giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt when something is unclear or dubious is also good sportsmanship. I cant watch streams of this game because people play loose and sloppy all game with placement but get sassy about something like a nib when its in their favor. like just relax. WAAC play is ALWAYS unsportsmanlike by its very nature, and the game simply isnt as precise as people pretend. this is not chess where its exact grids, theres a looot of literal wiggle room. ships get bumped, angles change slightly, models overlap even when bases dont. so maybe saying "holy **** thats sooo close its ridiculous, ill give it to ya" is better sportsmanship than counting the faintest graze of a nib.

i mean Lando and Ten numb smashed the Falcons relay off while flyin fancy and still got to barrel roll, so just roll with it?

So when does "sooo close" become "yep, that's a bump"? What if one player doesn't see the bump as dubious or unclear? Do we have to get your approval now for all of these situations? I'm all for a bit of leeway one way or another but you seem to be ascribing behaviour to the players involved here (not giving the benefit of the doubt, getting "sassy about something like a nib" etc) without any justification for that whatsoever. For all you know the player controlling the ship was the one that called the overlap with the asteroid. Following the rules is never inherently poor sportsmanship. The response to situations that go for or against you is what makes an otherwise rules legal situation good or bad sportsmanship. You don't have enough information about those non-rules situations in this case to declare it poor sportsmanship.

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8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

i mean Lando and Ten numb smashed the Falcons relay off while flyin fancy and still got to barrel roll, so just roll with it


(1) Nien Nunb, not Ten Numb.  Do all Sullustans look the same to you, huh?  :)
(2) The Falcon doesn't barrel roll in that scene (or anywhere within the superstructure at all), as it's merely spinning but staying on the same "horizontal" axis.  Note that in X-Wing a barrel roll doesn't mean simply "to spin in leftward or rightward circles while traveling along the same vector" (as any and every ship capable of spaceflight could do that), but rather a "barrel roll" in X-Wing involves a maneuver with substantial lateral (side-to-side) movement.  I mean, I know we all loved playing Star Fox as kids, but spinning =/= barrel roll.  In aviation parlance, a barrel roll is actually a complicated sort of roll with substantial vertical and horizontal travel, as if the craft was tracing around the outside surface of an imaginary cylinder (or ... wait for it... barrel...) that ends with the ship's final position being quite displaced along the horizontal axis but not the original vertical axis.  This is not something the Falcon does in any scenes we ever see.

Otherwise, awesome argument supporting your position that denying an opponent actions when they are objectively on an asteroid is bad sportsmanship... 🤣

 

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On 3/9/2019 at 5:13 PM, mcintma said:

Last turn. Kylo lands with half the nib (just the very tip of the nib) held up on the outjut of that asteroid.  This meant the planned BR+boost [Edited from focus/BR - gettin old] to get out of Wexley's arc doesn't happen and range 1 shot on the 1-health Bastian ahead of Kylo (just off camera) is lost. *And* flying thru a 'roid next turn (not SNR Kylo) had there been time.

Lost the game by a couple points on MOV (store tourney). Argh! all that for a stupid nib-tip.  Sorry, needed to vent ;) wondering how common this is for fellow players ?

IMG_1344_small.JPG

Haaaaa haaaaaaaa! * points *

Edited by JediSamurai

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