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That Blasted Samophlange

I really want the First Order (and Resistance) and why they are viable as factions.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The implication being that Hux is supposed to be the Grand Moff Tarkin of the First Order?

He's not.

He's not even meant to be compared like that.  

They specifically identify in the movie that Snoke realizes Hux isn't up to snuff.

That's the point.

And let's not act like this scene is the worst attempt at humor in the series or so help me god I will spend the rest of this afternoon spaming this thread with Gifs of Jar-Jar getting farted on, Jar Jar stepping in Poo, teddy bears beating imperial droops to death with sticks and rocks, and droids getting tortured.... 

 

So where are the serious FO in TLJ?  Who are we looking at?

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Just now, VAYASAN said:

So where are the serious FO in TLJ?  Who are we looking at?

The officers under Hux's command. Captain Canady is a fine example. The novel elaborates on it, but it's clear to see even in the movie there's a rift between the upper command and Hux. Every other officer knows he's a tactical moron. (The only reason Hux has his postion is because Snoke knows Hux craves power, and Hux is responsible for all the newfangled tech the FO developed). Canady get's in an argument with Hux (off screen) when Canady orders the fighters to prep before jumping to position. Hux rescinds the command and reprimands Canaday for not following orders.That's why Canady was so pissed in the movie when the fighters were not ready after arriving. (The books even go into how the Officer seen next to Hux and the Finalizer's captain both hated Hux because he wasn't able to lead).

Honestly, it's heavily implied in the movie through the support officers reactions and even outright expressed by Snoke. 

People mad just to be mad. 

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5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The officers under Hux's command. Captain Canady is a fine example. The novel elaborates on it, but it's clear to see even in the movie there's a rift between the upper command and Hux. Every other officer knows he's a tactical moron. (The only reason Hux has his postion is because Snoke knows Hux craves power, and Hux is responsible for all the newfangled tech the FO developed). Canady get's in an argument with Hux (off screen) when Canady orders the fighters to prep before jumping to position. Hux rescinds the command and reprimands Canaday for not following orders.That's why Canady was so pissed in the movie when the fighters were not ready after arriving. (The books even go into how the Officer seen next to Hux and the Finalizer's captain both hated Hux because he wasn't able to lead).

Honestly, it's heavily implied in the movie through the support officers reactions and even outright expressed by Snoke. 

People mad just to be mad. 

I watched the films, I havnt read the books.  The films show the FO leader as somebody easily bested and now gone.  The General is a fool and the main officer in shiny armour gets beaten by a normal trooper.

 

Inspiring.

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Just now, VAYASAN said:

I watched the films, I havnt read the books.  The films show the FO leader as somebody easily bested and now gone.  The General is a fool and the main officer in shiny armour gets beaten by a normal trooper.

 

Inspiring.

That's the point. 

Allow me to say without insult if you see the First Order as an extension of the old Empire. You're wrong, and you're probably looking at it wrong. Again, not to insult. That's the point they're trying to make. This new found organization composed of imperial officers and new recruits is an entirely new system. Snoke is NOT the Emperor. The Resistance is NOT the Rebellion.

The First Order is NOT the Empire. 

Where the Empire led through tactical prowess and training with more subtle campaigns of terror to maintain control, the First Order leads through technological prowess and overt acts of destruction and terror. (If you think about it, the FO primary runs on the same things the Empire had wrong, IE the death star, disbanding the senate, the DS II...ect...)



 

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3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

That's the point. 

Allow me to say without insult if you see the First Order as an extension of the old Empire. You're wrong, and you're probably looking at it wrong. Again, not to insult. That's the point they're trying to make. This new found organization composed of imperial officers and new recruits is an entirely new system. Snoke is NOT the Emperor. The Resistance is NOT the Rebellion.

The First Order is NOT the Empire. 

Where the Empire led through tactical prowess and training with more subtle campaigns of terror to maintain control, the First Order leads through technological prowess and overt acts of destruction and terror. (If you think about it, the FO primary runs on the same things the Empire had wrong, IE the death star, disbanding the senate, the DS II...ect...)



 

I understand that...im just saying they are completely uninspiring, their leadership is dead/pathetic thanks to TLJ and they can start wherever they want on the next film because anything can happen(and has to as the 2nd film linked to nothing...it left nno main enemies or anything for the good guys).

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1 minute ago, VAYASAN said:

thanks to TLJ and they can start wherever they want on the next film because anything can happen

Which to me, is what makes the movie good. They can take the series any direction they want. The FO could rally under Kylo Ren, since he no doubt will not tolerate Hux's crap. Or maybe the FO splits between the imperial remnant and the newer recruits and we see some cool alignment between the old empire and the resistance. Maybe Hux turns on force users entirely? (they are to blame for endless civil war after all) and Kylo and Rey have to band together? There are endless possibilities. 

I think that makes for an exciting installment. 

If we were just reliving the Empire's old stuff, it'd still be fun, but I'd be bored. 

The FO may not inspire, but that doesn't make them less of a threat to the protagonists, they've managed to do well enough through Hux's crap tactics with all the cool new tech. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Which to me, is what makes the movie good. They can take the series any direction they want. The FO could rally under Kylo Ren, since he no doubt will not tolerate Hux's crap. Or maybe the FO splits between the imperial remnant and the newer recruits and we see some cool alignment between the old empire and the resistance. Maybe Hux turns on force users entirely? (they are to blame for endless civil war after all) and Kylo and Rey have to band together? There are endless possibilities. 

I think that makes for an exciting installment. 

If we were just reliving the Empire's old stuff, it'd still be fun, but I'd be bored. 

The FO may not inspire, but that doesn't make them less of a threat to the protagonists, they've managed to do well enough through Hux's crap tactics with all the cool new tech. 

 

Surely a middle film of a trilogy should be a link..not a film where it has no bearing on where the third film starts?

 

As you said..Hux is useless...oh no hes going to turn on somebody.  Its just uninspiring.

Anyways, id certainly avoid FO/Resistance era models buy in(and I have the willpower to resist buying pretty new models of a..well...wargamer)....im sure plenty would get them.just as im sure plenty of other SW/Legion fans wouldnt care less about them too.

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11 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

 see some cool alignment between the old empire and the resistance.

Removing the context from which you had posted, I just really want to see Imperial Remnant engaging the First Order. There are still a lot of Imperials left and though recruitment of storm troopers is no longer allowed, Imperial army regulars is. They also still have a large number of Star Destroyers. People always talk about the mouse avoiding having anything Empire being "morally grey" but I have always maintained most were not evil and this would be a great stepping stone to further expand on the lore and have morally conscious Imperials redeem their name. They abide by the accords and continue to be apart of the galaxy and in the wiki it even states that they could have attacked the heavily demilitarized New Republic but did not. I just feel they are really missing out if they don't explore this.

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4 minutes ago, VAYASAN said:

Surely a middle film of a trilogy should be a link..not a film where it has no bearing on where the third film starts?

They left it open, sure, but there's plenty of bearing to the next film. 

Rey and Kylo are still at odds, a resolution of some sort has to be met and it doesn't seem like Rey knows what to do (much like Empire left Luke reeling about how to confront Vader).

The First Order plans on subjugating the entire galaxy under military control, and the remaining resistance, while small, does seem willing to oppose them. So there will be some confrontation there.(Empire had more direction, admittedly, as the fleet was seen gathering, but I don't think a second death star was the logical conclusion anyone came to, it was open enough).

Finally, and I think most importantly they have to find a way to put a rest to the Skywalker linage, which is why I think it was a very good thing to leave the next film more open. To be honest I have no idea how they can possibly wrap this up nicely without pissing off someone, but I think that was always the case.

 

 

13 minutes ago, VAYASAN said:

Anyways, id certainly avoid FO/Resistance era models buy in(and I have the willpower to resist buying pretty new models of a..well...wargamer)....im sure plenty would get them.just as im sure plenty of other SW/Legion fans wouldnt care less about them too.

I'll be buying what they don't, that's for sure. I have a couple of bottles of colorshift gold paint ready to do an entire army of FO troopers in lol

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5 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

Removing the context from which you had posted, I just really want to see Imperial Remnant engaging the First Order. There are still a lot of Imperials left and though recruitment of storm troopers is no longer allowed, Imperial army regulars is. They also still have a large number of Star Destroyers. People always talk about the mouse avoiding having anything Empire being "morally grey" but I have always maintained most were not evil and this would be a great stepping stone to further expand on the lore and have morally conscious Imperials redeem their name. They abide by the accords and continue to be apart of the galaxy and in the wiki it even states that they could have attacked the heavily demilitarized New Republic but did not. I just feel they are really missing out if they don't explore this.

They are in an excellent position to do this too. Technically speaking, operation cinder was where the Empire started crossing morality lines. In my opinion this was the true beginning of the First Order. Imperials that were so radicalized that they'd kill loyalists went on to join the FO, others disbanded or joined the rebellion before Jakku. 

I'd pay good money to see it happen as well. 

Hopefully (with the ISD seen in the trailer) something of the likes will happen.

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I’d say give it another year and you’ll probably have your wish come true. From the podcast interview, the devs would love the game to get to a point where you can go “what do I like about Star Wars?” And then pick that and play with it. FFG is already committed to clone wars, but after a year or maybe even just 10 months we might see a new core box. I expect within a year we shall see a First Order / resistance core set.

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9 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Technically speaking, operation cinder was where the Empire started crossing morality lines. 

Using a super weapon on multiple civilian targets (Jedha and Alderaan) doesn't count?  30 years of human (and alien) rights abuses, slavery and tyranny doesn't count?

Also, technically speaking, the empire killed loyalists when it blew up the Scarif installation in Rogue One

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Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

I’d say give it another year and you’ll probably have your wish come true. From the podcast interview, the devs would love the game to get to a point where you can go “what do I like about Star Wars?” And then pick that and play with it. FFG is already committed to clone wars, but after a year or maybe even just 10 months we might see a new core box. I expect within a year we shall see a First Order / resistance core set.

I think that's only really likely if Rise of Skywalker has a big land battle in it as Resistance doesn't really have significant ground troops to be interesting, just one unit of core and a speeder (which is actually a Rebel era vehicle). Plus while I like some aspects of the FO aesthetic, their units don't seem significantly different from the GAR or Empire. I could see them being released as "alternate sculpt" Empire, but I'm not discounting the possibility of another faction.

I don't expect any new cores for 2+ years at the earliest, and honestly think that a merc/criminal faction is more likely to be introduced before FO/Resistance. 

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13 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Using a super weapon on multiple civilian targets (Jedha and Alderaan) doesn't count?  30 years of human (and alien) rights abuses, slavery and tyranny doesn't count?

Also, technically speaking, the empire killed loyalists when it blew up the Scarif installation in Rogue One

Well, yes and no. 

Technically most of anything involved with the death star has morally "evil" but at the same time, the machine was designed to end the civil war. Realistically I can't pretend that using super weapons on civilians isn't evil, but considering the actions of my own nation, I also can't pretend like it isn't effective. 

Alien rights? [Internal Imperialism Intensifies]. Jokes aside, while morally "bad" building an Empire on the backs of slaves is kinda how they're made. I know it isn't right, but it doesn't rank quite as as "evil". (I mean, we wanna talk about rights and slavery I'm fairly sure my lips will get burned. My clothes were no doubt made in a sweatshop, also, likely, all the minis printed over seas that we buy... it's less direct, sure, but to the average imperial it was likely the same.)

Scarif was a special case. firstly, it was a military station, secondly, it was to secure military assets. Not quite the same as orbit-lasering civilians just to scare people into obedience. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Well, yes and no. 

Technically most of anything involved with the death star has morally "evil" but at the same time, the machine was designed to end the civil war. Realistically I can't pretend that using super weapons on civilians isn't evil, but considering the actions of my own nation, I also can't pretend like it isn't effective. 

Alien rights? [Internal Imperialism Intensifies]. Jokes aside, while morally "bad" building an Empire on the backs of slaves is kinda how they're made. I know it isn't right, but it doesn't rank quite as as "evil". (I mean, we wanna talk about rights and slavery I'm fairly sure my lips will get burned. My clothes were no doubt made in a sweatshop, also, likely, all the minis printed over seas that we buy... it's less direct, sure, but to the average imperial it was likely the same.)

Scarif was a special case. firstly, it was a military station, secondly, it was to secure military assets. Not quite the same as orbit-lasering civilians just to scare people into obedience. 

 

Cool, so we are in agreement then

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2 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I’d say give it another year and you’ll probably have your wish come true. From the podcast interview, the devs would love the game to get to a point where you can go “what do I like about Star Wars?” And then pick that and play with it. FFG is already committed to clone wars, but after a year or maybe even just 10 months we might see a new core box. I expect within a year we shall see a First Order / resistance core set.

I do certainly hope that.   It is true the resistance is short on units, though, as noted earlier in the thread they have at least two different corps types.   It comes down to vehicles.   

As I have said, aesthetics for the sequel are appealing to me, and as clone troopers have shown, we CAN have very similar and equipped armies have a different “feel”.  There is no reason whatsoever, that the First Order and Resistance cannot be made into viable and different factions.

As I have said earlier in the thread, the Resistance will have to be a different type of army.   Fewer models, but supplemented by more unique heroes, either as commanders, operatives, or unique personnel upgrades.  

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Posted (edited)

TLJ is the best Star Wars movie.

The betrayal of snoke was amazing. He had ultimate power, reading the thoughts of his apprentice. The only way kylo could pull it off was by lying in his own mind to himself about his intentions. such an incredible moment.

Luke finally experienced his dark night of the soul. after his unearned heroic rise in the original trilogy he takes his failure to heart and severs his connection to the force. And why wouldn't he. he was taught there was no "try" there was do or do not and clearly under that brutal philosophy a personal failure hits hard. 

Then his mentor returns, wiser now and accepting his own failures as leader of the Jedi order. Yoda returns and lets Luke know that there is try, and that getting stuff right is hard and that giving up is not the way.

Luke then performs the greatest force miracles in the history of the galaxy and ascends to god hood. (force ghosting is ascending to a being of pure energy, becoming more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

And how about that first order who were clearly defined as bad *** evil in TLJ since you want to move the goal posts around.

The first order figured out how to track people in hyper space. that's the kind of existential threat no one has faced in the starwars galaxy.

A threat so unique that it inspired the resistance to fire a whole ship into them. a tactic that was largely ineffective in stopping the first order's pursuit. they had their flag ship disabled* and still Brough overwhelming force to the resistance.

*it was quite some time after that attack that the first order gave up on repairing the flag ship and scuttled it.

A big theme of the movie was dealing with and accepting your failures. a pretty good course correction for a brand that has up until now been full of Gary Stu peddling "there is no try" philosophy. This is something I imagine sits wrong with people have yet to accept their own failures.

oh and plasma had a cool fight then fell into a pit. JUST LIIKE BOBA FETT

Edited by TylerTT

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8 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

TLJ is the best Star Wars movie.

The betrayal of snoke was amazing. He had ultimate power, reading the thoughts of his apprentice. The only way kylo could pull it off was by lying in his own mind to himself about his intentions. such an incredible moment.

Luke finally experienced his dark night of the soul. after his unearned heroic rise in the original trilogy he takes his failure to heart and severs his connection to the force. And why wouldn't he. he was taught there was no "try" there was do or do not and clearly under that brutal philosophy a personal failure hits hard. 

Then his mentor returns, wiser now and accepting his own failures as leader of the Jedi order. Yoda returns and lets Luke know that there is try, and that getting stuff right is hard and that giving up is not the way.

Luke then performs the greatest force miracles in the history of the galaxy and ascends to god hood. (force ghosting is ascending to a being of pure energy, becoming more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

And how about that first order who were clearly defined as bad *** evil in TLJ since you want to move the goal posts around.

The first order figured out how to track people in hyper space. that's the kind of existential threat no one has faced in the starwars galaxy.

A threat so unique that it inspired the resistance to fire a whole ship into them. a tactic that was largely ineffective in stopping the first order's pursuit. they had their flag ship disabled* and still Brough overwhelming force to the resistance.

*it was quite some time after that attack that the first order gave up on repairing the flag ship and scuttled it.

A big theme of the movie was dealing with and accepting your failures. a pretty good course correction for a brand that has up until now been full of Gary Stu peddling "there is no try" philosophy. This is something I imagine sits wrong with people have yet to accept their own failures.

oh and plasma had a cool fight then fell into a pit. JUST LIIKE BOBA FETT

Commenting before the sequel trilogy haters jump all over you

I wouldn't say its the best (that honor goes to Empire Strikes Back in my not very original opinion), but I thought TLJ was a solid entry in the series.

I remember I saw it at a midnight showing, me and my friends loved it.  Then I heard about some mixed reactions and decided to go back and see it again right away to really judge it objectively before I read more reviews.  I still loved it, and actually liked it more on second viewing.  I noticed that my friends who initially liked it started to trash talk it more as they were exposed to more negative opinions about it.  I think that there is an element of group think going on.  Certainly there are many who didn't like it right away for one reason or another, and that's fine they are entitled to their opinion, but I also think its become trendy to bash on it.

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20 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

The betrayal of snoke was amazing. He had ultimate power, reading the thoughts of his apprentice. The only way kylo could pull it off was by lying in his own mind to himself about his intentions. such an incredible moment.

Luke finally experienced his dark night of the soul. after his unearned heroic rise in the original trilogy he takes his failure to heart and severs his connection to the force. And why wouldn't he. he was taught there was no "try" there was do or do not and clearly under that brutal philosophy a personal failure hits hard. 

Then his mentor returns, wiser now and accepting his own failures as leader of the Jedi order. Yoda returns and lets Luke know that there is try, and that getting stuff right is hard and that giving up is not the way.

...

oh and plasma had a cool fight then fell into a pit. JUST LIIKE BOBA FETT

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this, but I still like Empire better.

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28 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I do certainly hope that.   It is true the resistance is short on units, though, as noted earlier in the thread they have at least two different corps types.   It comes down to vehicles.   

As I have said, aesthetics for the sequel are appealing to me, and as clone troopers have shown, we CAN have very similar and equipped armies have a different “feel”.  There is no reason whatsoever, that the First Order and Resistance cannot be made into viable and different factions.

As I have said earlier in the thread, the Resistance will have to be a different type of army.   Fewer models, but supplemented by more unique heroes, either as commanders, operatives, or unique personnel upgrades.  

The main difference I see between GAR vs Empire and Empire VS FO is that while the Empire's units are advancements on GAR units (Stormtroopers instead of Clone Troopers, AT-AT instead of AT-TE, BARC instead of speeder bikes etc), the FO primarily seems to consist of units that are 1:1 analogues, with some minor changes. Stormtroopers to Stormtroopers, AT-ST to AT-ST, AT-AT to AT-AT (and AT-M6, which I will admit is an upgrade more akin to GAR vs Empire). Admittedly there are minor upgrades in canon to each of these units, but I don't know if all of them are substantial enough to give them a vastly different statline. 

The Empire's troops are hardy but work best with aim tokens, while the GAR appears to be both hardy and able to hit what they shoot at without aims, making them the "elite" army. What style of army do you see the FO being such that it isn't just a reskin of the Empire? 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this, but I still like Empire better.

I share that opinion. (if by empire you mean "The empire" and not The Empire Strikes Back)

first order is interesting in it's own way.

Edited by TylerTT

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