Han Solo and Magva

[meffo 1,401]

Just now, KiAdiMoody said:

Cool, so we agree that "cannot", while absolute, may not have any game effect depending on the ability it is interacting with. Would you agree that the only abilities that Magva interacts with are rerolls?

oh, reaching are we? yes, i agree. "cannot" is an absolute effect, but does not have to interact with any player effects or game effects currently present in the game state.

how ever, please also note that effects that use "cannot" are absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

will you agree that Han Solos ability is an effect that tries to override Magvas effect?

[KiAdiMoody 109]

I would if Han’s ability didn’t say it wasn’t a reroll. 

[KiAdiMoody 109]

So yeah, we’re at an impasse without FFG clarification. Thanks, @meffo, for the exercise.  It’s helpful to get at the essence of the issue and I feel I understand your position a lot better now. 

[meffo 1,401]

7 minutes ago, KiAdiMoody said:

I would if Han’s ability didn’t say it wasn’t a reroll. 

So yeah, we’re at an impasse without FFG clarification. Thanks, @meffo, for the exercise.  It’s helpful to get at the essence of the issue and I feel I understand your position a lot better now. 

so Magvas effect isn't an absolute then? even though it clearly says so in the rules reference?

Hans ability isn't an absolute, it's just like any other ability in the game (except for that it's a real mess of course). according to the rules reference, rules that use the term "cannot" are absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects. yet you still think Hans ability should override Magvas. how do you justify that?

and how do you justify it in light of this sentence: "If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."?

how do you achieve consistency in your interpretation of the rules?

and yes, i 100% agree with @KiAdiMoody. we need a clarification from FFG on Han Solos ability.

my thanks to you as well for putting up with me, good sir.

[KiAdiMoody 109]

@meffo since you asked my justification :

 

Magva’s ability has 100% authority over rerolls and Han’s ability isn’t a reroll. 

[meffo 1,401]

3 minutes ago, KiAdiMoody said:

@meffo since you asked my justification :

 

Magva’s ability has 100% authority over rerolls and Han’s ability isn’t a reroll. 

but it is a reroll, no questions asked. it doesn't count as a reroll for other effects, but you're still picking up the dice and rerolling them. you're saying that the absoluteness of "cannot" is overwritten by a normal pilot ability?

that just does not make sense to me. well, to each his or her own, i presume. doesn't change the fact that we need a clarification.

[Maui. 2,815]

So if I'm reading the rules correctly, then Han is the unstoppable force and Magva is the immovable object.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

More magva is an immovable object and Han is an ill advised poorly written mess with unclear interactions.

[Tvboy 3,529]

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

So if I'm reading the rules correctly, then Han is the unstoppable force and Magva is the immovable object.

Yep, and we're all arguing that these two things don't actually interact in any way and avoid the paradox, because Magva says "if you are X, I will stop you" and Han says "I look like X, but I'm not actually X", and Magva says "hmmm, guess I have noting to say to you then, move along". 

@meffo thinks that Han is a liar and that his reroll is still a reroll, even though it says in plain English on the card that it is not a reroll and is therefore not affected by effects that affect rerolls. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tvboy

[meffo 1,401]

1 minute ago, Tvboy said:

Yep, and we're all arguing that these two things don't actually interact in any way and avoid the paradox, because Magva says "if you are X, I will stop you" and Han says "I look like X, but I'm not actually X", and Magva says "hmmm, guess I have noting to say to you then, move along". 

@meffo thinks that Han is a liar and that his reroll is still a reroll, even though it says in plain English on the card that it is not a reroll and is therefore not affected by effects that affect rerolls. 

yes. han is a liar - and his ability does not trump magvas because she clearly states "cannot". that is absolute and cannot be overridden by other abilities, which you obviously take no heed to what so ever.

mind you, i still agree that the intent is there, but the rules as written are definitely not. you cannot just choose to ignore the golden rules just because you happen to like han solo.

i mean, i happily ignore hans ability in regards to magvas, since i don't like him.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

'These dice do not count as having been rerolled' would be the simplest and most elegant fix.  They are being rerolled, but when you look back and ask if they have been rerolled once, because you're trying to do it again, the answer is no.

[Tvboy 3,529]

7 minutes ago, meffo said:

yes. han is a liar - and his ability does not trump magvas because she clearly states "cannot". that is absolute and cannot be overridden by other abilities, which you obviously take no heed to what so ever.

I think if Magva's ability said "rerolls cannot not be counted as rerolls for the purpose of other effects", I would 100% agree with you. The Cannot™ in that sentence would override the 2nd clause of Han's ability. 

 

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

'These dice do not count as having been rerolled' would be the simplest and most elegant fix.  They are being rerolled, but when you look back and ask if they have been rerolled once, because you're trying to do it again, the answer is no.

Well then Han's ability would absolutely be affected by Magva. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tvboy

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 minute ago, Tvboy said:

Well then Han's ability would absolutely be affected by Magva. 

Correct.  It would fix the whole issue with Han's ability both being and not being a modification; it categorically WOULD be a modification, but it would not be in retrospect, and it doesn't matter in retrospect, because anything that cares, has already stopped it working.

I suspect this is how Han is intended to work, purely because of the way the FAQ about whether Magva works versus Han reads.

[meffo 1,401]

13 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I think if Magva's ability said "rerolls cannot not be counted as rerolls for the purpose of other effects", I would 100% agree with you. The Cannot™ in that sentence would override the 2nd clause of Han's ability. 

 

Well then Han's ability would absolutely be affected by Magva. 

ok, so why is a "cannot" without special han-clauses not enough to count? a "cannot" is an absolute effect that cannot be overridden by other effects, but hans good old pilot ability is a special case? in what way? it states that the rerolls don't count as rerolls? sure, but it still cannot override "cannot"-effects according to the rules reference.

Edited March 9, 2019 by meffo

[Tvboy 3,529]

39 minutes ago, meffo said:

ok, so why is a "cannot" without special han-clauses enough to count? a "cannot" is an absolute effect that cannot be overridden by other effects, but hans good old pilot ability is a special case? in what way? it states that the rerolls don't count as rerolls? sure, but it still cannot override "cannot"-effects according to the rules reference.

I don't think Han overrides Magva's effect, I think they just don't interact at all. I think Han effectively dodges being affected by Magva at all by not being considered a reroll. I am not of the opinion that all abilities are are all checking each other and interacting with each other at all times even when they don't have relevance, which I think is the position you're coming from based on your response to my Magva vs Ten Numb example, but honestly I can't prove or disprove either approach with what FFG has given us to work with. But I will concede that Han is a unique snowflake in this game and his "this does not count as" text stands alone as the only example of such an effect, and I would say this text is in the realm of Dash Rendar and Q'ira in needing FFG to clarify what does this text actually mean? 

 I cannot deny that you probably have a stronger case than us with direct evidence from the rules reference. ****, I think you might actually be wearing me down on this. 

[Hiemfire 7,292]

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

'These dice do not count as having been rerolled'

🤨 Wouldn't that result in Han's ability being a continuous trigger loop since each Han roll would be treated as a new roll (thus a new opportunity) to him as well as everything else? His current wording locks him out of repeatedly Haning the roll results till his player gets the result they want...

[Maui. 2,815]

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Wouldn't that result in Han's ability being a continuous trigger loop since each Han roll would be treated as a new roll (thus a new opportunity) to him as well as everything else? His current wording locks him out of repeatedly Haning the roll results till his player gets the result they want...

Han's ability is not a roll, and so cannot trigger itself.

[Hiemfire 7,292]

24 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Han's ability is not a roll, and so cannot trigger itself.

🤨 Um... Did you read what I quoted? Han currently treats the re-roll from his ability as such limiting him via "only reroll once per opportunity". Every other effect considers it a roll. Re-word Han as was suggested in what I quoted and then he considers it a roll and not a re-roll. Only re-roll once per opportunity no longer applies then...

Edited March 9, 2019 by Hiemfire
Wrong limiter

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

You still used the ability even if you no longer consider the dice to have been rerolled by it, once per oppprtunity still applies.

[meffo 1,401]

12 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I don't think Han overrides Magva's effect, I think they just don't interact at all. I think Han effectively dodges being affected by Magva at all by not being considered a reroll. I am not of the opinion that all abilities are are all checking each other and interacting with each other at all times even when they don't have relevance, which I think is the position you're coming from based on your response to my Magva vs Ten Numb example, but honestly I can't prove or disprove either approach with what FFG has given us to work with. But I will concede that Han is a unique snowflake in this game and his "this does not count as" text stands alone as the only example of such an effect, and I would say this text is in the realm of Dash Rendar and Q'ira in needing FFG to clarify what does this text actually mean? 

 I cannot deny that you probably have a stronger case than us with direct evidence from the rules reference. ****, I think you might actually be wearing me down on this. 

well, rules as written i should be wearing you down ages ago, since i'm referencing the golden rules. the golden rules are good and should be followed. ten numbs ability has no interactions with magva or han, i agree. therefore, his ability should not be taken into consideration. ten or han are not special cases, though. magva is. that's the whole point i wanted to make. she's absolute.

there are a lot of special snow flakes in this game, qi'ra, dalan oberos and han solo to name a few. all pilot abilities are unique. han solo is a poorly worded mess. while think i understand the intent and really appreciate @thespaceinvaders eloquent suggestion, the rules are not there for han at the moment.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Concur.  This is currently not a possible argument to resolve, because Han's wording is broken, as in non-functional.

[xwingMinty 138]

To be fair while I disagree with you @meffo , I'm actually hoping you are right. The problem with Han's roll is having to roll all the dice, and on average you get 1 blank; so being forced to only reroll 1 kinda plays into his favour.  

[Hiemfire 7,292]

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

You still used the ability even if you no longer consider the dice to have been rerolled by it, once per oppprtunity still applies.

New roll, new opportunity...

[Maui. 2,815]

11 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

New roll, new opportunity...

 

11 hours ago, Maui. said:

Han's ability is not a roll, and so cannot trigger itself.

 

[Ryfterek 1,009]

3 hours ago, meffo said:

she's absolute.

Take a step back to see no one really questions Magva's absolute, golden rules reign over all the re-rolls in the game. You're completely, absolutely right at that. As long as anything is a re-roll, it is controlled and limited by Magva. 

We're only pointing out Han is not a re-roll, RAW by his very own ability. Magva falls into "other game effects" bracket from Han's text, so you apply relevant bit of his ability to her. 

Why should Magva now be a special snowflake to whom Han's "it's not a re-roll" ability doesn't apply? Yeah, I know she's using "a golden rule", no need to repeat that - why is she taking into consideration Han's operation when she's told directly his operation is not an operation she's interested in? 

Edit: now I think about, I bet where we struggle to come to a common understanding is due to how we imagine the abilities apply. To me, Han never "stops to think" whether there are any outside effects limiting his freedom - it's whenever he'd interfere with limitations set by some other effect, that effect "intervene" and stops him from what he's doing. That's why I believe Magva has nothing to do, because from her point of view, there's no re-rolling going on during Han's manipulation. 

Would I be wrong to dare to assume in your understanding, it's Han that realises that there are ongoing game effects applied to him that limit his possibilities - such as Magva's - that he then proceeds to try to fulfill and respect? Then it would've been true that Han himself knows well what he's doing is in fact a re-roll in a camouflage and he has to behave. 

But then, I find this latter way of thinking somehow overcomplicated. If Magva's on the table, she's free to "step in" under her conditions and tell other ship what to do. But I find it weird these other ships trying to murder her are respectful enough to apply her effect to themselves on their own. 

TL;DR: Magva is the source of Magva's effect, not Han, imho, thereby it shouldn't be applied to Han. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Ryfterek